Police and Crime Commissioner absolute farce.
Discussion
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
If you add to that the need to reduce cost to serve whilst maintaining or improving levels of service then the introduction of a new model of leadership that can actually get things done rather than defending the status quo should be a good thing.
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
If you add to that the need to reduce cost to serve whilst maintaining or improving levels of service then the introduction of a new model of leadership that can actually get things done rather than defending the status quo should be a good thing.
Policing is far more complex than the majority of the public see or understand, i don't mean that in an insulting way, but without experience any complex system is hard to understand.
The current model is having to reduce costs, they've no choice as their budgets are being cut hugely. It's not about just reducing costs, it's doing it in such as way as to ensure that services remain properly in place. Lots of rural stations are closing in my area, nobody wants them to close, but unfortunately budget cuts mean that it's either officers or buildings; and that's an easy choice. A local PCC candidate i met told me that he wouldn't be allowing any stations to close, but he couldn't give any explanation of how he would fund this; how could he possibly know, i can't imagine he's privvy to the police budget sheet!
All this talk of who is standing in local areas makes me somewhat confused. The reason for my venturing onto the various websites was to try and find out who I would be voting for in the Thames Valley area.
You are far greater people than me if you find out the candidates. If I'm struggling there is little hope for the mere mortals amongst us.
As for the solution to policing, well that's a far more complicated answer than this farce can deliver. Ironically I think this political excersise will make things worse. It will push the force further into the corner of "traditional" policing techniques which worked in the 1960s but in 2012 serious crime needs to have most of the groundwork done on a computer trawling through data before committing expensive manpower. Just throwing tens of thousands of pounds worth of bodies at an investigation doesn't work. In the same way having a gang of 5 special constables hanging around together in the town centre or on an estate does little other than intimidate the law abiding community who watch as they play at being Jean Claude Van Dame in their stab vests / flak jackets with lots of clip on toys.
People who choose to smoke cannabis and partake in other minor drugs recreationally may be helping to sustain organised crime, but only because the government chooses to criminalise it. The PCCs are only going to exasperate the issue. It won't be long before the underground tobacco supply chain outstrips legal sources. Shops are being forced to sell it covertly, branding is being shunned in favour of easy to replicate anonymous packaging.
I'm no expert, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs recreationally, I drink a bit but not that regularly or to excess, I try not to break the law when I drive but inevitably do as everyone else does, so I've no particular axe to grind other I suppose than the traffic laws but I see a lot of easily correctable mistakes which could sorted but for the politicians, police chiefs, newspapers and PCCs
Henry
You are far greater people than me if you find out the candidates. If I'm struggling there is little hope for the mere mortals amongst us.
As for the solution to policing, well that's a far more complicated answer than this farce can deliver. Ironically I think this political excersise will make things worse. It will push the force further into the corner of "traditional" policing techniques which worked in the 1960s but in 2012 serious crime needs to have most of the groundwork done on a computer trawling through data before committing expensive manpower. Just throwing tens of thousands of pounds worth of bodies at an investigation doesn't work. In the same way having a gang of 5 special constables hanging around together in the town centre or on an estate does little other than intimidate the law abiding community who watch as they play at being Jean Claude Van Dame in their stab vests / flak jackets with lots of clip on toys.
People who choose to smoke cannabis and partake in other minor drugs recreationally may be helping to sustain organised crime, but only because the government chooses to criminalise it. The PCCs are only going to exasperate the issue. It won't be long before the underground tobacco supply chain outstrips legal sources. Shops are being forced to sell it covertly, branding is being shunned in favour of easy to replicate anonymous packaging.
I'm no expert, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs recreationally, I drink a bit but not that regularly or to excess, I try not to break the law when I drive but inevitably do as everyone else does, so I've no particular axe to grind other I suppose than the traffic laws but I see a lot of easily correctable mistakes which could sorted but for the politicians, police chiefs, newspapers and PCCs
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Tuesday 23 October 10:59
sugerbear said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
The leadership of the police service (however defined) really needs to take the initiative, engage with the Home Office and the public and design a model of policing for the 21st century. I hope the do because, if they don't, they probably wont even be part of the debate and that can't possible lead to the best outcome.
