Old Soldiers being hounded by threats of legal action in NI
Discussion
I think the price for the peace is effectively pardons for the terrorists as others have said. However, even assuming soldiers did murder & 'take out' people, what is achieved by digging this all up again?
Perhaps the South African model should be looked at again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconcilia...
Maybe justice will not be seen to have been done, but at least there would be some sort of closure....
Perhaps the South African model should be looked at again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth_and_Reconcilia...
Maybe justice will not be seen to have been done, but at least there would be some sort of closure....
HughiusMaximus said:
Firstly, sorry for your losses.
Is part of your story above some the reason why the soldiers are still being pursued?
In the example you set out above 'most' of those directly responsible were caught, tried, sentenced a served some time for the crimes they committed.
I have no doubt you feel that you were denied full justice when they were released under the GFA.
There has never been any real justice for the families of victims of the soldiers crimes.
How many have been convicted? How much time was served?
Is this and the fact that there appears to have been an active whitewash part of the reason why it is still so raw?
I'm not trying to be insensitive to your situation, so I'll apologise in advance if I cause any offence.
No offence taken - but similarly, which soldiers' crimes are you referring to? Part of the problem is that anyone who was on the wrong end of an SA80 bullet was automatically deemed by half of the population to be an innocent victim, but then Gerry and Martin would be carrying their coffins, and they'd get a 21 gun salute at Milltown cemetery by a bunch of other balaclava'd future innocent victims...Is part of your story above some the reason why the soldiers are still being pursued?
In the example you set out above 'most' of those directly responsible were caught, tried, sentenced a served some time for the crimes they committed.
I have no doubt you feel that you were denied full justice when they were released under the GFA.
There has never been any real justice for the families of victims of the soldiers crimes.
How many have been convicted? How much time was served?
Is this and the fact that there appears to have been an active whitewash part of the reason why it is still so raw?
I'm not trying to be insensitive to your situation, so I'll apologise in advance if I cause any offence.
Let's not forget that Northern Ireland has always had what is known as the "real truth", and the "official truth". The official truth may be seen as a whitewash, but both sides know exactly what was going on, by whom, and when, against whom, etc but rarely was this local knowledge made official. There are so many open secrets that are not publicly discussed it is comical.
Was there a "shoot to kill" policy? Officially I think the answer is still "no", however if you are tasked with stopping a terrorist, who is known to be armed on a regular basis, who is known to have killed soldiers, who is known to associate with other armed killers, who is known to have an arms cache hidden in his grannies coal bunker, realistically, are you going to saunter up them and politely ask them to place their hands in a set of cuffs, and follow you to the local Police barracks for tea and biscuits?
Emanresu said:
As stated by another poster above, the reason these soldiers are now being chased. When the Good Friday agreement came around, the British had denied any wrongdoing. They had a chance to come clean, be real men, but they didn't do it. If they had done so, they probably would have been pardoned. And my original argument also stands, the British army should have been leading by example but they didn't. Far from it.
There is no denying it was a "dirty war", maybe the British Army should have been leading by example, but then the British Army were not bombing hotels, shopping centres, railway lines, shooting up pubs indiscriminately or planting bombs under cars. There is a convincing argument that diplomatic methods were failing, and the only way was to fight fire with fire.
Emanresu said:
People are now starting to wake up and see things and think for themselves rather than just getting sucked into the good old NI way of blindly following what their parents taught them, that the other side is bad. The truth is they're all bad.
I've mentioned this quite recently on another thread, I took my other half to Northern Ireland in September for a family funeral and she was nervous about the whole place - she'd never been before, and recalls the daily news stories as she was growing up. The truth is, the main problems are definitely class led - you see sink estates all over the UK, but only in Northern Ireland and maybe Glasgow, is there a sectarian element to it all. They are still blindly following the parental lead, or at least they certainly seemed to be 4 months ago.
Outside of those estates, Catholics and Protestants live side by side, and have done for some time, with no problems. And then further up the food chain are the politicians who think they are representing their people, but in reality, I think they are simply perpetuating a feud that has run for centuries.
Emanresu said:
Anyone who can take the life of another human being in my eyes, is an animal. Even more so when it's an innocent life.
Indeed, that goes for both sides. But going back to the leading by example, 2058 deaths were attributable to Republican paramilitaries of which 723 were considered civilians, 1027 by loyalist paramilitaries of which 878 were civilians, and 363 in total by the combined security forces of the British Army and Police/RUC. It's pretty clear that there were considerably more victims of the resident populations of animals than any invading force of animals
Emanresu said:
You should have tried growing up in Northern Ireland in the 70s. It was so much fun. Sleeping in bed at night, the army breaking into your house and forcing everyone downstairs at gunpoint while they proceeded to completely trash your house for no other reason than you have the wrong surname.
There was another reason... "Look Ma, those b
d Brits are raiding that house over there!!" "Quick, let's all crowd roun' and throw bricks (or flegs) and spit on the them - call the neighbours too for a bit of craic"
In the meantime, another team are undisturbed, planting listening devices in the curtain poles of a known brigade commander.
There is an element of onesideness needing addressed. Prior to Good Friday IRA killings were properly investigated and perpetrators were jailed if proven guilty. To this day they are convicted murderers and I'm sure they are released on licence and could be returned to prison should the cease-fire break down.
In the interest of fairness old soldiers suspected of unlawful killings (and some where there were no prosecutions were incredibly dodgy) should be investigated, stand trial and if found guilty be released under the same conditions.
Soldiers remain free, justice is seen to be done. Everybody happy.
In the interest of fairness old soldiers suspected of unlawful killings (and some where there were no prosecutions were incredibly dodgy) should be investigated, stand trial and if found guilty be released under the same conditions.
Soldiers remain free, justice is seen to be done. Everybody happy.
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Thursday 26th January 20:10
elanfan said:
Please mods can this be given an airing here for a while? It is a legal matter after all. Please can you lot look into signing this petition to stop the hounding of soldiers who are now old men. They carried out their duties but unlike the terrorists who were effectively pardoned even though there are many murderers amongst them they continue to have their senior years blighted by threats of legal action. They are after all an easy target.
https://www.change.org/p/sir-michael-fallon-mp-sup...
If this could be spread about via those of you that Facebook and Twitter this could force a parliamentary debate.if enough support is gained.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-oharehttps://www.change.org/p/sir-michael-fallon-mp-sup...
If this could be spread about via those of you that Facebook and Twitter this could force a parliamentary debate.if enough support is gained.
He was some "soldier"
She was 12 years old and he shot her twice in the back.
ArmaghMan said:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministr...
He was some "soldier"
She was 12 years old and he shot her twice in the back.
Terrible, and I'm sure everyone agrees. A tragedy amongst countless others.He was some "soldier"
She was 12 years old and he shot her twice in the back.
He'll not make Deputy First Minister and shake the Queens hand, that's for sure.
andy_s said:
He'll not make Deputy First Minister and shake the Queens hand, that's for sure.
FFS, I've lost count of the number of times I've heard wee digs like this. Do you not realise that without people like McGuinness changing their views, NI would probably still be balls deep in the 'Troubles'?If Paisley and McGuinness could become great friends then that tells you something. Ye want to maybe grow up and move on?
Skyrat said:
andy_s said:
He'll not make Deputy First Minister and shake the Queens hand, that's for sure.
FFS, I've lost count of the number of times I've heard wee digs like this. Do you not realise that without people like McGuinness changing their views, NI would probably still be balls deep in the 'Troubles'?If Paisley and McGuinness could become great friends then that tells you something. Ye want to maybe grow up and move on?
I wasn't having a dig (read my post before), I'm highlighting that on one side is heavy 'forgiveness' and if there is the capability to do that (MM shaking HMQs hand) then there should be room for letting go of the incident mentioned, galling though it may be.
I'm grown up enough already thanks all the same, and moving on is what I'm extolling (again, read my previous post).
Thanks.
andy_s said:
I wasn't having a dig (read my post before), I'm highlighting that on one side is heavy 'forgiveness'
It balances that prior to GFA one side was heavy in pursuing and prosecuting killers (and justifiably so) while many of its own killers (and I'm talking about situations like the one above) walked free.If these soldiers are above the law then there was no law. Just men with guns killing each other. No one any better or worse than each other. If one was a murdering scumbag they all were.
If one side wants to be the good guys, the side of law and order and brand the others as criminal they have to abide by their laws.
Edited by Tannedbaldhead on Friday 27th January 09:28
In my relatively simple view: justice has to be done, and seen to be done.
Perceived injustices hidden or whitewashed need to be aired, if only to prevent the poison carrying on to any future generations.
Any convictions that are made are then simply pardoned, which ensures parity with the crimes of terrorists.
I can see it being a pee boiler, but if you want something to change, you have to start doing something different.
Ian
Perceived injustices hidden or whitewashed need to be aired, if only to prevent the poison carrying on to any future generations.
Any convictions that are made are then simply pardoned, which ensures parity with the crimes of terrorists.
