Is the M1 South Yorkshire now 60mph limit ?

Is the M1 South Yorkshire now 60mph limit ?

Author
Discussion

Crackie

6,386 posts

241 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
Crackie said:
The M5 was a car park; most experienced drivers know all about the concertina effect when traffic is very heavy. A constant 50 was safer than bursts of 75 -80 followed by stationary or walking pace for 15 minutes. When I lived in Huntingdon, I begrudgingly had to admit that, at the busiest times of the day, the 70mph average speed cameras did improve flow on the A14 between Huntingdon and Cambridge.

The thread is about the M1 in South Yorkshire; as I said above, I could see no reason whatsoever for the limit to be 60 on the M1 on Monday. I doubt conditions could have been better. If we are to have variable limits, then limit should have been 90-95mph on Monday afternoon not 60mph.

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 20th April 22:45
I think we've disagreed on the A14 Cambridge to Huntingdon before. I just avoid that section now, it was way better before the average cameras, now it's just full of people nose-to-tail and half asleep. They've just traded the occasional serious accident for loads of minor ones. The minor ones cause regular tailbacks. And my memory tells me that the majority of the serious accidents prior to the average cameras were usually in close proximity to the Gatso cameras that were at several locations previously.
Fair enough, I agree the accidents were close to the Gatso cameras. These Gatsos were close to junctions on that stretch and I think the accidents were caused by junctions with no sliproads.

The journey from Torquay to Ripon took exactly 8 hours eek but usually takes between 4hrs 15mins and 4 hours 30. it was tedious and boring. I'm looking to buy a new car and whilst in Torquay I'd test driven a couple of 335i BMs; the 8 hour drive back has made me question the point of having a 'performance' car. I'm seriously considering getting something big, slow and wafty.

The police and crime commissioner for North Yorks, Julia Mulligan, has been waging a war on speeders since coming into office. She's just doubled the number of mobile cameras in the county but the stats show zero evidence that the ones being used already have reduced accidents or casualties in any way.


Edited by Crackie on Friday 21st April 08:16

RumbleOfThunder

3,546 posts

202 months

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
Mandown46 said:
The signals will be set automatically at rush hour, weekdays both morning and evening, so although most of the time they will work as normal, for those key times that entire section will be showing mandatory 60's at a maximum.

We got briefed not to really discuss it with anyone who enquires, and to direct people with questions and complaints to the HAIL team (poor buggers)
We were asked to definitely not mention its all to do with air quality in those sections.

Its absolutely infuriating. Given the amount of work a lot of us are doing to try and increase the accuracy and trust in those signals, to see this undermining everything we have done hurts a lot.

The chap setting it up it did mention that the limits are very unlikely to be enforced, but to be honest, I won't be testing that theory out too readily.
Well thanks for the honesty in that answer. LoL'd at referral to HAIL team, do those buggers ever answer the phone, never have answered in my experience.

But you're absolutely right, it's b-s like this which ultimately damages respect for other signs where it really matters, eg red X.

turbojay555

Original Poster:

224 posts

152 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
Mandown46 said:
The signals will be set automatically at rush hour, weekdays both morning and evening, so although most of the time they will work as normal, for those key times that entire section will be showing mandatory 60's at a maximum.

We got briefed not to really discuss it with anyone who enquires, and to direct people with questions and complaints to the HAIL team (poor buggers)
We were asked to definitely not mention its all to do with air quality in those sections.

Its absolutely infuriating. Given the amount of work a lot of us are doing to try and increase the accuracy and trust in those signals, to see this undermining everything we have done hurts a lot.

The chap setting it up it did mention that the limits are very unlikely to be enforced, but to be honest, I won't be testing that theory out too readily.
It's good to hear that, but the times I've been on it are around 2 o clock low traffic so not rush hour. Although I have just come through them at 11am and no signs on at all.
Don't suppose that chap setting it up mentioned what the trigger limit is for the hadecs are when no limit is shown haha.

Trax

1,527 posts

231 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
turbojay555 said:
Mandown46 said:
The signals will be set automatically at rush hour, weekdays both morning and evening, so although most of the time they will work as normal, for those key times that entire section will be showing mandatory 60's at a maximum.