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
If you add to that the need to reduce cost to serve whilst maintaining or improving levels of service then the introduction of a new model of leadership that can actually get things done rather than defending the status quo should be a good thing.
Policing is far more complex than the majority of the public see or understand, i don't mean that in an insulting way, but without experience any complex system is hard to understand.
The current model is having to reduce costs, they've no choice as their budgets are being cut hugely. It's not about just reducing costs, it's doing it in such as way as to ensure that services remain properly in place. Lots of rural stations are closing in my area, nobody wants them to close, but unfortunately budget cuts mean that it's either officers or buildings; and that's an easy choice. A local PCC candidate i met told me that he wouldn't be allowing any stations to close, but he couldn't give any explanation of how he would fund this; how could he possibly know, i can't imagine he's privvy to the police budget sheet!
Is it too much to think that, on an issue of this significance, we could assemble a review comprising chief police officers, judges, senior civil servants, business people and politicians to design a non-partisan blueprint for the future of policing?
Once again ClaphamGT3 comes out with the accusation of the police don't want to change. There isn't a single serving or retired officer on here that has stated that no change is needed; in reality all are more than willing for change, indeed have dealt with and supported change over and over again throughtout their careers, plus continue to see many ways in which further changes can benefit the service provided and the fight against the real troublemakers in society.
But ClaphamGT3 doesn't want to hear that as it would involve some change on his part. One note samba. Tiresome.
But ClaphamGT3 doesn't want to hear that as it would involve some change on his part. One note samba. Tiresome.
Henry-F said:
All this talk of who is standing in local areas makes me somewhat confused. The reason for my venturing onto the various websites was to try and find out who I would be voting for in the Thames Valley area.
You are far greater people than me if you find out the candidates. If I'm struggling there is little hope for the mere mortals amongst us.
As for the solution to policing, well that's a far more complicated answer than this farce can deliver. Ironically I think this political excersise will make things worse. It will push the force further into the corner of "traditional" policing techniques which worked in the 1960s but in 2012 serious crime needs to have most of the groundwork done on a computer trawling through data before committing expensive manpower. Just throwing tens of thousands of pounds worth of bodies at an investigation doesn't work. In the same way having a gang of 5 special constables hanging around together in the town centre or on an estate does little other than intimidate the law abiding community who watch as they play at being Jean Claude Van Dame in their stab vests / flak jackets with lots of clip on toys.
People who choose to smoke cannabis and partake in other minor drugs recreationally may be helping to sustain organised crime, but only because the government chooses to criminalise it. The PCCs are only going to exasperate the issue. It won't be long before the underground tobacco supply chain outstrips legal sources. Shops are being forced to sell it covertly, branding is being shunned in favour of easy to replicate anonymous packaging.
I'm no expert, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs recreationally, I drink a bit but not that regularly or to excess, I try not to break the law when I drive but inevitably do as everyone else does, so I've no particular axe to grind other I suppose than the traffic laws but I see a lot of easily correctable mistakes which could sorted but for the politicians, police chiefs, newspapers and PCCs
Henry
4 clicks from the first result on google for police crime commissioner candidate:You are far greater people than me if you find out the candidates. If I'm struggling there is little hope for the mere mortals amongst us.
As for the solution to policing, well that's a far more complicated answer than this farce can deliver. Ironically I think this political excersise will make things worse. It will push the force further into the corner of "traditional" policing techniques which worked in the 1960s but in 2012 serious crime needs to have most of the groundwork done on a computer trawling through data before committing expensive manpower. Just throwing tens of thousands of pounds worth of bodies at an investigation doesn't work. In the same way having a gang of 5 special constables hanging around together in the town centre or on an estate does little other than intimidate the law abiding community who watch as they play at being Jean Claude Van Dame in their stab vests / flak jackets with lots of clip on toys.
People who choose to smoke cannabis and partake in other minor drugs recreationally may be helping to sustain organised crime, but only because the government chooses to criminalise it. The PCCs are only going to exasperate the issue. It won't be long before the underground tobacco supply chain outstrips legal sources. Shops are being forced to sell it covertly, branding is being shunned in favour of easy to replicate anonymous packaging.