I can see it being a pee boiler, but if you want something to change, you have to start doing something different.
Ian
Ian Geary said:
In my relatively simple view: justice has to be done, and seen to be done.
Perceived injustices hidden or whitewashed need to be aired, if only to prevent the poison carrying on to any future generations.
Any convictions that are made are then simply pardoned, which ensures parity with the crimes of terrorists.
I can see it being a pee boiler, but if you want something to change, you have to start doing something different.
Ian
Spot on. Perceived injustices hidden or whitewashed need to be aired, if only to prevent the poison carrying on to any future generations.
Any convictions that are made are then simply pardoned, which ensures parity with the crimes of terrorists.
I can see it being a pee boiler, but if you want something to change, you have to start doing something different.
Ian
Any hand wringers here should perhaps consider why the reluctance for people to join the armed forces or armed police today.
Perhaps the fact that up to 40 years after serving you run the risk of being dropped in the st by an uncaring employer?
The GFA were a complete one sided farce, and the people responsible should be taken out and shot themselves. This should only ever have been a complete writing the slate clean affair or it's completely meaningless. I'm utterly dismayed that we fell, for it and absolved arguably the very worst side and are still hounding down the other years later.
The only consolation is that the likes of Phil Shiner did get their comeuppance in the end.
Perhaps the fact that up to 40 years after serving you run the risk of being dropped in the s
t by an uncaring employer?The GFA were a complete one sided farce, and the people responsible should be taken out and shot themselves. This should only ever have been a complete writing the slate clean affair or it's completely meaningless. I'm utterly dismayed that we fell, for it and absolved arguably the very worst side and are still hounding down the other years later.
The only consolation is that the likes of Phil Shiner did get their comeuppance in the end.
For those who don't know who Phil Shiner is or what his comeuppance entailed.
http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/12/legal-profession...
http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/solicitor-check/09...
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/phil-shiner-...
Although the underlying issues may be thought to be similar, Shiner's activites were to do with the British Army's presence in Iraq, not NI.
Despite the name, Danny Boy had nothing to do with the troubles in NI. Don't confuse Amarah with Armagh.
http://www.legalcheek.com/2016/12/legal-profession...
http://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/solicitor-check/09...
https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/practice/phil-shiner-...
Although the underlying issues may be thought to be similar, Shiner's activites were to do with the British Army's presence in Iraq, not NI.
Despite the name, Danny Boy had nothing to do with the troubles in NI. Don't confuse Amarah with Armagh.
PorkInsider said:
Oh happy days 
HughiusMaximus said:
With all the (surprisingly) balanced points on the thread that is the point you pick up on?
I was just questioning your geographic ability, Donegal is the northernmost county in the Republic of Ireland as well as having the most northerly point on the island of Ireland, it is literally "the North of Ireland"LONDON — A suspected paramilitary serial murderer active during the Troubles in Northern Ireland has been named for the first time in a film by an Oscar-winning documentary-maker who alleges that the shooter was a former British soldier and his killing spree was covered up by the authorities.
Alex Gibney’s extraordinary new film about the unsolved 1994 Loughinisland massacre, which left six men dead as they watched a World Cup match, alleges that the perpetrators were known to police officers. Yet officials never brought charges against members of the gang—which included at least one informant who was working for the British government at the time.
The Catholic victims of the mass shooting were enjoying one of the greatest moments in Irish sporting history—a 1-0 World Cup win over Italy—when members of a Loyalist paramilitary group walked into a pub in the quiet village of Loughinisland and unleashed a hail of bullets toward their unguarded backs.
The man suspected of pulling the trigger was named simply as “Person A” in an official inquiry published last year. The report said he was also suspected of carrying out several other murders including at least one while he was a serving member of a British Army regiment that was tasked with protecting Northern Irish civilians from terrorists like him.
Gibney names the likely suspect as Ronnie Hawthorn, who now runs a contract cleaning business with his wife and continues to live close to the village which was devastated by the massacre.
Clare Rogan, whose husband Adrian was shot in the back during the attack, was at the London Film Festival premiere of the documentary, No Stone Unturned. She told The Daily Beast that it was a great relief to finally have her husband’s alleged killer exposed. She said she is confident that the film would offer renewed hope to the survivors and victims of other terrorist atrocities that have been left unsolved by authorities.
“It makes us feel so much better that it is out in the open, and it lets the other families know it can be done,” she said. “I don’t have any feelings about the gunman. It’s the cover-up that makes me angry—the deceit, what they allowed to happen.”
