Motor Trader & SOGA / Refund
Discussion
Hello
I very recently (2 months ago) began trading part-time in cars with a slight performance edge (retro-classics and similar). I have sold 3 cars in total over a 2 month period.
On Wednesday last week I sold a 1991 Golf GTi MK2 with 160,000 miles. I advertised the car through e-bay but it was sold outside of this. I purchased the car 6 weeks ago with a fresh MOT and it looked in great order.
I replaced the brakes and spent a day or so getting it ready for sale. I did a professional detailed advert description and included many pictures.
The car was sold for just over 2k.
The following day I had an e-mail from the new keeper stating his local mechanic had given the car a once over on his ramp and was shocked at the poor condition of the underside of the car. It would seem that where the rear sub-frame mounts to the floor rust has set in in a bad way. This along with some very poor welding at the front of the car.
The mechanic suggested that the car is dangerous to drive and that the MOT is not legitimate. The mechanic is making out that it would be a huge job to to make the car safe.
Today the new owner has e-mailed me:
I've just spoken to VOSA, citizens advise, trading standards and AA legal team. From what i've gathered from the solicitors is that i've spoken to they said that i cant really take any course of action against the garage that supplied the MOT because i have no contract with them.
I've been in touch with the garage and they gave me a very negative attitude.
What i've been advised by the solicitors that i've spoke to, the trader or private seller has a responsibility of selling the vehicle to a satisfactory standard. These are determined by the make, age, year, mot, value etc.
Due to spending a considerable amount for the age and year and the 6 week old MOT i was lead to believe that this vehicle was of reasonable quality (not saying showroom quality) but instead i've been told that if anything this vehicle is dangerous to drive and i've not touched it since being back in Bristol. it's not like i bought the car for £800 with a MOT running out at the end of the month and nothing was said on the paper work or listing about the rot problem.
Due to that i've actually been advised to take legal proceedings against you, you seem like a genuine person that doesn't want to cause trouble but i dont really have the money to put the car right and i did spend so much to get a nice example that wouldn't need the work doing. I have to look after myself and i hope you appreciate that.
I'd rather not go through legal proceedings so i'd rather ask you if we could come to some arrangement before things go that far - whether you want to take the car back for a full refund or pay for it towards getting fixed?
I'd like hear your ideas on how we can resolve this issue.
The buyer is a very genuine lad and I know he is not trying it on at all.
I am very transparent and honest when I advertise and sell the cars that I am a trader and want to do things by the book.
I know a lot of traders would tell the buyer to jog on and so forth, this I will not be doing 'but' I do need to know what 'legally' I am required to do.
What is to say for example, if I offer some money towards the repairs that he does not seek for more money as the job goes on....
The seller does know that I am very genuine and in no way knew of any of the issues that have been discovered.
Any advice is much appreciated.
I very recently (2 months ago) began trading part-time in cars with a slight performance edge (retro-classics and similar). I have sold 3 cars in total over a 2 month period.
On Wednesday last week I sold a 1991 Golf GTi MK2 with 160,000 miles. I advertised the car through e-bay but it was sold outside of this. I purchased the car 6 weeks ago with a fresh MOT and it looked in great order.
I replaced the brakes and spent a day or so getting it ready for sale. I did a professional detailed advert description and included many pictures.
The car was sold for just over 2k.
The following day I had an e-mail from the new keeper stating his local mechanic had given the car a once over on his ramp and was shocked at the poor condition of the underside of the car. It would seem that where the rear sub-frame mounts to the floor rust has set in in a bad way. This along with some very poor welding at the front of the car.
The mechanic suggested that the car is dangerous to drive and that the MOT is not legitimate. The mechanic is making out that it would be a huge job to to make the car safe.
Today the new owner has e-mailed me:
I've just spoken to VOSA, citizens advise, trading standards and AA legal team. From what i've gathered from the solicitors is that i've spoken to they said that i cant really take any course of action against the garage that supplied the MOT because i have no contract with them.
I've been in touch with the garage and they gave me a very negative attitude.
What i've been advised by the solicitors that i've spoke to, the trader or private seller has a responsibility of selling the vehicle to a satisfactory standard. These are determined by the make, age, year, mot, value etc.
Due to spending a considerable amount for the age and year and the 6 week old MOT i was lead to believe that this vehicle was of reasonable quality (not saying showroom quality) but instead i've been told that if anything this vehicle is dangerous to drive and i've not touched it since being back in Bristol. it's not like i bought the car for £800 with a MOT running out at the end of the month and nothing was said on the paper work or listing about the rot problem.
Due to that i've actually been advised to take legal proceedings against you, you seem like a genuine person that doesn't want to cause trouble but i dont really have the money to put the car right and i did spend so much to get a nice example that wouldn't need the work doing. I have to look after myself and i hope you appreciate that.
I'd rather not go through legal proceedings so i'd rather ask you if we could come to some arrangement before things go that far - whether you want to take the car back for a full refund or pay for it towards getting fixed?
I'd like hear your ideas on how we can resolve this issue.
The buyer is a very genuine lad and I know he is not trying it on at all.
I am very transparent and honest when I advertise and sell the cars that I am a trader and want to do things by the book.
I know a lot of traders would tell the buyer to jog on and so forth, this I will not be doing 'but' I do need to know what 'legally' I am required to do.
What is to say for example, if I offer some money towards the repairs that he does not seek for more money as the job goes on....
The seller does know that I am very genuine and in no way knew of any of the issues that have been discovered.
Any advice is much appreciated.
TROOPER88 said:
Hi
Ask the buyer to drop it back to my door where I will offer a full refund?
From what he has been told I think he does not want to drive it.
If he will drop it back, pay his fuel. You can only offer. He seems reasonable. Ask the buyer to drop it back to my door where I will offer a full refund?
From what he has been told I think he does not want to drive it.
My only concern is that his garage has a vested interest I finding things wrong.
tell him that you are happy to take the car back and give a refund, he will just need to provide a copy of the report from the garage which have stated that it is unsafe, and should not have passed an MOT listing why.
If the garage are trying it on then they probably won't give a written report, and if they do give a report you can always put it in to a vosa test station for an MOT, if it passes then you have been done, you can always auction the car and then try and take the garage to court for the difference
If the garage are trying it on then they probably won't give a written report, and if they do give a report you can always put it in to a vosa test station for an MOT, if it passes then you have been done, you can always auction the car and then try and take the garage to court for the difference
He may seem very plausible , but at the moment you only have his word re the alleged defects .
I think you need to see the car and verify the problem for yourself before undertaking any course of action .
VOSA can indeed investigate any complaint re a questionable MOT certificate and while some problems cannot be looked into beyond the test date , corrosion can be looked at by a VOSA inspector some time after the test - only the test station which issued the pass will get into trouble if the complaint is upheld , if the VOSA inspector gives the car a clean bill of health then the boy's garage are at it . Anyone who buys a car with what they suspect might be a dodgy MOT can ask VOSA to look into it ; they don't need to be the person who booked or paid for the test , and very often are not .
Suggest to the lad that you would welcome an independent inspection by VOSA re this matter since you are as concerned as he is that you might have sold a duff motor , and offer to contact VOSA yourself to arrange this ( AFAIK it costs nothing ) then wait and see how it goes .
If his complaint is genuine you can offer to take the car back , otherwise he or his mechanic will be exposed and you can tell him to do one .
I think you need to see the car and verify the problem for yourself before undertaking any course of action .
VOSA can indeed investigate any complaint re a questionable MOT certificate and while some problems cannot be looked into beyond the test date , corrosion can be looked at by a VOSA inspector some time after the test - only the test station which issued the pass will get into trouble if the complaint is upheld , if the VOSA inspector gives the car a clean bill of health then the boy's garage are at it . Anyone who buys a car with what they suspect might be a dodgy MOT can ask VOSA to look into it ; they don't need to be the person who booked or paid for the test , and very often are not .
Suggest to the lad that you would welcome an independent inspection by VOSA re this matter since you are as concerned as he is that you might have sold a duff motor , and offer to contact VOSA yourself to arrange this ( AFAIK it costs nothing ) then wait and see how it goes .
If his complaint is genuine you can offer to take the car back , otherwise he or his mechanic will be exposed and you can tell him to do one .
