Red Light - Emergency Vehicle Defence?

[bitchstewie]

Just been out and whilst at the front of a dual lane queue at some temporary (red) lights at a junction I saw then heard the blues and twos of an ambulance at the back of the queue.

Everyone behind starts to try to part and pull across onto their respective kerbs, there's very little room to pull forward, I'm at the front of the queue and there is a kerb but there are railings so nowhere to go other than forward.

By this point I've nudged forward to the point I feel comfortable with and I'm looking in my side mirror and can see that there is plenty of space for the ambulance to get through but it's literally just sitting there immediately off my rear driver side bumper not moving with the lights and siren wailing.

What are you supposed to do and what would you do in that situation?

[Countdown]

I'd wait.

Based on what you say it's not clear why he isn't moving past. Ergo it's not clear what you can do to assist.

[Green1man]

As has been mentioned here a number of times, getting out of the way of an emergency vehicle is no defence for passing through a red light. Also in this case poor ambulance driving as they are not supposed to try to intimidate traffic into passing through lights, they should have turned siren(at least) off once they had stopped behind you.

[Cyberprog]

An ambulance driver has no power to let you past the red light. They should have shut off the siren and waited until you could clear the junction.

Only a police officer can do this, but he must make the order verbally and, IIRC, be in uniform too.

[Dixy]

Had this about 6 months ago, I could see it was safe to move forward so did and worried for 2 weeks. Figured if I got 3 points and someone got to hospital quicker it was a fair trade.

[Riley Blue]

bhstewie said:

What are you supposed to do and what would you do in that situation?

Wait for the light to go green and then move out of the way.

[Gavia]

I'd move and let it through, as long as I didn't move into crossing traffic. There's usually plenty of space to do so, especially on a multi lane dual carriageway. I guess I'm the sort who doesn't view the infinitesimal risk of getting caught over what could be someone's life at stake.

[redstu]

If its only temporary lights then there probably wont be a red light camera, so chances of getting caught should be low.
However, no point in making the situation worse by having a bump with something or someone else.

[Countdown]

Gavia said:

I'd move and let it through, as long as I didn't move into crossing traffic. There's usually plenty of space to do so, especially on a multi lane dual carriageway. I guess I'm the sort who doesn't view the infinitesimal risk of getting caught over what could be someone's life at stake.

But there's already enough room for t'Ambulance to pass through. Why increase the risk (however infinitesimal)?

[Gavia]

Countdown said:

But there's already enough room for t'Ambulance to pass through. Why increase the risk (however infinitesimal)?

Because they weren't going through the gap it would suggest that it wasn't as big as the OP reckoned. I'd still move forward and make the gap bigger as long as it didn't put me into crossing traffic. Few traffic lights have cameras on them. I can only think of two in the town that I used to live and none where I currently live.

[bitchstewie]

Gavia said:

Because they weren't going through the gap it would suggest that it wasn't as big as the OP reckoned. I'd still move forward and make the gap bigger as long as it didn't put me into crossing traffic. Few traffic lights have cameras on them. I can only think of two in the town that I used to live and none where I currently live.

I'm pretty sure it was though of course I could have been mistaken.

As it was I went forward and did end up in the middle of the junction but the lights cycle was for oncoming traffic at that point and there was a large set of blue lights and sirens very clearly visible so whilst with hindsight I'd rather not have done so, I'm also not entirely comfortable with simply sitting there for however long it might have taken for the lights to cycle back to green.

[battered]

I'd go through if it was safe, then pull over. I have done exactly this, the policeman came through the gap, checked it was safe to proceed, gave me a wave of thanks, and drove off.

[captainaverage]

I usually let them through if there is no red light camera or plod near. I'll never let them through if there was a red light camera because obviously I'm not "trained" to carry out such a dangerous, complicated and totally unsafe thing. I have learnt that it's best to stop half a car length away from the white line when a red light camera is there because this allows you to manoeuvre your car enough to let ambulances through.