The families initially put their faith in the police to solve the murder and did not speak out to demand justice until almost a decade after the cowardly shooting. The name of the documentary derives from Rogan’s memory of the police officers who promised to find out who had murdered the father of her children. In an interview in the movie, she says: “I’ll never forget their words: ‘We will leave no stone unturned.’ Those words never left me because I don’t think they ever lifted a stone.”
A solicitor acting for the families appeared on screen to say that from his very first consultation it was obvious something was very wrong with this investigation. The cops had ditched the getaway car, which had been sold to the killers by a police informant; there was no examination of the field where the vehicle was found; the DNA evidence was mishandled; the suspects were tipped off before they were arrested; their interviews were not properly conducted; and the notes from them were lost. One accomplice confessed to the crime in a letter to the police, and yet still no charges were ever laid.
The film even suggests that officials had been tipped off before the massacre took place.
Gibney (Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room, Going Clear) met some of the families while making a short film on the World Cup massacre for ESPN. He was drawn deeper into their quest for justice, and three years later he is able to answer some of their questions.
“At least one of the members of the gang of four was working for the state [as an informant] at the time of the murder. That’s pretty shocking. That’s Whitey Bulger!” Gibney told The Daily Beast.
His reexamination of the case drew on decades of research by investigative journalist Barry McCaffrey, who Gibney described as “a hero.” He also interviewed several police officers involved—some of whom admitted that their investigations had been curtailed and directed from above.
“You have some good cops, you have bad cops and then you have higher government pressure based on this idea that informers may have been involved,” said Gibney.
Did the British government in London decide that this murder of six unarmed Catholics was better left unsolved in order to protect a Protestant paramilitary informant and spare them the embarrassment of admitting that a British Army soldier was involved?
NEW YORK, NY - APRIL 21: Alex Gibney attends the premiere of 'Secrecy And Power' during the 2015 Tribeca Film Festival at SVA Theater on April 21, 2015 in New York City. (Photo by Stephen Lovekin/Getty Images for the 2015 Tribeca Film Festival)© Provided by The Daily Beast NEW YORK, NY - APRIL 21: Alex Gibney attends the premiere of 'Secrecy And Power' during the 2015 Tribeca Film Festival at SVA Theater on April 21, 2015 in New York City. (Photo…
Gibney wrote to John Major, who was the British prime minister at the time, and other senior officials, as he tried to discover who had issued the orders to cover this crime up. None of those senior London officials were willing to take part.
As well as a deliberate cover-up, Gibney cites the sometimes fraught relationship between different branches of security and law enforcement agencies as possible reasons for the failure of the investigation.
“I’m working on a fiction project now, which is based on non-fiction material, which is all about that same tension between intelligence and criminal justice. It’s about the war between the FBI and the CIA in the run up to 9/11—it turns out the CIA was hiding the ball. They knew 18 months prior to 9/11 that two noted terrorists were in country, two people who would ultimately be on the plane going to Washington, D.C. but they didn’t tell the FBI, and I think there are similar issues in the Loughinisland case,” he said.
“There’s a skill of picture-building and you become obsessed with that and you think that’s much more important than bringing particular criminals to justice. And over time—in some instances—that may be true. But sometimes someone from the outside needs to say: ‘Wait a minute here, there was a massacre, six people are dead. Don’t you think this would be one of those moments when people get brought to book?’”
It’s unclear how the Northern Irish authorities will react to this movie, but there is no statute of limitations preventing Hawthorn and his alleged gang from being charged with the mass murder even now.
Emma, Adrian Rogan’s daughter, vividly remembers the day she was told: “Bad people came into the pub and daddy was dead.” She was one of the strongest advocates for kicking up a fuss and demanding that her father’s murder be solved 23 years later. At one point during the film, she breaks down in tears and says: “All we wanted was for someone to tell us the truth.”
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-documenta...
Alex Gibney’s extraordinary new film about the unsolved 1994 Loughinisland massacre, which left six men dead as they watched a World Cup match, alleges that the perpetrators were known to police officers. Yet officials never brought charges against members of the gang—which included at least one informant who was working for the British government at the time.
The Catholic victims of the mass shooting were enjoying one of the greatest moments in Irish sporting history—a 1-0 World Cup win over Italy—when members of a Loyalist paramilitary group walked into a pub in the quiet village of Loughinisland and unleashed a hail of bullets toward their unguarded backs.
The man suspected of pulling the trigger was named simply as “Person A” in an official inquiry published last year. The report said he was also suspected of carrying out several other murders including at least one while he was a serving member of a British Army regiment that was tasked with protecting Northern Irish civilians from terrorists like him.