I'm no expert, I don't smoke, I don't take drugs recreationally, I drink a bit but not that regularly or to excess, I try not to break the law when I drive but inevitably do as everyone else does, so I've no particular axe to grind other I suppose than the traffic laws but I see a lot of easily correctable mistakes which could sorted but for the politicians, police chiefs, newspapers and PCCs
Henry
Edited by Henry-F on Tuesday 23 October 10:59
http://www.policecrimecommissioner.co.uk/TVP
ClaphamGT3 said:
sugerbear said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
J5 said:
ClaphamGT3 said:
What is the constructive alternative that is being proposed by the Police?
Leave it as it is?Introducing a political figure to the top of policing doesn't seem the best plan to me; the current system seems to work fine.
The leadership of the police service (however defined) really needs to take the initiative, engage with the Home Office and the public and design a model of policing for the 21st century. I hope the do because, if they don't, they probably wont even be part of the debate and that can't possible lead to the best outcome.
It's harder to define an output for the police. That's the problem. Most look to crime reduction. Well crime has reduced every year since its peak in the mid 90s (the British Crime Survey is an independent survey since 1981 that shows the good and bad). So if that's the measure, what's wrong?
New Governments and managers often change things to show some form of 'progression' and justify their existence. Don't under estimate how often this happens.
Got my polling card yesterday and wandered over to the site to have a look, seems the names of the candidates won't be released until the 26th.
Got a leaflet about it all delivered this morning, we can vote first and second choice, but it says if there is only 2 candidates in the area, then there will only be one column and you can only vote for one.
And that's about all the information I have been given, so don't have a clue about it all (except how to vote), am not really upset with the policing here, they have always been good when I or my family have needed them, so not sure what all this will do.
Got a leaflet about it all delivered this morning, we can vote first and second choice, but it says if there is only 2 candidates in the area, then there will only be one column and you can only vote for one.
And that's about all the information I have been given, so don't have a clue about it all (except how to vote), am not really upset with the policing here, they have always been good when I or my family have needed them, so not sure what all this will do.
FiF said:
Once again ClaphamGT3 comes out with the accusation of the police don't want to change. There isn't a single serving or retired officer on here that has stated that no change is needed; in reality all are more than willing for change, indeed have dealt with and supported change over and over again throughtout their careers, plus continue to see many ways in which further changes can benefit the service provided and the fight against the real troublemakers in society.
But ClaphamGT3 doesn't want to hear that as it would involve some change on his part. One note samba. Tiresome.
So where is the evidence of transformational change within the police service?But ClaphamGT3 doesn't want to hear that as it would involve some change on his part. One note samba. Tiresome.
I don't doubt that a lot of re-organisation and tactical/operational change goes on, as with any organisation, but where is the evidence that the police have explored and, where appropriate, embraced transformational change that keeps the service aligned to the needs of the society it serves?
I keep asking this question here & all the BiB/BiB/ supporters keep ducking it.
Unfortunately the commisioners around my area who I know are going for it are complete toffee nosed tosspots.
Was it ClaphamGT3 that said the police force is alienated from the public? Do you honestly think the crime commisioners know what the public want?
They are only there to serve themselves and get paid nearly £100k a year for the pleasure.
I would also hasten to add that most people won't have a clue what the police should be focusing their attention on.
Was it ClaphamGT3 that said the police force is alienated from the public? Do you honestly think the crime commisioners know what the public want?
They are only there to serve themselves and get paid nearly £100k a year for the pleasure.
I would also hasten to add that most people won't have a clue what the police should be focusing their attention on.
The Police have been in a state of permanent change for the whole of my 20+ years service. We regularly get a new Chief Super, along with his hangers on, introducing some new management plan, supported by ACPO and Politicians. It's usually supported by phrases such as
What the Officers at the sharp end do, is just try and carry on doing their best to attend incidents and solve crime (when they're not dealing with mental health, youths missing from childrens homes, constant watches, marriage problems, Facebook abuse etc etc ).
When the next Chief comes along he reinvents the wheel again. As do Politicians. Listening to the nonsense and lies Governments past and present come out with, just makes a Police Officers heart sink.
It's the only Profession I know where everybody with an agenda is an expert and will come along and tell us how we're alienated from the public, don't know what we're doing and they could do it so much better. Strangely, all the decent members of the public I come across remain hugely supportive. It's the 'don't you know who I am' brigade that like to come out with nonsense like that quoted above.