To answer your question, I don't think you can use the emergency vehicle defence.

[JumboBeef]

It is not acceptable for an ambulance to use lights and/or sirens when traffic ahead cannot move due to a red light.

Which area was this in? You should get in touch with ambulance trust for the area and lodge a complaint. The driving department will then have a word with the crew about intelligent use of lights and sirens.

[Gavia]

JumboBeef said:

It is not acceptable for an ambulance to use lights and/or sirens when traffic ahead cannot move due to a red light.

Which area was this in? You should get in touch with ambulance trust for the area and lodge a complaint. The driving department will then have a word with the crew about intelligent use of lights and sirens.

I just don't understand comments like this. The ambulance could have someone close to death in the back and a minute could be the difference between life and death and you're suggesting getting the driver into bother. Whatever the law says (and I really think there would be a common sense aspect to this) your comments are pretty pathetic in my opinion.

It's very rare for a stop line on a multi lane dual carriageway to be do far forward that going over by a car length or two would put you into crossing traffic.

[JumboBeef]

Gavia said:

JumboBeef said:

It is not acceptable for an ambulance to use lights and/or sirens when traffic ahead cannot move due to a red light.

Which area was this in? You should get in touch with ambulance trust for the area and lodge a complaint. The driving department will then have a word with the crew about intelligent use of lights and sirens.

I just don't understand comments like this. The ambulance could have someone close to death in the back and a minute could be the difference between life and death and you're suggesting getting the driver into bother. Whatever the law says (and I really think there would be a common sense aspect to this) your comments are pretty pathetic in my opinion.

It's very rare for a stop line on a multi lane dual carriageway to be do far forward that going over by a car length or two would put you into crossing traffic.

I'm a Paramedic so I think I know about this

Google Red Mist in emergency driving. Forcing cars through red lights to get to an emergency is a good example of Red Mist.

No job, even those very rare jobs where every minute counts, is worth putting other road users at risk. At worse, you might kill someone. At best, if there is a bump without injury, the ambulance HAS to stop and so cannot proceed to the original emergency.

It is not about 'getting the driver into bother', it is about re-educating the driver about intelligent use of lights and sirens, ie: switch them off when you can't make progress.

[Gavia]

JumboBeef said:

I'm a Paramedic so I think I know about this

Google Red Mist in emergency driving. Forcing cars through red lights to get to an emergency is a good example of Red Mist.

No job, even those very rare jobs where every minute counts, is worth putting other road users at risk. At worse, you might kill someone. At best, if there is a bump without injury, the ambulance HAS to stop and so cannot proceed to the original emergency.

It is not about 'getting the driver into bother', it is about re-educating the driver about intelligent use of lights and sirens, ie: switch them off when you can't make progress.

Still don't see your point, it seems to be to just wait for the lights to turn green. Why even bother spending money on lights and livery on your vehicle?

[Countdown]

Gavia said:

Still don't see your point, it seems to be to just wait for the lights to turn green. Why even bother spending money on lights and livery on your vehicle?

Even if they don't use them to make progress at traffic lights, I'm pretty sure the blue lights/livery are effective in clearing traffic out of the way the rest of the time.

This is just ONE example where (for some unknown reason) the Ambulance chose not to proceed through a red light. That's down to the driver and his/her judgement. It doesn't mean blue lights don't do what they're supposed to do..

[Sheepshanks]

Gavia said:

The ambulance could have someone close to death in the back and a minute could be the difference between life and death...

On a previous occasion when this issue came up, a paramedic on here said in his whole career he could count on the fingers of one hand the number of times where seconds counted in getting someone to hospital.

[Sheepshanks]

bhstewie said:

As it was I went forward and did end up in the middle of the junction but the lights cycle was for oncoming traffic...

You said they were temporary lights, so was the view of the oncoming traffic restricted? Perhaps he was concerned he'd end up in the middle of whatever the obstruction was with another car coming towards him and both vehicles being stuck?