Gibney names the likely suspect as Ronnie Hawthorn, who now runs a contract cleaning business with his wife and continues to live close to the village which was devastated by the massacre.
Clare Rogan, whose husband Adrian was shot in the back during the attack, was at the London Film Festival premiere of the documentary, No Stone Unturned. She told The Daily Beast that it was a great relief to finally have her husband’s alleged killer exposed. She said she is confident that the film would offer renewed hope to the survivors and victims of other terrorist atrocities that have been left unsolved by authorities.
“It makes us feel so much better that it is out in the open, and it lets the other families know it can be done,” she said. “I don’t have any feelings about the gunman. It’s the cover-up that makes me angry—the deceit, what they allowed to happen.”
The families initially put their faith in the police to solve the murder and did not speak out to demand justice until almost a decade after the cowardly shooting. The name of the documentary derives from Rogan’s memory of the police officers who promised to find out who had murdered the father of her children. In an interview in the movie, she says: “I’ll never forget their words: ‘We will leave no stone unturned.’ Those words never left me because I don’t think they ever lifted a stone.”
A solicitor acting for the families appeared on screen to say that from his very first consultation it was obvious something was very wrong with this investigation. The cops had ditched the getaway car, which had been sold to the killers by a police informant; there was no examination of the field where the vehicle was found; the DNA evidence was mishandled; the suspects were tipped off before they were arrested; their interviews were not properly conducted; and the notes from them were lost. One accomplice confessed to the crime in a letter to the police, and yet still no charges were ever laid.
The film even suggests that officials had been tipped off before the massacre took place.
Gibney (Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room, Going Clear) met some of the families while making a short film on the World Cup massacre for ESPN. He was drawn deeper into their quest for justice, and three years later he is able to answer some of their questions.
“At least one of the members of the gang of four was working for the state [as an informant] at the time of the murder. That’s pretty shocking. That’s Whitey Bulger!” Gibney told The Daily Beast.
His reexamination of the case drew on decades of research by investigative journalist Barry McCaffrey, who Gibney described as “a hero.” He also interviewed several police officers involved—some of whom admitted that their investigations had been curtailed and directed from above.
“You have some good cops, you have bad cops and then you have higher government pressure based on this idea that informers may have been involved,” said Gibney.
Did the British government in London decide that this murder of six unarmed Catholics was better left unsolved in order to protect a Protestant paramilitary informant and spare them the embarrassment of admitting that a British Army soldier was involved?
NEW YORK, NY - APRIL 21: Alex Gibney attends the premiere of 'Secrecy And Power' during the 2015 Tribeca Film Festival at SVA Theater on April 21, 2015 in New York City. (Photo by Stephen Lovekin/Getty Images for the 2015 Tribeca Film Festival)© Provided by The Daily Beast NEW YORK, NY - APRIL 21: Alex Gibney attends the premiere of 'Secrecy And Power' during the 2015 Tribeca Film Festival at SVA Theater on April 21, 2015 in New York City. (Photo…
Gibney wrote to John Major, who was the British prime minister at the time, and other senior officials, as he tried to discover who had issued the orders to cover this crime up. None of those senior London officials were willing to take part.
As well as a deliberate cover-up, Gibney cites the sometimes fraught relationship between different branches of security and law enforcement agencies as possible reasons for the failure of the investigation.
“I’m working on a fiction project now, which is based on non-fiction material, which is all about that same tension between intelligence and criminal justice. It’s about the war between the FBI and the CIA in the run up to 9/11—it turns out the CIA was hiding the ball. They knew 18 months prior to 9/11 that two noted terrorists were in country, two people who would ultimately be on the plane going to Washington, D.C. but they didn’t tell the FBI, and I think there are similar issues in the Loughinisland case,” he said.
“There’s a skill of picture-building and you become obsessed with that and you think that’s much more important than bringing particular criminals to justice. And over time—in some instances—that may be true. But sometimes someone from the outside needs to say: ‘Wait a minute here, there was a massacre, six people are dead. Don’t you think this would be one of those moments when people get brought to book?’”
It’s unclear how the Northern Irish authorities will react to this movie, but there is no statute of limitations preventing Hawthorn and his alleged gang from being charged with the mass murder even now.
Emma, Adrian Rogan’s daughter, vividly remembers the day she was told: “Bad people came into the pub and daddy was dead.” She was one of the strongest advocates for kicking up a fuss and demanding that her father’s murder be solved 23 years later. At one point during the film, she breaks down in tears and says: “All we wanted was for someone to tell us the truth.”
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/new-documenta...
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