Old Soldiers being hounded by threats of legal action in NI
Discussion
Please mods can this be given an airing here for a while? It is a legal matter after all. Please can you lot look into signing this petition to stop the hounding of soldiers who are now old men. They carried out their duties but unlike the terrorists who were effectively pardoned even though there are many murderers amongst them they continue to have their senior years blighted by threats of legal action. They are after all an easy target.
https://www.change.org/p/sir-michael-fallon-mp-sup...
If this could be spread about via those of you that Facebook and Twitter this could force a parliamentary debate.if enough support is gained.
https://www.change.org/p/sir-michael-fallon-mp-sup...
If this could be spread about via those of you that Facebook and Twitter this could force a parliamentary debate.if enough support is gained.
Why shouldn't they be held accountable for their actions. Terrorists like the uvf, lvf, ira etc are a different matter. They're terrorists, that is what they do. Members of the British army are different. They're representing the British government so should be expected to pay the price for crimes they committed. When the people who are supposed to uphold the law break the law, there is no law. Saying oh that loyalist or republican paramilitary murdered someone and got off with it because of the Good Friday agreement isn't an excuse. If a British soldier murders in cold blood, which many did, they should pay the price. Lead by example.
Emanresu said:
Why shouldn't they be held accountable for their actions. Terrorists like the uvf, lvf, ira etc are a different matter. They're terrorists, that is what they do. Members of the British army are different. They're representing the British government so should be expected to pay the price for crimes they committed. When the people who are supposed to uphold the law break the law, there is no law. Saying oh that loyalist or republican paramilitary murdered someone and got off with it because of the Good Friday agreement isn't an excuse. If a British soldier murders in cold blood, which many did, they should pay the price. Lead by example.
Pretty much this.Would people apply the same arguement to the Police?
Emanresu said:
Why shouldn't they be held accountable for their actions. Terrorists like the uvf, lvf, ira etc are a different matter. They're terrorists, that is what they do. Members of the British army are different. They're representing the British government so should be expected to pay the price for crimes they committed. When the people who are supposed to uphold the law break the law, there is no law. Saying oh that loyalist or republican paramilitary murdered someone and got off with it because of the Good Friday agreement isn't an excuse. If a British soldier murders in cold blood, which many did, they should pay the price. Lead by example.
They were held accountable for their actions at the time. Unless compelling evidence has emerged why investigate every death again.And the many cold bloodied murders by british soldiers? Other than when soldiers have been convicted of murder can you shed light on the many others?
Edited by Frenchda on Thursday 26th January 12:43
Frenchda said:
They were held accountable for their actions at the time. Unless compelling evidence has emerged why investigate every death again.
And the many cold bloodied murders by british soldiers? Other than when soldiers have been convicted of murder can you shed light on the many others?
Held accountable how? How many Soldiers have been convicted and served time in prison for crimes in the North of Ireland?And the many cold bloodied murders by british soldiers? Other than when soldiers have been convicted of murder can you shed light on the many others?
Edited by Frenchda on Thursday 26th January 12:43
The irony of this is that if fault had been admitted at the time instead of blanket denial of any wrongdoing by the armed forces then the military may well have been included in the Good Friday Agreement pardons which benefited both IRA and Loyalist terrorists.
Ultimately the pardons were the price of a peace which thankfully lasts to this day.
The whitewash reports issued at the time which have now been discredited have come back to bite them in the ass.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jun/15/bloody-...
Frenchda said:
They were held accountable for their actions at the time. Unless compelling evidence has emerged why investigate every death again.
And the many cold bloodied murders by british soldiers? Other than when soldiers have been convicted of murder can you shed light on the many others?
Let's start with the murder of 13 innocent civilians taking part in a non violent civil rights march in Londonderry in 1972. How many of those soldiers did time for the murders they committed?And the many cold bloodied murders by british soldiers? Other than when soldiers have been convicted of murder can you shed light on the many others?
Edited by Frenchda on Thursday 26th January 12:43
When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
Frenchda said:
Unless compelling evidence has emerged why investigate every death again.
Because there is plenty of hard cash to be made by scum solicitors in fees and waving an incentive of "compensation" to get people to testify.Edited by Frenchda on Thursday 26th January 12:43
The only people who will benefit are the solicitor firms.
No real justice will be served for the very few cases that warrant it.
If you want to go after one side of the conflict then you have to go after the other, so in my view, morally they should only be doing this if they recall to prison EVERY scumbag let out under the good friday agreement and re-open investigations against them for unsolved soldier murders.
Emanresu said:
Why shouldn't they be held accountable for their actions. Terrorists like the uvf, lvf, ira etc are a different matter. They're terrorists, that is what they do. Members of the British army are different. They're representing the British government so should be expected to pay the price for crimes they committed. When the people who are supposed to uphold the law break the law, there is no law. Saying oh that loyalist or republican paramilitary murdered someone and got off with it because of the Good Friday agreement isn't an excuse. If a British soldier murders in cold blood, which many did, they should pay the price. Lead by example.
Can you substantiate the bit in bold?You seem very sure of it based on something.
Emanresu said:
Let's start with the murder of 13 innocent civilians taking part in a non violent civil rights march in Londonderry in 1972. How many of those soldiers did time for the murders they committed?
When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
I did grow up in NI in 70's and 80s. When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
The man who shot my great uncle was released under the GFA. The three men that killed a family friend whilst he sat in a bar drinking were released under the GFA. My first girlfriend's father was murdered by Bernard McGinn and Michael Caraher, the South Armagh Sniper team, - both jailed for many years, but again walked free under the GFA.
The man who I understand authorised each and every one of these murders whilst holding a senior role on the IRA Army council, very publically stood down from politics last week.
The Army were working against low-life, underhand, guerrilla terrorists, who, in my opinion, totally deserved to be ripped apart by British bullets.
But if the British government, rightly or wrongly, can let bygones be bygones in the interests of "peace", why can the Republican movement not?
And if convicted murderers can be pardoned on one side, please do explain to me why you think that those on the other side can't?
I've just seen your further post about 'Bloody Sunday' - having spoken to soldiers who were there on the day, I was given another side to the stroy which exonerated the claim that they fired first and for no reason.
As for collusion with paramilitaries, that was often linked to the UDR, not other soldiers, but your statement does not differentiate.
No one should be free to commit murder, however, your suggestions that soldiers seem to enjoy it, alongside causing hurt and misery doesn't stand up versus the thousands who have, and continue, to serve(d).
I dare say each side during the Troubles has its issues, but making blanket statements as if the soldiers were really the guilty party is not a reflection of the real case
As for collusion with paramilitaries, that was often linked to the UDR, not other soldiers, but your statement does not differentiate.
No one should be free to commit murder, however, your suggestions that soldiers seem to enjoy it, alongside causing hurt and misery doesn't stand up versus the thousands who have, and continue, to serve(d).
I dare say each side during the Troubles has its issues, but making blanket statements as if the soldiers were really the guilty party is not a reflection of the real case
S11Steve said:
I did grow up in NI in 70's and 80s.
The man who shot my great uncle was released under the GFA. The three men that killed a family friend whilst he sat in a bar drinking were released under the GFA. My first girlfriend's father was murdered by Bernard McGinn and Michael Caraher, the South Armagh Sniper team, - both jailed for many years, but again walked free under the GFA.
The man who I understand authorised each and every one of these murders whilst holding a senior role on the IRA Army council, very publically stood down from politics last week.
The Army were working against low-life, underhand, guerrilla terrorists, who, in my opinion, totally deserved to be ripped apart by British bullets.
But if the British government, rightly or wrongly, can let bygones be bygones in the interests of "peace", why can the Republican movement not?
And if convicted murderers can be pardoned on one side, please do explain to me why you think that those on the other side can't?
I am very truly sorry for your losses. I too have lost friends and family members, mostly murdered by loyalist terrorists and once by republicans claiming it was a 'mistake'. The man who shot my great uncle was released under the GFA. The three men that killed a family friend whilst he sat in a bar drinking were released under the GFA. My first girlfriend's father was murdered by Bernard McGinn and Michael Caraher, the South Armagh Sniper team, - both jailed for many years, but again walked free under the GFA.
The man who I understand authorised each and every one of these murders whilst holding a senior role on the IRA Army council, very publically stood down from politics last week.
The Army were working against low-life, underhand, guerrilla terrorists, who, in my opinion, totally deserved to be ripped apart by British bullets.
