Joining the Police
Discussion
Greendubber said:
Ssshhhhhhh, let him carry on 
I think the rovingtroll considers the only person who can be productive at an engineering company is the lathe operator. The sales staff don't make anything so are not productive. The person who answers the phone to answer questions does not produce anything, neither do the cleaners nor the driver from Eddie Stobbart who moves the object from the loading bay to the customer. All these others, whilst essential to the process, are not productive. By the same token, those who keep the thoroughfare safe for those who manufacture the goods, the cleaners, the sales staff et al are nothing to do with the process so are not productive. As you say, let's all be quiet. It is probably past his or her bedtime.
Sa Calobra said:
You haven't said what you do for a living yet.
I'm in construction. I produce buildings.I do other things that earn money & arguably help society but I don' consider them 'productive' as there is no production.
Derek- less with the insults, if you please. Also please don't tell people what I think as you don't actually know.
Edited by Rovinghawk on Friday 19th May 22:48
Rovinghawk said:
Greendubber said:
Are you really asking me to explain the role of a police officer to you and how one can be productive?
No. I'm asking you what you produce. Exactly as I said.question.
Yet another thread receives the RH treatment
Edited by Greendubber on Saturday 20th May 08:36
Rovinghawk said:
I'm in construction. I produce buildings.
I do other things that earn money & arguably help society but I don' consider them 'productive' as there is no production.
Derek- less with the insults, if you please. Also please don't tell people what I think as you don't actually know.
Do you disagree that you come under the definition of troll for police threads? Your comments add nothing to the discussion. There's no progression, just barbed insults. Your criticisms of the police service are just that; criticisms so I find it difficult to take on board your request for fewer insults. Try it yourself. I do other things that earn money & arguably help society but I don' consider them 'productive' as there is no production.
Derek- less with the insults, if you please. Also please don't tell people what I think as you don't actually know.
Edited by Rovinghawk on Friday 19th May 22:48
OK, we get it. You don't like the police. One does not wonder why.
You suggest you build buildings. Do you put one brick on top of the other? If not, you are either not productive or as productive as anyone who contributes to it. The police service helps produce a stable society without which there'd not be an awful lot of point in producing anything.
I did not say what you think: I said what I thought. I will continue to post what I think. That's what forums are for.
The police service is not perfect. The police service has faults that should be corrected. In other words it is just like any other role, including that of builder, being a brickie or the chap who drops debris into the chute. I've got a son-in-law who is involved in building buildings and from what he tells me, there are many ways in which it could be made more efficient. Just like the police service. So your posturing is a wee be empty.
Derek Smith said:
Do you disagree that you come under the definition of troll for police threads?
Yes.Derek Smith said:
Your comments add nothing to the discussion.
That can so often be said for you, although you are often more verbose in the process.Derek Smith said:
Your criticisms of the police service are just that; criticisms
How is "what do you produce?" a criticism? It is a question.Derek Smith said:
You don't like the police.
Au contraire, Del Boy, au contraire. I dislike idiots, wasters, the lazy, the corrupt & similar. Any uniform is irrelevant other when it is part of that.Derek Smith said:
Derek Smith said:
You suggest you build buildings.
No, I clearly stated that I produce them.Derek Smith said:
Do you put one brick on top of the other?
I physically contribute but I am not a bricklayer. Please accept my expertise in the matter of construction when I tell you that there are other trades/professions.Derek Smith said:
The police service helps produce a stable society without which there'd not be an awful lot of point in producing anything.
I'm pleased.Derek Smith said:
I will continue to post what I think.
Presumably at great length (with anecdotes). Derek Smith said:
I've got a son-in-law who is involved in building buildings and from what he tells me, there are many ways in which it could be made more efficient.
At the risk of sounding somewhat 'Picard', we all try to make it so. When we have substandard individuals we try to get rid of them quickly & quietly.Rovinghawk said:
Derek Smith said:
Do you disagree that you come under the definition of troll for police threads?
Yes.Derek Smith said:
Your comments add nothing to the discussion.
That can so often be said for you, although you are often more verbose in the process.Derek Smith said:
Your criticisms of the police service are just that; criticisms
How is "what do you produce?" a criticism? It is a question.Derek Smith said:
You don't like the police.
Au contraire, Del Boy, au contraire. I dislike idiots, wasters, the lazy, the corrupt & similar. Any uniform is irrelevant other when it is part of that.Derek Smith said:
Derek Smith said:
You suggest you build buildings.
No, I clearly stated that I produce them.Derek Smith said:
Do you put one brick on top of the other?
I physically contribute but I am not a bricklayer. Please accept my expertise in the matter of construction when I tell you that there are other trades/professions.Derek Smith said:
The police service helps produce a stable society without which there'd not be an awful lot of point in producing anything.
I'm pleased.Derek Smith said:
I will continue to post what I think.
Presumably at great length (with anecdotes). Derek Smith said:
I've got a son-in-law who is involved in building buildings and from what he tells me, there are many ways in which it could be made more efficient.
At the risk of sounding somewhat 'Picard', we all try to make it so. When we have substandard individuals we try to get rid of them quickly & quietly.
Thought I'd hijack this thread rather than start my own.
I always wanted to join the police, from as soon as I can remember thinking about "what I want to do when I'm grown up". My parents didn't think it was a good idea and I sidetracked to forensics... went to uni to study pharmacy (a good route into forensics at the time) and discovered I don't actually like the forensic stuff at all!
So, I ended up becoming a pharmacist... I'm pretty good at that and it's not too bad a job.
But I've always had a niggle at the back of my head that it's not my first choice.
I'm 46 now, been in community pharmacy for 24 years. I am good at my job, but because of this I find myself working in the busiest pharmacies and coming home exhausted every day after managing a team while also having to work flat out as a key member of that team. I can't see myself doing this for another 20 years and I feel I'm running out of time to change careers completely.
So, if I'm going to be run off my feet and constantly have to balance bosses, funding pressures, external inspection, shouty customers (from all walks of life), good-but-constantly-overworked staff (not enough of them) and trying to achieve 100% perfection with EVERY SINGLE SCRIPT that leaves the shop (nobody wants the wrong tablets), I feel like I might as well do it in the job I always wanted
I'm not sure that, at my age, being a PC on the beat would be the best use of my experience (and would be a hell of a pay cut, ho hum. I am fit enough though!). I see there is a route for direct entry to Inspector or Superintendent... could any of the BiB here spare your thoughts on this?
For a start, I'm not sure which level would suit me - I suspect Inspector, but then I do have experience from being on the Local Pharmaceutical Committee when I lived in England (moved to Wales 9 years ago) where I was unexpectedly (to me!) voted as Vice Chair only a year or so after joining as the rest of the committee were so impressed how I dealt with external groups such as the PCT and local GPC. This seems like the sort of experience that would point towards Superintendent.
Other potentially relevant parts of my life - I've been a Scout (10-14s) and now Explorer Scout (14-18s) Leader for over 20 years and about 4 years ago I took up karate along with my daughter. She stopped, but I carried on as I like the fitness and the mental challenge of learning something new all the time.
I know there's lots of reading around the subject available, but this is my first tentative foray into what is a very scary possibility for me - jumping out of a career I know inside out, into the total unknown - and I'd like some friendly advice from the people on here I recognise and trust!
Thanks in advance
I always wanted to join the police, from as soon as I can remember thinking about "what I want to do when I'm grown up". My parents didn't think it was a good idea and I sidetracked to forensics... went to uni to study pharmacy (a good route into forensics at the time) and discovered I don't actually like the forensic stuff at all!
So, I ended up becoming a pharmacist... I'm pretty good at that and it's not too bad a job.
But I've always had a niggle at the back of my head that it's not my first choice.
I'm 46 now, been in community pharmacy for 24 years. I am good at my job, but because of this I find myself working in the busiest pharmacies and coming home exhausted every day after managing a team while also having to work flat out as a key member of that team. I can't see myself doing this for another 20 years and I feel I'm running out of time to change careers completely.
So, if I'm going to be run off my feet and constantly have to balance bosses, funding pressures, external inspection, shouty customers (from all walks of life), good-but-constantly-overworked staff (not enough of them) and trying to achieve 100% perfection with EVERY SINGLE SCRIPT that leaves the shop (nobody wants the wrong tablets), I feel like I might as well do it in the job I always wanted
I'm not sure that, at my age, being a PC on the beat would be the best use of my experience (and would be a hell of a pay cut, ho hum. I am fit enough though!). I see there is a route for direct entry to Inspector or Superintendent... could any of the BiB here spare your thoughts on this?
For a start, I'm not sure which level would suit me - I suspect Inspector, but then I do have experience from being on the Local Pharmaceutical Committee when I lived in England (moved to Wales 9 years ago) where I was unexpectedly (to me!) voted as Vice Chair only a year or so after joining as the rest of the committee were so impressed how I dealt with external groups such as the PCT and local GPC. This seems like the sort of experience that would point towards Superintendent.
Other potentially relevant parts of my life - I've been a Scout (10-14s) and now Explorer Scout (14-18s) Leader for over 20 years and about 4 years ago I took up karate along with my daughter. She stopped, but I carried on as I like the fitness and the mental challenge of learning something new all the time.
I know there's lots of reading around the subject available, but this is my first tentative foray into what is a very scary possibility for me - jumping out of a career I know inside out, into the total unknown - and I'd like some friendly advice from the people on here I recognise and trust!
Thanks in advance
Direct Entry is a Political decision that has been shown to be the farce it is. Many of them aren't lasting two years. You CANNOT be a credible Inspector after a few months training. You might get the pips and the pay, but you will never know how to Police.
If you want into the job, EARN IT. Start at the bottom and work up.
If you want into the job, EARN IT. Start at the bottom and work up.
Police 'produce' in that they sustain the rule of law. Sounds corny, but it really is the bedrock of civilised western society that allows commercial entrepreneurs to flourish and produce wealth.
Think of it another way, what really holds back the developing world? i'd argue that corruption and lawlessness is the biggest barrier to sustained development. I think our foreign aid would do better to support fledging systems in other countries rather than always curing the symptoms. Developing judicial systems and training police forces. Then their economies could develop and support themselves.
Our Police aren't perfect but they're among the very best and contribute to the goodness (for the most part) that is western civilisation.
Think of it another way, what really holds back the developing world? i'd argue that corruption and lawlessness is the biggest barrier to sustained development. I think our foreign aid would do better to support fledging systems in other countries rather than always curing the symptoms. Developing judicial systems and training police forces. Then their economies could develop and support themselves.
Our Police aren't perfect but they're among the very best and contribute to the goodness (for the most part) that is western civilisation.
CABC said:
Police 'produce' in that they sustain the rule of law. Sounds corny, but it really is the bedrock of civilised western society that allows commercial entrepreneurs to flourish and produce wealth.
Think of it another way, what really holds back the developing world? i'd argue that corruption and lawlessness is the biggest barrier to sustained development. I think our foreign aid would do better to support fledging systems in other countries rather than always curing the symptoms. Developing judicial systems and training police forces. Then their economies could develop and support themselves.
Our Police aren't perfect but they're among the very best and contribute to the goodness (for the most part) that is western civilisation.
I agree.Think of it another way, what really holds back the developing world? i'd argue that corruption and lawlessness is the biggest barrier to sustained development. I think our foreign aid would do better to support fledging systems in other countries rather than always curing the symptoms. Developing judicial systems and training police forces. Then their economies could develop and support themselves.
Our Police aren't perfect but they're among the very best and contribute to the goodness (for the most part) that is western civilisation.
OT - Derek - do you have a link to your book On Amazon?
Greendubber said:
You'll find direct entry is not a very popular recruitment method.
I'd always prefer someone with real world operational police experience making decisions for me.
I'd always prefer someone with real world operational police experience making decisions for me.
Elroy Blue said:
Direct Entry is a Political decision that has been shown to be the farce it is. Many of them aren't lasting two years. You CANNOT be a credible Inspector after a few months training. You might get the pips and the pay, but you will never know how to Police.
If you want into the job, EARN IT. Start at the bottom and work up.
If you want into the job, EARN IT. Start at the bottom and work up.
Sa Calobra said:
Direct entry was supposed to be for big business middle managers to come in with new high end ideas that could enable and drive change.
Would you feel confident being scrutinized by those below and above you on decisions that you've literally got months experience in?
Why not become a Special? You'll get to pick the hours, avoid hours of paperwork and get out on response (depending on force). This will give you the best of both worlds.
Well, not the positive response I was hoping for....Would you feel confident being scrutinized by those below and above you on decisions that you've literally got months experience in?
Why not become a Special? You'll get to pick the hours, avoid hours of paperwork and get out on response (depending on force). This will give you the best of both worlds.
@Greendubber - popular with whom
@ElroyBlue - starting at the bottom isn't really a credible option for me, due to the pay. We don't live beyond our means, or even right up to them most of the time, but a near 50% pay cut for several years would cause trouble with the mortgage, feeding the family, etc. Could be done in the short term but not mid-to-long.
@Sa Calobra - the first day I started as a pharmacist I was in that exact situation re scrutiny, and I've lived with it ever since. On top of staff, employer, General Pharmaceutical Council (regulators) and public scrutiny, we pharmacists have the happy honour to be the only medical profession where a non-negligent error can also be construed as a criminal offence.
I'd like to become a Special... but my work is so pressured that it's already seriously interfering with my home life etc, I don't have the time/energy to spare... one of the major reasons for looking for a different job! (Also, the forces near me are not currently recruiting Specials).
Hmmm.
What's the non-rose-tinted view of the HPDS (assuming I'd get near it...) ?
Edited to add: Tell me more about being a Special, as well, please. Maybe it'd be possible with family support... which my better half just instantly offered me
Edited by defblade on Sunday 4th June 15:07
I was in the same position; high pressure main job (well paid) but one Friday night shift two or three a month put everything in perspective. I realised that I was a s
t magnet and it made me realise what hidden strengths I didn't know I really had; running into a dark house with smashed windows with screams and struggling within. It added more of me to my day role. It made me energized and work better. In short it added another dimension to me. Plus what if you did get direct access and hated it? Imagine trying to go back to your old life?
