Question - Priority At A Roundabout
Discussion
I have a question for the PH collective, and hopefully a Traffic Officer will clarify this for me.
Have a look at this photo...
This is a roundabout not far from where I live that I often use. Entrances from the North, East & West and a car park to the South with the entrance/exit onto the roundabout, over a dropped kerb.
Yesterday I was approaching from the North, and the were cars coming from the West (to my right). There was also a car (VW Beetle) waiting to come out of the car park. You can probably see where this is heading, yes?
As I approached, the VW pulled across a pick-up truck coming from the West and went off to the East. The pick-up had to stop pretty sharpish, as I don't reckon the driver was expecting the VW to pull out.
So, my question is this: was the VW driver in the wrong? My view is that they were (but I am happy to have my view changed). My reasoning is the fact that the car park doesn't have a proper exit onto the roundabout, and drivers have to cross the pavement to get onto the roundabout mean that you would have wait for all other exits to be clear before you proceed.
If the pick-up hadn't have stopped in time and collided with the VW, who would be at fault (let's pretend that there was some sort of injury, so the police would be involved and blame would need to be apportioned)?
As another element to this little event, the VW was a (professional) learner car with the driver under instruction. It would appear that the instructor had told the driver to pull into the roundabout. Now if the pick-up had hit the VW, and it was deemed the Beetle driver was in the wrong, what responsibility would the instructor shoulder?
Have a look at this photo...
This is a roundabout not far from where I live that I often use. Entrances from the North, East & West and a car park to the South with the entrance/exit onto the roundabout, over a dropped kerb.
Yesterday I was approaching from the North, and the were cars coming from the West (to my right). There was also a car (VW Beetle) waiting to come out of the car park. You can probably see where this is heading, yes?
As I approached, the VW pulled across a pick-up truck coming from the West and went off to the East. The pick-up had to stop pretty sharpish, as I don't reckon the driver was expecting the VW to pull out.
So, my question is this: was the VW driver in the wrong? My view is that they were (but I am happy to have my view changed). My reasoning is the fact that the car park doesn't have a proper exit onto the roundabout, and drivers have to cross the pavement to get onto the roundabout mean that you would have wait for all other exits to be clear before you proceed.
If the pick-up hadn't have stopped in time and collided with the VW, who would be at fault (let's pretend that there was some sort of injury, so the police would be involved and blame would need to be apportioned)?
As another element to this little event, the VW was a (professional) learner car with the driver under instruction. It would appear that the instructor had told the driver to pull into the roundabout. Now if the pick-up had hit the VW, and it was deemed the Beetle driver was in the wrong, what responsibility would the instructor shoulder?
Vroom101 said:
My reasoning is the fact that the car park doesn't have a proper exit onto the roundabout, and drivers have to cross the pavement to get onto the roundabout mean that you would have wait for all other exits to be clear before you proceed.
Interesting.Personally at a roundabout I'd just give way to anything on my right, regardless of their approach.
I can't see why the VW would be at fault....http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answers/-highway-code-for-roundabouts
Section 185
Section 185 explains what you should do when you reach the roundabout. Again it is important to be aware of the traffic around you and look out for road users who may be signalling incorrectly or in some cases not signalling at all!
When reaching a roundabout you should:
Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
Check if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way (always look right before joining just in case)
Watch out for other road users on the roundabout
Check the traffic has moved off in front of you before you proceed to enter the roundabout
Section 185
Section 185 explains what you should do when you reach the roundabout. Again it is important to be aware of the traffic around you and look out for road users who may be signalling incorrectly or in some cases not signalling at all!
When reaching a roundabout you should:
Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
Check if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way (always look right before joining just in case)
Watch out for other road users on the roundabout
Check the traffic has moved off in front of you before you proceed to enter the roundabout
The way I used to describe a roundabout when giving law lectures is that the circle is a main road. Vehicles have to give way to vehicles already on the roundabout in the same manner as they would coming out of a side turning onto a main road.
The give way lines are, well, signs that the vehicles on that road should give way. Give way her means, more or less, not obliging a driver or other road used to alter course, direction or speed because of what you do. There is a fair bit of case law on giving way but essentially this definition is workable on a roundabout.
There is ample case law to support this view.
Give way to traffic from the right assumes that such traffic is already on the roundabout. It is, in effect, a first come, first served situation.
However, it is clear from some of the examples posted in the 'poor' driving caught on camera thread that you'd be a bit of a fool to depend on people knowing that give way lines mean give way.
The give way lines are, well, signs that the vehicles on that road should give way. Give way her means, more or less, not obliging a driver or other road used to alter course, direction or speed because of what you do. There is a fair bit of case law on giving way but essentially this definition is workable on a roundabout.
There is ample case law to support this view.
Give way to traffic from the right assumes that such traffic is already on the roundabout. It is, in effect, a first come, first served situation.
However, it is clear from some of the examples posted in the 'poor' driving caught on camera thread that you'd be a bit of a fool to depend on people knowing that give way lines mean give way.
LeoSayer said:
I can't see why the VW would be at fault....http://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/changes-and-answers/-highway-code-for-roundabouts
Section 185
Section 185 explains what you should do when you reach the roundabout. Again it is important to be aware of the traffic around you and look out for road users who may be signalling incorrectly or in some cases not signalling at all!
When reaching a roundabout you should:
Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
Check if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way (always look right before joining just in case)
Watch out for other road users on the roundabout
Check the traffic has moved off in front of you before you proceed to enter the roundabout
Yep, thats all true, but what bearing does it have that the car park isn't a 'proper' exit onto the roundabout? Section 185
Section 185 explains what you should do when you reach the roundabout. Again it is important to be aware of the traffic around you and look out for road users who may be signalling incorrectly or in some cases not signalling at all!