Simple fact. If you cut 20% from a budget, something has to give. Any candidate that comes out and states Mental health teams will have to provide REAL 24hrs cover, cannot use a person having a drink as an excuse to wash their hands of the problem, have to have 24hr reception centers and Police are no longer expected to be the sticking plaster of society will get my vote. After all, Theresa May herself, our switched on Home secretary, has stated we will deal with "crime, nothing more, nothing less" Still waiting for that to be a reality. Good soundbite though.
ClaphamGT3 said:
" a mix of the cognate and non cognate and governance should be in place to ensure probity"
What the Officers at the sharp end do, is just try and carry on doing their best to attend incidents and solve crime (when they're not dealing with mental health, youths missing from childrens homes, constant watches, marriage problems, Facebook abuse etc etc ).
When the next Chief comes along he reinvents the wheel again. As do Politicians. Listening to the nonsense and lies Governments past and present come out with, just makes a Police Officers heart sink.
It's the only Profession I know where everybody with an agenda is an expert and will come along and tell us how we're alienated from the public, don't know what we're doing and they could do it so much better. Strangely, all the decent members of the public I come across remain hugely supportive. It's the 'don't you know who I am' brigade that like to come out with nonsense like that quoted above.
Simple fact. If you cut 20% from a budget, something has to give. Any candidate that comes out and states Mental health teams will have to provide REAL 24hrs cover, cannot use a person having a drink as an excuse to wash their hands of the problem, have to have 24hr reception centers and Police are no longer expected to be the sticking plaster of society will get my vote. After all, Theresa May herself, our switched on Home secretary, has stated we will deal with "crime, nothing more, nothing less" Still waiting for that to be a reality. Good soundbite though.
ClaphamGT3 said:
So where is the evidence of transformational change within the police service?
I don't doubt that a lot of re-organisation and tactical/operational change goes on, as with any organisation, but where is the evidence that the police have explored and, where appropriate, embraced transformational change that keeps the service aligned to the needs of the society it serves?
I keep asking this question here & all the BiB/BiB/ supporters keep ducking it.
Probably because you just keep coming out with BullsI don't doubt that a lot of re-organisation and tactical/operational change goes on, as with any organisation, but where is the evidence that the police have explored and, where appropriate, embraced transformational change that keeps the service aligned to the needs of the society it serves?
I keep asking this question here & all the BiB/BiB/ supporters keep ducking it.
t Bingo phrases.You are just like Stuart on the Thick of It. Be on your way.
Crime commisioners is a load of nonsense. The public aren't interested and don't understand what they're for, and neither do the Police. It seems to be an answer to a question that doesn't exist.
I would far prefer the forces to spend more time ensuring their senior staff are not behaving immorally or illegally and then let them get on with being responsible for policing in their given area.
I would far prefer the forces to spend more time ensuring their senior staff are not behaving immorally or illegally and then let them get on with being responsible for policing in their given area.
So for the GMP post it's a choice between an ex Inspector(lim dem),an ex MP(labour),serving magistrate(independent)a Wigan councillor and NHS bean counter(consevative)and finally a lawyer(UKIP)so far nothing has been heard from any of the candidates despite the tories posting leaflets locally.My choice is Ind or UKIP as I'm reluctant to vote along standard party lines and certainly not for some placeman from the main parties although an ex Inspector does carry a certain gravitas but would he to close to the police estalishment to be of independent mind,so my vote based on the very limited info available is for UKIP's lawyer or the magistrate (who serves locally).
W124Bob said:
So for the GMP post it's a choice between an ex Inspector(lim dem),an ex MP(labour),serving magistrate(independent)a Wigan councillor and NHS bean counter(consevative)and finally a lawyer(UKIP)so far nothing has been heard from any of the candidates despite the tories posting leaflets locally.My choice is Ind or UKIP as I'm reluctant to vote along standard party lines and certainly not for some placeman from the main parties although an ex Inspector does carry a certain gravitas but would he to close to the police estalishment to be of independent mind,so my vote based on the very limited info available is for UKIP's lawyer or the magistrate (who serves locally).
Well I guess from those either the ex copper or the magistrate may be my choice, at least they will have some reasonable idea of what the police are actually up against (or at least that is my immediate reaction. Of course it remains to be seen whether they give a st if elected.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff