Traffic control at motorway accident sites

[Derek Smith]

I recetnly got stuc in a toad closure on the M23. Just three lanes into two. The traffic was feeding onto a turn off. That too was chock-a-block so what would traffic control have been able to do on the M-way? Make it fairer I suppose but that was all.

What got me was that on the slip road there were two lanes but some drivers seemed intent on turning it into one. Very strange behaviour.

Having done traffic control a number of times at road closures I still do not have any idea how to keep traffic moving. You can keep signaling drivers to keep moving but some will continue to stop and block the traffic.

[TPS]

Derek Smith said:

I recetnly got stuc in a toad closure on the M23.

Its not everyday toads close the road.

[Landshark]

Willy Nilly said:

Just sweep the debris to the side of the road and get the traffic flowing again asap.

The first incident was a massive fuel spill across three lanes which isn't that easy to brush out the way.

The second was a bit more serious, and not that easy to brush out the way!!!

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2121435_woman_di...

[TPS]

Landshark said:

Willy Nilly said:

Just sweep the debris to the side of the road and get the traffic flowing again asap.

The first incident was a massive fuel spill across three lanes which isn't that easy to brush out the way.

The second was a bit more serious, and not that easy to brush out the way!!!

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2121435_woman_di...

Look,its quite clear it can always be swept to the side or cleared up within minutes.
Just ask any other internet expert.;)

[MrTrilby]

streaky said:

I'll add: are police today trained in traffic control?

Streaky

Not really answering your question at all, but when I was involved in an accident a few weeks ago which blocked off a major route in and out of a town centre, the traffic police were very quick in attending and dealing with the traffic. Plus they were very courteous with me. On the flip side, some of the outrageous abuse they had to deal with from the self important self obsessed public was astonishing. One member of the public saw fit to have a stand up shouting match with a police officer about why he should be allowed to drive through the accident scene (because it would save him a detour), in full view of a screaming casualty, a team of paramedics, and the county air ambulance.

[mph1977]

speedyguy said:

<snip>
The delays are generally banged out to the media, vms miles away (you know the ones you keep moaning about ?)

this is an issue and just shows how little forethought some people have ...

yes it's relevant to put an M1 closure around Nottingham on the VMS around and above Leeds as it gives people the chance to decide to go A1 ( heading towards Doncaster,Newark, Lincoln, Leicester or into Nottm from the East ) M62-M60-M6 ( if you are heading towards Staffs or Birmingham)or cross country ... depending on their ultimate destination ...

[13th]

MrTrilby said:

Not really answering your question at all, but when I was involved in an accident a few weeks ago which blocked off a major route in and out of a town centre, the traffic police were very quick in attending and dealing with the traffic. Plus they were very courteous with me. On the flip side, some of the outrageous abuse they had to deal with from the self important self obsessed public was astonishing. One member of the public saw fit to have a stand up shouting match with a police officer about why he should be allowed to drive through the accident scene (because it would save him a detour), in full view of a screaming casualty, a team of paramedics, and the county air ambulance.

/\/\/\ This when I'm stuck in standstill traffic seeing the air ambulance coming over, I just thank my lucky stars that I'm not the one they're coming for.

[streaky]

TPS said:

Its not everyday toads close the road.

London Evening Standard said:

Of unknown date.

More than 2,000 lust-driven toads yesterday forced the closure of a road.

It was closed by conservationists to allow the toads to reach their breeding lake in Llandrindod Wells, mid Wales.

In past years, thousands have been run over making the journey, contributing to a decline in the lake's toad population.

It is hoped that the 'Toad Watch' scheme, by allowing the toads safe passage to their pond of love, will help the population rise again.

http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/119882-sex-toads-forc...

SWLondoner said:

30 March, 2012

Migrating toads have forced the council to close a Richmond road, as volunteers dedicate hours to saving them from traffic and drains.

A 400m stretch of Church Lane, between Latchmere Lane and Ham Park Avenue, is closed to traffic until April 2 to protect the amphibians while they travel to mating ponds.

And volunteers are arriving at the site most evenings to carry out ‘toad patrols’, picking the creatures out of gutters and transporting them safely to a nearby pond.

http://swlondoner.co.uk/content/3003880-warning-to...

Daily Mail said:

31 December 2004

A country road is to close for three months to allow breeding toads to cross it.

Traffic will be diverted round the 1,000-yard stretch of road in Bath, Somerset, from January to March to allow toads, frogs and newts to reach their breeding grounds in the mating season.

It is the third year Bath and North East Somerset Council has closed this section of Charlcombe Lane to through traffic.