Edited by Pontoneer on Monday 8th July 20:53
How far away is the car?
If its relatively close I'd offer to pick it up, on the condition that you can speak with the garage who condemned it as unsafe to drive for confirmation. If they say it is, you can't expect the buyer to drive it to you anyway, so you'd have to make your own arrangements to get the car back to you.
If its relatively close I'd offer to pick it up, on the condition that you can speak with the garage who condemned it as unsafe to drive for confirmation. If they say it is, you can't expect the buyer to drive it to you anyway, so you'd have to make your own arrangements to get the car back to you.
Transmat said:
How far away is the car?
If its relatively close I'd offer to pick it up, on the condition that you can speak with the garage who condemned it as unsafe to drive for confirmation. If they say it is, you can't expect the buyer to drive it to you anyway, so you'd have to make your own arrangements to get the car back to you.
100 miles...If its relatively close I'd offer to pick it up, on the condition that you can speak with the garage who condemned it as unsafe to drive for confirmation. If they say it is, you can't expect the buyer to drive it to you anyway, so you'd have to make your own arrangements to get the car back to you.
I have e-mailed the chap back asking firstly to get a second opinion on the required work and secondly how much financial assistance he would be seeking.
What was said above regarding VOSA sounds interesting. I wonder if I could arrange for an inspector to check the car out.
SV8Predator said:
Very simple.
Ask him to return the car, and you will offer him a full refund and hope he accepts your offer.
If he does, breathe a big sigh of relief.
This is the only route to take. Ask him to return the car, and you will offer him a full refund and hope he accepts your offer.
If he does, breathe a big sigh of relief.
If he doesn't take your offer and decides to take you to court (highly unlikely) it won't look good for him.
My guess is he can't afford the insurance or, as has been said, his mechanic is trying it on.
Just had another e-mail from the lad. As I mentioned he is very genuine and all is above board:
VOSA got back in touch with me after the sending you the message.
They'll be retesting the vehicle thursday from an independent garage, the guy who MOT'd it last is given an option to be there while they undertake the test and i will be given the results. The outcome will be either:
- A document saying whether it would pass or fail if it were to go for an MOT
- If i apposed immediate danger on the road the vehicle will be legally taken off the road and not allowed to be driven (this will be in the worst case senario)
I asked my mechanic how much it'd be he didn't want to give me an estimate - what he said is that he could not see how far it rotted but all the bad parts needed to be cut out to be able to make the repair. The most worrying part is the main chassis box frame where it meets the rear axel it's very badly rotten away and this is where the main weight load bearing is on the rear of the vehicle.
to make a full repair the gar needs to be ripped apart all interior out and the lot he said it'll be a very big expensive job and long job :/.
Would be more than happy to get an evaluation from the independent garage where the test will be taken for you.
Regards
mmmmmmmm??
VOSA got back in touch with me after the sending you the message.
They'll be retesting the vehicle thursday from an independent garage, the guy who MOT'd it last is given an option to be there while they undertake the test and i will be given the results. The outcome will be either:
- A document saying whether it would pass or fail if it were to go for an MOT
- If i apposed immediate danger on the road the vehicle will be legally taken off the road and not allowed to be driven (this will be in the worst case senario)
I asked my mechanic how much it'd be he didn't want to give me an estimate - what he said is that he could not see how far it rotted but all the bad parts needed to be cut out to be able to make the repair. The most worrying part is the main chassis box frame where it meets the rear axel it's very badly rotten away and this is where the main weight load bearing is on the rear of the vehicle.
to make a full repair the gar needs to be ripped apart all interior out and the lot he said it'll be a very big expensive job and long job :/.
Would be more than happy to get an evaluation from the independent garage where the test will be taken for you.
Regards
mmmmmmmm??
i thought vosa will hold the car if it fails...I read on the net...
had a few Mk 2's never had a problem with rust..To me sounds like a chancer considering VOSA is 'involved' why get Trading standards as well. I would say you are going to get an independent inspection as well.
had a few Mk 2's never had a problem with rust..To me sounds like a chancer considering VOSA is 'involved' why get Trading standards as well. I would say you are going to get an independent inspection as well.
Edited by The Spruce goose on Monday 8th July 21:20
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