We got briefed not to really discuss it with anyone who enquires, and to direct people with questions and complaints to the HAIL team (poor buggers)
We were asked to definitely not mention its all to do with air quality in those sections.

Its absolutely infuriating. Given the amount of work a lot of us are doing to try and increase the accuracy and trust in those signals, to see this undermining everything we have done hurts a lot.

The chap setting it up it did mention that the limits are very unlikely to be enforced, but to be honest, I won't be testing that theory out too readily.
It's good to hear that, but the times I've been on it are around 2 o clock low traffic so not rush hour. Although I have just come through them at 11am and no signs on at all.
Don't suppose that chap setting it up mentioned what the trigger limit is for the hadecs are when no limit is shown haha.
This just stinks a bit, well a lot. The article linked to above mentions 60mph limits to reduce emisions, and looks like its from Jan this year, and your post confirms it that its being implemented.

They tried to lobby for it a few years ago, and got knocked back, as their argument was to reduce emissions, mainly produced by lorries, which, well, don't do 60mph.

Looks like they have done it by the back door, surely someone in the press can look into this??

chopper602

2,172 posts

222 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
turbojay555 said:
Don't suppose that chap setting it up mentioned what the trigger limit is for the hadecs are when no limit is shown haha.
It won't be the same bloke! The Police will set the trigger for the HADECS, not the software / data contractor. HE are also paying for additional support to make sure that the signals turn off correctly at the end of the timetabled period . . .

turbojay555

Original Poster:

224 posts

152 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
Trax said:
This just stinks a bit, well a lot. The article linked to above mentions 60mph limits to reduce emisions, and looks like its from Jan this year, and your post confirms it that its being implemented.

They tried to lobby for it a few years ago, and got knocked back, as their argument was to reduce emissions, mainly produced by lorries, which, well, don't do 60mph.

Looks like they have done it by the back door, surely someone in the press can look into this??
I'd not read that article till today and yes it looks like its being implemented already.
Most drivers will think it's to keep flowing or a accident further up the motorway but that's not the case.
It's certainly a sneaky way of doing things.

Ste1987

1,798 posts

105 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
I commute to Sheffield down the M1 daily and I'm probably one of very few people this doesn't bother, as I do 60mph all the way. Add's, at most, 5 minutes to my journey and saves me fuel.

turbojay555

Original Poster:

224 posts

152 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
chopper602 said:
turbojay555 said:
Don't suppose that chap setting it up mentioned what the trigger limit is for the hadecs are when no limit is shown haha.
It won't be the same bloke! The Police will set the trigger for the HADECS, not the software / data contractor. HE are also paying for additional support to make sure that the signals turn off correctly at the end of the timetabled period . . .
I thought HE owned and set them and sent all data to the relevant force.

funkyrobot

18,789 posts

227 months

Friday 21st April 2017
quotequote all
It's a shame they don't enforce the limit on the 30mph road that passes our house. But, they'll stick a 60mph limit on a motorway and ensure it is covered by camera gantries.

I used the A14 section a good few times around a month ago (trip to Colchester zoo then a trip to Duxford). It's nose to tail with so many vehicles travelling 2 foot from the bumper in-front.

briantvr350i

115 posts

257 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
quotequote all
Morning,

saw this thread a day or so ago, only just had time to post a reply...

Please see reply from Highways England following me questioning the imposition of the lowered limits....





I had intended to question this further via my MP although Mrs May called an election and out elected representatives will be looking to retain their seats rather than dealing with constituents. In my view the decision for reduced speed limits should be a political decision made by parliament not by a faceless individual in the Highways Department.

Regards,

Brian (and a Green Griffith 500)

cmaguire

3,589 posts

108 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
quotequote all
They just lie though don't they, and structure their response to allow for pretty much what they were after in the first place?
They will apply the 60 at peak hours, but endeavour to maintain the 70 at other times IF air quality is acceptable.
Translation - There is every likelyhood the 60 will be in operation between the two peak periods as well because that's what we wanted to start with and our air quality proviso can be used to justify it, and we are running the air quality system anyway so you'll never know the truth.