Charlcombe Lane is the most important crossing place in the area for the increasingly rare amphibians. Toads spend the summer in the surrounding hills and make their way to water to breed in the early spring.

This year 619 toads, 43 newts and 131 frogs were rescued - an increase of around 100 on 2003's toad rescue. The scheme is part of the Wildthings partnership.

Rosemary Todd of Bath and North East Council said thousands of toads needed protecting as they crossed the road on their way from nearby hills to lakes and streams.
She said: "I am delighted to announce that we shall be closing this road again.

"The last two years have saved the lives of hundreds of amphibians, so I do hope that users of Charlcombe Lane will understand why it is important for Bath & North East Somerset Council to close the road. We apologise for any inconvenience this will cause."

During the road closure, residents will still have full access to their homes and diversion signs will be in place to encourage other vehicles to avoid the lane.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-332490/Roa...

Not every day, true!

Streaky

[anonymous-user]

Furry Exocet said:

We may be stood around, but we're waiting to be given a task by the Sgt or SIO.

Well could you at least try and look busy? Sweep up some broken glass or something? Look as if you're writing in your notebook, anything but just standing there, arms folded, gassing to a mate you went through Hendon with but haven't seen in yonks on the grounds you're "waiting for the Sgt". Retired pit ponies aren't that lame.

[Derek Smith]

streaky said:

TPS said:

Its not everyday toads close the road.

London Evening Standard said:

Of unknown date.

More than 2,000 lust-driven toads yesterday forced the closure of a road.

It was closed by conservationists to allow the toads to reach their breeding lake in Llandrindod Wells, mid Wales.

In past years, thousands have been run over making the journey, contributing to a decline in the lake's toad population.

It is hoped that the 'Toad Watch' scheme, by allowing the toads safe passage to their pond of love, will help the population rise again.

http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/119882-sex-toads-forc...

SWLondoner said:

30 March, 2012

Migrating toads have forced the council to close a Richmond road, as volunteers dedicate hours to saving them from traffic and drains.

A 400m stretch of Church Lane, between Latchmere Lane and Ham Park Avenue, is closed to traffic until April 2 to protect the amphibians while they travel to mating ponds.

And volunteers are arriving at the site most evenings to carry out ‘toad patrols’, picking the creatures out of gutters and transporting them safely to a nearby pond.

http://swlondoner.co.uk/content/3003880-warning-to...

Daily Mail said:

31 December 2004

A country road is to close for three months to allow breeding toads to cross it.

Traffic will be diverted round the 1,000-yard stretch of road in Bath, Somerset, from January to March to allow toads, frogs and newts to reach their breeding grounds in the mating season.

It is the third year Bath and North East Somerset Council has closed this section of Charlcombe Lane to through traffic.

Charlcombe Lane is the most important crossing place in the area for the increasingly rare amphibians. Toads spend the summer in the surrounding hills and make their way to water to breed in the early spring.

This year 619 toads, 43 newts and 131 frogs were rescued - an increase of around 100 on 2003's toad rescue. The scheme is part of the Wildthings partnership.

Rosemary Todd of Bath and North East Council said thousands of toads needed protecting as they crossed the road on their way from nearby hills to lakes and streams.
She said: "I am delighted to announce that we shall be closing this road again.

"The last two years have saved the lives of hundreds of amphibians, so I do hope that users of Charlcombe Lane will understand why it is important for Bath & North East Somerset Council to close the road. We apologise for any inconvenience this will cause."

During the road closure, residents will still have full access to their homes and diversion signs will be in place to encourage other vehicles to avoid the lane.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-332490/Roa...

Not every day, true!

Streaky

One night I was Ops1 in my force control room when a controller called my attention to a sigle-crewed patrol car. We had problems in Newhaven and Peacehaven and the only car on duty was always some minutes away when called. I knew the officer and she had a reputation of been a hard worker and very keen but it appeared that after every call she cleared off and parked up on an infrequently (at that time of night) used national speed limit road on the edge of her ground. I asked her to phone me.

It seems her inspector had told her that whenever not on a call she was to park up along the road in full view in order to slow traffic due to an anticipated natterjack toad road-crossing frenzy. So the woman would deal with an incident in Peacehaven and then have to drive the 20-odd miles back to the amphibean infested area to 'slow' traffic.

I told her that she should remain in the Newhaven area until released by me.

When I woke in the afternoon I phoned the inspector to see if the WPC was indeed telling the truth. I did not disbelieve her but thought (hoped as I wanted to believe my force would not promote a dolt) she might have misunderstood.

