Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

Trailer towing:- B and B+E licence rules explained

Author
Discussion

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Friday 19th February 2016
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R0G said:
No O licence needed but I reckon you need tacho
He's over 3,500 kg plated weight, for commercial purposes, doesn't that come under O'Licencing? Or is this the old multi-purpose vehicle thing? It's been a while since I dealt with the finer points so am a tad rusty smile

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Friday 19th February 2016
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shelf1985 said:
Wow crazy how much red tape there is going on!

Im not condoning or suggesting anything here but if i was pulled and the car on my trailer was my own property (which in theory it is) and i claimed it was going to be for personal use how would it be proved beyond reasonable doubt that it wasnt?

All hypothetical obviously!

Tacho just seems a bit ott for a very occasional tower sole trader.

Mat
Maybe it is a little OTT, and I would guess the chances of a pull are very slim.
However, if you raise any suspicions, then it wouldn't be too hard to check with DVLA regarding your car history.

For your first pull, I would speculate that you could blag it and get away with it, if you get spotted a second or third time though, who knows.

That being said, and again this is pure speculation, but I would guess that VOSA have bigger fish to fry than an occasional tower, although it would be an easy one for them.

shelf1985

138 posts

158 months

Friday 19th February 2016
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jeremyc said:
osts on a public internet forum describing how you are towing for your business?
just trying to further my understanding of the law and what i need to do if anything.

As has been well covered in this post if nothing else its all very patchy and hard to understand.

If you want to turn it into a witch hunt as per many posts that go downhill on PH feel free.

Mat

shelf1985

138 posts

158 months

Friday 19th February 2016
quotequote all
Super Slo Mo said:
Maybe it is a little OTT, and I would guess the chances of a pull are very slim.
However, if you raise any suspicions, then it wouldn't be too hard to check with DVLA regarding your car history.

For your first pull, I would speculate that you could blag it and get away with it, if you get spotted a second or third time though, who knows.

That being said, and again this is pure speculation, but I would guess that VOSA have bigger fish to fry than an occasional tower, although it would be an easy one for them.
Thanks for the advice, is a tacho something that is easily changed between towcars? Never even seen one to be honest but if i was changing my towcar which i do frequently just wondering if its something that could be done DIY or would that incur more fees?

Cheers
Mat

Super Slo Mo

5,368 posts

197 months

Friday 19th February 2016
quotequote all
shelf1985 said:
Thanks for the advice, is a tacho something that is easily changed between towcars? Never even seen one to be honest but if i was changing my towcar which i do frequently just wondering if its something that could be done DIY or would that incur more fees?

Cheers
Mat
No I think it's a pain in the proverbial. They tie into your speedo somehow although maybe these days it's all electronic as tachos are now digital.
I don't know enough about the practicalities of installation to be able to advise.
I know people have them fitted to big 4x4's like land rovers, discoveries, etc, so it's definitely possible to do.
Don't think it's cheap though. I know what I would be inclined to do.

R0G

Original Poster:

4,984 posts

154 months

Saturday 20th February 2016
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No O licence as exemption for dual purpose vehicle

Tacho can be fitted by owner but it must be calibrated by authorised centre

Tacho rules go on goods being transferred for commercial reasons not who the goods belong to

shelf1985

138 posts

158 months

Sunday 21st February 2016
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To set the scene we are talking about my dog car/2nd car/general purpose car with a multipurpose flatbed trailer which i use for All sorts, the car i dont just use for towing.

the runs to the auction when i buy a car that cant be driven for whatever reason are probably never more than half hour each way maybe once a month (*already too late disclaimer*if i did decide to do this) so we are not talking about driving all day and night across europe here just very occasional use when needed.

The law is telling me i cant do this without a tacho, lets say i get a tacho and decide to drive all day and night in the sorento to take the wife and dog to france and back as a crazy example without the trailer just for fun, then next day am pulled 5 miles from my unit with the trailer and have caused an accident tacho says i have done crazy mileage which i have but now im towing and im looking at jail time correct?

I know im nit picking but theres definately a flaw in the law here and something 99% of people like me probably wouldnt even be aware of, earlier on in the thread theres people without b+e (which i have) talking about going as a learner with grans an all sorts so surely im a saint in comparison :-)

Edit to say full apologies to jeremyc for being a bit off previously in the thread.

Edited by shelf1985 on Sunday 21st February 10:47

Timbuktu

1,953 posts

154 months

Friday 4th March 2016
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Hi Rog.

I have a B+E licence so no problem towing BUT:

Is it legal for my friend to tow my kit car with my transit, he has no trailer licence and past his test post '97.

Transit weighs 1760KG
GVW 3000
GTW 5000

Trailer Gross cap. 2000KG (MAM?)
Trailer Load cap. 1550kg
Trailer weight 450KG
Kit car 700kg

My understanding is vehicle 1760kg plus trailer 1150 = 2910 so less than 3500kg plus vehicle weighs more than trailer so is ok?

Does trailer MAM plate come into it?

Thanks!

Edited by Timbuktu on Friday 4th March 22:15

Gtom

1,593 posts

131 months

Thursday 9th June 2016
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After reading something in general gassing I thought I best come here and ask.

My van is 2900kg max and my caravan is 1350kg max which makes 4250kg so on my normal b licence I'm over, or so I though?

The van takes 1100kg so weighs 1800kg empty and the caravan is 1051kg miro so that makes 2851kg actual weight (give or take a few kg's).

If I passed after 1997 but before 2013 this setup is not legal but after 2013 it is legal?

That's how it reads on the government site?!

R0G

Original Poster:

4,984 posts

154 months

Friday 10th June 2016
quotequote all
Gtom said:
After reading something in general gassing I thought I best come here and ask.