But if the British government, rightly or wrongly, can let bygones be bygones in the interests of "peace", why can the Republican movement not?
And if convicted murderers can be pardoned on one side, please do explain to me why you think that those on the other side can't?
I have never said that it was right that paramilitaries, both loyalist and republican should be pardoned but that is what the vast majority of people in NI voted for in the Good Friday agreement.
As stated by another poster above, the reason these soldiers are now being chased. When the Good Friday agreement came around, the British had denied any wrongdoing. They had a chance to come clean, be real men, but they didn't do it. If they had done so, they probably would have been pardoned. And my original argument also stands, the British army should have been leading by example but they didn't. Far from it.
People are now starting to wake up and see things and think for themselves rather than just getting sucked into the good old NI way of blindly following what their parents taught them, that the other side is bad. The truth is they're all bad. Anyone who can take the life of another human being in my eyes, is an animal. Even more so when it's an innocent life.
Emanresu said:
Let's start with the murder of 13 innocent civilians taking part in a non violent civil rights march in Londonderry in 1972. How many of those soldiers did time for the murders they committed?
When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
The refreshing thing about the GFA was that it suggested there could be and end to the suffering of generations of people who have been affected by the civil war in NI. Few other countries have made a move such as the UK did with power sharing. It gave a chance for NI to move on once those affected realised that although it required a sacrifice on behalf of all sides, the benefits would outweigh it. When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
Those who look for pure answers will be disappointed. Those who seek the truth, whilst they should be lauded, will be disappointed as it doesn't exist.
One of the inspiring things about the GFA was that it has survived for so long. Perhaps that's because so many people realise that it is their best hope.
It's over at the moment. This isn't a victory for one side over the other like, for instance, WWII. The GFA was a plan, one which demanded a lot from both sides. The last thing it needs is an argument about who did most to whom.
I applaud those who have moved on. It takes maturity and faith, not to mention hope for the future of NI.
Those that haven't are the enemy of both 'sides' and, at the moment, have more guilt than the bombers and the soldiers.
Emanresu said:
Let's start with the murder of 13 innocent civilians taking part in a non violent civil rights march in Londonderry in 1972. How many of those soldiers did time for the murders they committed?
When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
Isn't that the point? Pardons and forgiveness all round, draw a line and head to the future without reference to the past? When we're at it let's add in the numerous times police and soldiers colluded with paramilitaries to get people wiped out.
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
It really sickens me, the whole, blinkered attitude that 'our troops' can do no wrong. Open your eyes people. You have to remember that not everyone in the army is a normal, well adjusted human being. Some of these people are sick and mentally ill psychopaths who take pleasure in shedding blood. I used to have a friend in the armed forces. I'll never forget when he came back from Afghanistan and was telling me stories. When he told me that hunting the taliban was just like going out and hunting rabbits and it was fun to watch bullets going into a human body, I left the room and never spoke to him again.
Do you really want me to support people like this?
If you start raking who did what up in the province we'll be here all week - and the final tally will be heavily weighted to the provos...
I was in the TA in the 80s and 90s. We had a regular soldier attached to HQ in a very low profile role. He was apparently on the IRA 'kill' list. It resulted in the TA Centre being bombed, luckily nobody there at the time, but obviously a total disregard for anybody else. So why should those bombers be let off, if the soldier is prosecuted?
S11Steve said:
The man who shot my great uncle was released under the GFA. The three men that killed a family friend whilst he sat in a bar drinking were released under the GFA. My first girlfriend's father was murdered by Bernard McGinn and Michael Caraher, the South Armagh Sniper team, - both jailed for many years, but again walked free under the GFA.
Firstly, sorry for your losses. Is part of your story above some the reason why the soldiers are still being pursued?
In the example you set out above 'most' of those directly responsible were caught, tried, sentenced a served some time for the crimes they committed.
I have no doubt you feel that you were denied full justice when they were released under the GFA.
There has never been any real justice for the families of victims of the soldiers crimes.
How many have been convicted? How much time was served?
Is this and the fact that there appears to have been an active whitewash part of the reason why it is still so raw?
I'm not trying to be insensitive to your situation, so I'll apologise in advance if I cause any offence.
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