We had an argument, him saying that his resources were for him to deploy and me saying that preventing crime, serious crime, took precendence over some pathetic belief that by slowing cars by a couple of mph toads would, somehow, protect toads.

So for the rest of the shift we told the area car to patrol Newhaven so it was available for the many calls the area had.

I just could not get over to the inspector that the patrol car, driving around a known public order hotspot, would be doing its job whereas there was nothing in the job description to suggest migrating toads took precedance. He kept going on about how endangered they were.

I promised myself that if I ever saw a toad on the road when I was driving I would slow down to crawling pace so that I could be sure I ran it over.

The inspector went on to be promoted to the highest level, concentrated on speeding matters and, thankfully, left my force for one in a principality where his ideas created even more disbelief.

And, as everyone is wondering, no natterjack toad was injured in the moving of the police car. Their migration was, for reasons unknown, delayed.

The following year a bit of plastic was put along the road to stop them crossing and a tunnel created for them to avoid the nasty road where the very few cars would probably not have run them over in any case.

[Citizen09]

MrTrilby said:

One member of the public saw fit to have a stand up shouting match with a police officer about why he should be allowed to drive through the accident scene (because it would save him a detour), in full view of a screaming casualty, a team of paramedics, and the county air ambulance.

Probably not unusual for most police officers to experience something similar. I've seen a grown woman crying because she was told she'd have to wait 10-20 minutes for the road to be opened - as the air ambulance landed ahead of her and in full view, to attend to a casualty.

I've also had people get upset because they can't understand why the police officer (standing in the carriageway on a NSL road) doesn't want to answer their questions about the severity of any casualties etc.

[Willy Nilly]

Landshark said:

Willy Nilly said:

Just sweep the debris to the side of the road and get the traffic flowing again asap.

The first incident was a massive fuel spill across three lanes which isn't that easy to brush out the way.

The second was a bit more serious, and not that easy to brush out the way!!!

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2121435_woman_di...

There does seem to be rather more road closures than there ever used to be. Probably so they can gather evidence to nail some one for some thing, rather than getting the road open. Sweep the worst of the wreckage off the carriageway and crack on.

[Deva Link]

Citizen09 said:

I've seen a grown woman crying because she was told she'd have to wait 10-20 minutes for the road to be opened - as the air ambulance landed ahead of her and in full view, to attend to a casualty.

Any idea why? Maybe she'd been called to a hospital to her dying mother's bedside.

[Tea Pot One]

Citizen09 said:

MrTrilby said:

One member of the public saw fit to have a stand up shouting match with a police officer about why he should be allowed to drive through the accident scene (because it would save him a detour), in full view of a screaming casualty, a team of paramedics, and the county air ambulance.

Probably not unusual for most police officers to experience something similar. I've seen a grown woman crying because she was told she'd have to wait 10-20 minutes for the road to be opened - as the air ambulance landed ahead of her and in full view, to attend to a casualty.

I've also had people get upset because they can't understand why the police officer (standing in the carriageway on a NSL road) doesn't want to answer their questions about the severity of any casualties etc.

I managed a closure years ago where a well dressed city gent decided he knew better than the officers dealing with a fatal collision. In plain sight of the casualties covered body which was lying in the middle of the road he said loudly and angrily "Any fool can see all you have to do is put a few cones around the body and get the road open so we can all get to work!'

He didn't like my response and wanted to complain to the officer in charge of the incident ... He was less than impressed when I told him it was me

[DWP]

I can't understand the writer of the letter "stuck for 6 Hours" I came across the same problem, last Sunday. Got off the M25 going anti clock. sat nav back doubles, got down to Dorking sorted what I was there for, came back up to M25 going clock wise, traffic towards fuel spill was happily letting each other form into single line, well remember smiling couple of girls letting me in front of them, as well as many others with less attractive smiles, off at A3 as well sign posted that second jam was still there. Right through both problems on M25 from West London to Dorking and back in well under 2 hours 30 mins.

[Landshark]

Willy Nilly said:

Landshark said:

Willy Nilly said:

Just sweep the debris to the side of the road and get the traffic flowing again asap.

The first incident was a massive fuel spill across three lanes which isn't that easy to brush out the way.

The second was a bit more serious, and not that easy to brush out the way!!!

http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/s/2121435_woman_di...

There does seem to be rather more road closures than there ever used to be. Probably so they can gather evidence to nail some one for some thing, rather than getting the road open. Sweep the worst of the wreckage off the carriageway and crack on.