JNW1

7,711 posts

193 months

Saturday 22nd April 2017
quotequote all
cmaguire said:
They just lie though don't they, and structure their response to allow for pretty much what they were after in the first place?
They will apply the 60 at peak hours, but endeavour to maintain the 70 at other times IF air quality is acceptable.
Translation - There is every likelyhood the 60 will be in operation between the two peak periods as well because that's what we wanted to start with and our air quality proviso can be used to justify it, and we are running the air quality system anyway so you'll never know the truth.
Tend to agree. UK motorways are among the safest roads in the world so safety can't really be used as a justification for slowing people down; however, just tell everyone it's to do with air quality and, because that's something that isn't visible and the authorities are doing the measuring, nobody can really argue! So yes, it does feel like introducing a 60mph limit by the back door when a lot of time it's almost certainly not justified.

However, a further thought which occurs is surely most of the air pollution from vehicles is generated by lorries and if I understand correctly they will be unaffected by this reduced limit as they can't exceed 60mph anyway? That being the case it seems rather strange to identify a problem (air quality) and then target a group (cars) which is least likely to provide a solution; cynic might say that's just evidence that in reality the policy isn't really about improving air quality at all...


Trax

1,527 posts

231 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
Thanks for the letter Brian.

So, they wanted to reduce the limits to cut emissions primarily generated by lorries, and were rejected, how come this wasn't rejected, or have they not consulted with anyone, just done it on their own whim, without any challenge?

Downgrading these moterways to the dangerous ones now, was not so they could play with limits to suit themselves, it was to increase overal speed/movement. How cue the HIghways Agencies seem to have this power with no checks?

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
So is that letter confirming the policy is already in place?

fking outrageous IMO

turbojay555

Original Poster:

224 posts

152 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
So is that letter confirming the policy is already in place?

fking outrageous IMO
It certainly looks like that and for at least 2 years furiousfuriousfurious

captainaverage

596 posts

86 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
I have seen them at 60 mph at around 20:00 hrs before with only 2-3 cars travelling around me. Can we do something about this BS? This is getting beyond a joke, I use a much longer route now to avoid this stretch of the motorway if I can. Raising a petition wouldn't help would it just like every other one. I wish we could get all motorist in one place and take out this obsession with speed cameras.

Trax

1,527 posts

231 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Yep, looks like its here, and to stay for at least 5 years.

I managed to find the consultation document for it, nearly 100 pages, which was produced after the 60mph 7 days a week 7am-7pm was rejected. But I cannot find anything in it in relation to why 60mph will reduce the pollution levels. Its all based on models, and guesses as to what will happen. Basically, when the scheme opens (well opened now), they said running at standard 70mph Smart Motorway - so reduction only to ease congestion, the increased usage between 28 and 35 will exceed some arbitrary limits. Measured along certain places, and mapped how these will increase on further guesses over the years.

The original plan was rejected, as the Government didn't want to use reduced speed limits. Every plan in the new consultation was some sort of limit. (Just to note, the original plan also had a recommendation of 50mph fixed limit, not 60mph). They picked the 60mph at peak 5 days a week, based on what anticipated pollution would be at the measuring stations along the route, all guess work. They don't anticipate going back to normal, until 5 years, but wont if the pollution targets are not met, through natural progress in vehicle pollution, i.e. more electric, less diesels etc.

Now, as far as I know, most of the NO2 is produced by lorries, not cars, and only cars will be affected by the speed limits, so they have set it up to fail, and I am guessing these permanent 60mph, or less, will be with us, on a much expended basis for a very long time. I could put money on a new introduction down to 50mph, when the made up targets are not met - lets see in a few years.

So they will monitor these stations themselves, with no oversight. It may be worth a FOI request after 6 months to see what readings they are getting at these measuring stations, to see if they are below what they anticipated as unacceptable limits in the consultation.

Oh yes, and for some reason, they found a loophole in the regulations, meaning the consultation fell under some EU directive, and therefore no Governmental consultation or acceptance was required.

Engineer792

582 posts

85 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Do you have a link to the consultation?
I'm very interested in seeing how they arrived at those conclusions

FiF

43,964 posts

250 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
quotequote all
Engineer792 said:
Do you have a link to the consultation?
I'm very interested in seeing how they arrived at those conclusions
Link to the consultation and a summary of the responses is here

Suspect the nearly 100 page report about the operating regime is here