Specials = try before you buy..
t magnet and it made me realise what hidden strengths I didn't know I really had; running into a dark house with smashed windows with screams and struggling within. It added more of me to my day role. It made me energized and work better. In short it added another dimension to me. Plus what if you did get direct access and hated it? Imagine trying to go back to your old life?Specials = try before you buy..
HPDS is alright, but some people as always are better than others. I've known people on it who are great bobbies, some are awful however they all started at PC and learnt the job properly.
Direct entry is unpopular because whilst you can teach people law you cant give them experience and an Inspector people will look to you to make the right decision based on sound operational experience.
Honestly, stick with what you know but joining as a special is a great shout. You'll be more involved in front line policing, have more fun, get to lock people up and give more back to the community.......all whilst still earning good money. Some specials can specialise too, I know a few that work on CMPG, all whilst having a productive career elsewhere.
Alsohave a think also about the impact full time can have on your life, shifts, cancelled rest days, Inspectors dont get overtime, long hours etc.
You could get a happy mix of everything with being a special.
Direct entry is unpopular because whilst you can teach people law you cant give them experience and an Inspector people will look to you to make the right decision based on sound operational experience.
Honestly, stick with what you know but joining as a special is a great shout. You'll be more involved in front line policing, have more fun, get to lock people up and give more back to the community.......all whilst still earning good money. Some specials can specialise too, I know a few that work on CMPG, all whilst having a productive career elsewhere.
Alsohave a think also about the impact full time can have on your life, shifts, cancelled rest days, Inspectors dont get overtime, long hours etc.
You could get a happy mix of everything with being a special.
If you worry about your job as a pharmacist interfering with your home life, don't join the Police.
All these 'extra' Police dealing with the current situation, aren't. They are Officers working extended 16hr shifts, who haven't had a day off two weeks. I have had two Christmases at home in over twenty years. Your days off can (and will) be cancelled at the drop of a hat.
Policing is the most scrutinised job in the country. Everybody else is an expert, especially the bigoted and hypocritical who inhabit the internet. Direct Entry is a massively flawed project and it's only surviving because the applicants are being held up by experienced Sgts, who have to do the Inspectors job for them
All these 'extra' Police dealing with the current situation, aren't. They are Officers working extended 16hr shifts, who haven't had a day off two weeks. I have had two Christmases at home in over twenty years. Your days off can (and will) be cancelled at the drop of a hat.
Policing is the most scrutinised job in the country. Everybody else is an expert, especially the bigoted and hypocritical who inhabit the internet. Direct Entry is a massively flawed project and it's only surviving because the applicants are being held up by experienced Sgts, who have to do the Inspectors job for them
defblade said:
Edited to add: Tell me more about being a Special, as well, please. Maybe it'd be possible with family support... which my better half just instantly offered me
I can't comment on the direct entry as I don't know anything about it. I think were looking at it though. Edited by defblade on Sunday 4th June 15:07
Specials I can comment on though. It wont be the same in every force, and I know some forces are better than others in terms of what Specials can do.
Its a minimum of 200 hours a year to commit to. Works out around four hours a week. In we could do 32 hours one month and have the next off without a problem. I know some people don't like this though as you get deskilled.
Training for me was 13 Saturdays at HQ with two full weekends for personal safety (using PAVA/Cuffs etc). If I'm honest training was crap. I have no idea if its improved as I did mine seven years ago. All my knowledge has come from working or self research. You get taught the very basics.
No idea if its the same at other forces, but we get put with a PC who tutors us. To get certain things signed off (simple things like using the radio to giving a ticket out up to taking details for a crime report, arresting someone etc). Once you've done this you can then go out with anyone who is independent. Then once you can get more things signed off, you can go out by yourself. I enjoy being crewed with a regular as you learn more, but being single crewed means you have to deal with it so also learn. Plus it gets boring being single crewed!
Most of the Specials in work with response (dealing with 999 calls), some work with NPT (local officer for a area) and a few (myself included) with traffic. I love the flexibility you get as a Special. I can pick when I go on duty. I can within reason finish when I want (don't plan to do things after...you will be late off) and it doesn't go down well if you say you are going home just as a s
tty job comes in. Some people moan about Specials, yes some can be s
t. But I've worked with some regulars who are, and I'm sure you've all worked with people in your jobs who are st at what they do. I've only had two people have a problem with me being a Special. Which in seven years and over 1,400 hours a year isn't bad! You will need family support. Someone who understands that you might be late home and plans have to be cancelled.
If you have any specific questions just ask. Happy for you to email me, and I'm sure I can find someone in the force you would be looking at to answer any specific questions.
Edited by LosingGrip on Sunday 27th January 12:38
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