There certainly seems to be more collisions, and yes whilst there maybe some temporary lane closures, or the whole carriageway is held for a short time whilst vehicles are dragged out the way, the number of full and lengthy delays are few and far between. It's just unfortunate of this day two incidents occurred close to each other that couldn't be dealt with so quickly.

The aim, believe it or not, is to gather what evidence you need and clear/open the lane/road ASAP, by dragging pushing sweeping or shovelling debris/cars etc out of the way.

Then of course no matter how quickly you clear things there is always the onlookers who keep it slow, or slow down the other carriageway.

[Citizen09]

Deva Link said:

Maybe she'd been called to a hospital to her dying mother's bedside.

No, she was just on her way home, which was less than half a mile away - but only accessible via the road that the helicopter was touching down on.

[Citizen09]

Willy Nilly said:

There does seem to be rather more road closures than there ever used to be.

There's more traffic than there used to be, too.

[chilistrucker]

just wondering. in the event of a r.t.c as they now seem to be called, do the various emergency services liase with each other?
its inevitable that in my job, i'm going to get caught up in the hold ups now and then, i don't mind as glad its not me involved, and admire and don't envy the work the emergency services do at the scenes of these incidents. i have noticed though, that sometimes, there appears to be alot of emergency vehicles turn up at the scene of a relatively minor incident, (say 2/3 car minor front/rear end shunt.)
on several occasions i've seen 2 or 3 police cars, the norm i'd guess, but then maybe 1 or 2 paramedic cars, 2 or 3 ambulances and 3 or 4 fire engines, sometimes more, all for what is clearly a minor incident.
these emergency vehicles are not all turning up at once either, i've been sat at a scene sometimes for 15 minutes plus, (police, ambulance etc already on site) when yet another ambulance or fire engine turns up, not like a foam tender unit or a ladder appliance, but what appear to be just another standard fire engine or ambulance. they don't seem to hang around long if not required.
in this instance is there no way for liason between emergency services. does the first vehicle at the scene take charge. if its established early on that other emergency vehicles may not be needed, can they not be stood down before they get to the scene? just seems a waste of money, resources, and the valuable time of the emergency crews that are not needed.

i know in todays, (ooo i've hurt my neck in this minor shunt) society we live in, and what with health and safety, and set procedure, often a couple of ambulance crews, and a couple of fire crews will be required, for a roof off job and an extraction of said, "ooo i've hurt my neck" supposed injured party.
it just seems alot of the time, abit of over kill on the number of emergency vehicles that turn up.

i'm not having a dig, i have the upmost respect for all the 999 girls and boys, and am even a convert to the work the h.a.t.o patrols do! just curious i guess.

[mph1977]

chilistrucker said:

<snip>
on several occasions i've seen 2 or 3 police cars, the norm i'd guess, but then maybe 1 or 2 paramedic cars, 2 or 3 ambulances and 3 or 4 fire engines, sometimes more, all for what is clearly a minor incident.
these emergency vehicles are not all turning up at once either, i've been sat at a scene sometimes for 15 minutes plus, (police, ambulance etc already on site) when yet another ambulance or fire engine turns up, not like a foam tender unit or a ladder appliance, but what appear to be just another standard fire engine or ambulance. they don't seem to hang around long if not required.
<snip>

From an Ambulance point of view

- One ambulance per patient - few if any front line ambulances in use in the Uk have more than one stretcher any more
- if a 'frontloaded' model of service delivery is in use then a RRV will attend for triage purposes , - ETA - to try and reduce the number or crew skill level of ambulances needed
- if there is an entrapment or several casualties it's entirely concievable that an ops supervisor will attend and /or an immediate care doctor
- if there is an entrapment then a HART car or 4*4 may attend depending on other commitments as HART guys have better PPE for extrication ( turnout type fire suits and fire type helmets rather than a hi vis and 'unskirted' helmet
- if there is any indication of a HazChem type incident then HART will attend as they have better PPE for HazChem incidents
- if the incident is near a watercourse then HART may well attend as they are increasingly Water Rescue trained

from a police point of view
- it depends how many if any people need to be detained
- the presence of supervision (i.e. Sgt or Insp)
- the presence of CIU

from a trumpton point of view
- they will only accept stop messages from their own personnel and not from Police or EMS
- if there's an entrapment then they often want two Rescue Pumps if there multiple entrapments add a rescue tender and possibly a support pump
- similar scenarios with regard to hazchem and watercourses ( adding in pollution protection immediate actions while the EA and HA ISU are mobilised)

Edited by mph1977 on Monday 8th October 02:09