My van is 2900kg max and my caravan is 1350kg max which makes 4250kg so on my normal b licence I'm over, or so I though?

The van takes 1100kg so weighs 1800kg empty and the caravan is 1051kg miro so that makes 2851kg actual weight (give or take a few kg's).

If I passed after 1997 but before 2013 this setup is not legal but after 2013 it is legal?

That's how it reads on the government site?!
Illegal on a B licence

When the trailer/caravan is over 750kg plated weight the 3500 combined max MAM of 3500 applies and in this case the MAM total is 4250 so 750 over

The rules for B licence towing are the same for all drivers no matter when they got it and the only thing that changed in 2013 was the scrapping of the rule which said the MAM of the trailer could not exceed the unladen/empty weight of the vehicle
Gov sites are not done in plain English and often leave old revoked rules on the internet such as the pre 2013 ones

Timbuktu

1,953 posts

154 months

Friday 10th June 2016
quotequote all
Timbuktu said:
Hi Rog.

I have a B+E licence so no problem towing BUT:

Is it legal for my friend to tow my kit car with my transit, he has no trailer licence and past his test post '97.

Transit weighs 1760KG
GVW 3000
GTW 5000

Trailer Gross cap. 2000KG (MAM?)
Trailer Load cap. 1550kg
Trailer weight 450KG
Kit car 700kg

My understanding is vehicle 1760kg plus trailer 1150 = 2910 so less than 3500kg plus vehicle weighs more than trailer so is ok?

Does trailer MAM plate come into it?

Thanks!

Edited by Timbuktu on Friday 4th March 22:15

R0G

Original Poster:

4,984 posts

154 months

Friday 10th June 2016
quotequote all
Timbuktu said:
Timbuktu said:
Hi Rog.

I have a B+E licence so no problem towing BUT:

Is it legal for my friend to tow my kit car with my transit, he has no trailer licence and past his test post '97.

Transit weighs 1760KG
GVW 3000
GTW 5000

Trailer Gross cap. 2000KG (MAM?)
Trailer Load cap. 1550kg
Trailer weight 450KG
Kit car 700kg

My understanding is vehicle 1760kg plus trailer 1150 = 2910 so less than 3500kg plus vehicle weighs more than trailer so is ok?

Does trailer MAM plate come into it?

Thanks!

Edited by Timbuktu on Friday 4th March 22:15
Total MAM is 3000 + 2000 = 5000 so 1500 over the 3500 limit for B towing

YOU CAN SUPERVISE HIM UNDER B+E LEARNER RULES


Edited by R0G on Friday 10th June 15:16

Ken Figenus

5,678 posts

116 months

Sunday 19th June 2016
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I know the weight of everything except the trailer as this isnt hired yet but I guess this isn't looking promising. So could anyone kindly confirm that a 1950kg car on a (braked) trailer pulled by a 535d (2000kg braked max towing allowance) is a no go as adding the trailer weight itself will kill that? I have ye olde 8000kg licence but guess I need a vehicle that is allowed to tow about 2500kg to additionally account for the trailer's physical weight? Shame really as the 535d has huge brakes/tyres and self leveling suspension etc - but is allowed not an ounce more than a 518d. frown

Zoobeef

6,004 posts

157 months

Sunday 19th June 2016
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Yes that's too much.

Ken Figenus

5,678 posts

116 months

Sunday 19th June 2016
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As suspected - thanks. My have to buy an X5 as that does a few hundred kg more on same chassis. Wondering how they work this allowance out with no differentiation between model/spec? The mass of a heavier vehicle itself could work against the available grip/braking surely? Minefield probably wink so thanks anyway.

Timbuktu

1,953 posts

154 months

Sunday 19th June 2016
quotequote all
I found a company called S V Tech that uprated the towing capability of my van from 1600KG to 1800KG which made the difference I need.

Ask for Gareth, he is very knowledgeable and might be able to help.

It's not possible on every vehicle but you may as well see.

www.svtech.co.uk

R0G

Original Poster:

4,984 posts

154 months

Monday 20th June 2016
quotequote all
Ken Figenus said:
I know the weight of everything except the trailer as this isnt hired yet but I guess this isn't looking promising. So could anyone kindly confirm that a 1950kg car on a (braked) trailer pulled by a 535d (2000kg braked max towing allowance) is a no go as adding the trailer weight itself will kill that? I have ye olde 8000kg licence but guess I need a vehicle that is allowed to tow about 2500kg to additionally account for the trailer's physical weight? Shame really as the 535d has huge brakes/tyres and self leveling suspension etc - but is allowed not an ounce more than a 518d. frown
The car on the trailer weighs 1950kg !!!!!!!!??????????? = are you sure because that is a VERY heavy car

Most cars weigh around 1500 actual weight and car transporter trailer can weigh as little as 350 kg making a total of 1850 so well within the 2000 toing capacity

Please recheck your weights

Ken Figenus

5,678 posts

116 months

Monday 20th June 2016
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But R0G its all aluminium and has a carbon fibre propshaft even... I think it myust be the V12 and twenty cow hides that makes it portly! wink The BMW 'tow car' estate is 1790 kg so its not that much heavier really - and its bloody huge wink

T16OLE

2,944 posts

190 months

Tuesday 2nd August 2016
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Morning, looking for some advice.

We have a twin axle box trailer, unladen weight, 1030kg.

The vehicle is circa 2000kg.

I passed my test in 2005, can I tow unladen on the motorway with my father, whom passed circa 1997?

Thanks in advance.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 2nd August 2016
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circa 1997? you're going to need to know whether it was before 1997 or during / after.