When reaching a roundabout you should:
Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
Check if the road markings allow you to proceed without giving way (always look right before joining just in case)
Watch out for other road users on the roundabout
Check the traffic has moved off in front of you before you proceed to enter the roundabout
Drivers coming from the West would rightly expect to give way to vehicles turning right coming from the East, but the fact that cars coming out of the carpark have to cross the pavement and there are no road markings a denoting this as an exit has to question their priority over other vehicles on the roundabout, doesn't it?
I don't see that the VW did anything wrong. There was nobody on the roundabout to give way to.
I have to go trough three of these silly things on my daily commute. Often each entrance has a vehicle approach at the same time, so who gives way? As I am quite an assertive driver I tend to be the one to go.
I have to go trough three of these silly things on my daily commute. Often each entrance has a vehicle approach at the same time, so who gives way? As I am quite an assertive driver I tend to be the one to go.
Vroom101 said:
Yep, thats all true, but what bearing does it have that the car park isn't a 'proper' exit onto the roundabout?
Drivers coming from the West would rightly expect to give way to vehicles turning right coming from the East, but the fact that cars coming out of the carpark have to cross the pavement and there are no road markings a denoting this as an exit has to question their priority over other vehicles on the roundabout, doesn't it?
Is the visibility (for vehicles from the West) so poor that they would not easily see the vehicle entering the road/roundabout from the car park? Drivers coming from the West would rightly expect to give way to vehicles turning right coming from the East, but the fact that cars coming out of the carpark have to cross the pavement and there are no road markings a denoting this as an exit has to question their priority over other vehicles on the roundabout, doesn't it?
The car leaves the car park and once on the road has 'the high ground' vs traffic from the West. But arguably it is the equivalent of turning out of drive/yard in front of traffic. In an ideal world both should be paying enough attention that there isn't any chance of an incident, but our roads are so far from an ideal world these days!
Surely it's simple? You have to give way to traffic that is already on the roundabout when you get there. It doesn't matter where it has come from, it could have dropped from space, but if it is there then you have to give way to it.
So if it is clear for cars exiting the car park to enter the roundabout then they can do so, if there is traffic to their left then that is irrelevant, that traffic has to stop once they are on the roundabout.
Generally speaking you dont want to leap out on to a roundabout knowing that you are going to get hit by someone from the left who doesnt know the law, but someone coming from the left is going to be in trouble if they collect someone on the roundabout who has come from their right.
So if it is clear for cars exiting the car park to enter the roundabout then they can do so, if there is traffic to their left then that is irrelevant, that traffic has to stop once they are on the roundabout.
Generally speaking you dont want to leap out on to a roundabout knowing that you are going to get hit by someone from the left who doesnt know the law, but someone coming from the left is going to be in trouble if they collect someone on the roundabout who has come from their right.
Heres Johnny said:
You say it's a dropped curb onto the roundabout, why do you think it's not a proper entry point?
Because it doesn't have the road markings like a normal entry point, i.e. white Give Way markings. The only markings are double yellow lines which follow the line of the kerb.llewop said:
Is the visibility (for vehicles from the West) so poor that they would not easily see the vehicle entering the road/roundabout from the car park?
It's not great. Traffic coming from the West is travelling uphill and the mini roundabout sits at the top of the hill, on a slight bend.Street view from the West:
llewop said:
The car leaves the car park and once on the road has 'the high ground' vs traffic from the West. But arguably it is the equivalent of turning out of drive/yard in front of traffic. In an ideal world both should be paying enough attention that there isn't any chance of an incident, but our roads are so far from an ideal world these days!
The pick-up and the VW entered the roundabout at pretty much exactly the same time, but you're right about it's the same as entering the roundabout from a drive. How many would give way to someone coming out of their drive on this roundabout for example?
you only give way to someone on the roundabout, it is being on the roundabout to your right that gives them priority... so while in the car park exit they have no priority, but once they hit the roundabout whether from that car park exit, or from the drive above, they are then on the roundabout and have priority... when you approach from the West, your decision making is based on whether you think they will or won't be in front of you when you drive onto the roundabout, what road / how they enter the roundabout is irrelevant
It's a mini-roundabout, so all the daft arguments about who is a metre ahead as they enter and therefore has priority is just pointless nonsense. Mini-roundabouts require some forward thinking and common sense prior to entry, such that those arriving at it have assessed intentions before entering.
Irrespective of that, my personal thoughts as regards the VW are that everybody has priority over the VW because the car park is not a designated road with its own 'approach' to the roundabout. If I were wishing to exit the car park I would not do so if it necessitated others giving way to me.
Also, with the layout of this mini-roundabout, my personal feeling is that cars arriving from the East or West should have a higher level of priority than those arriving from the North as the East-West direction is effectively a continuation of the same road, whereas those arriving from the North are effectively entering the 'straight' road and joining it.
Irrespective of that, my personal thoughts as regards the VW are that everybody has priority over the VW because the car park is not a designated road with its own 'approach' to the roundabout. If I were wishing to exit the car park I would not do so if it necessitated others giving way to me.
Also, with the layout of this mini-roundabout, my personal feeling is that cars arriving from the East or West should have a higher level of priority than those arriving from the North as the East-West direction is effectively a continuation of the same road, whereas those arriving from the North are effectively entering the 'straight' road and joining it.
cmaguire said:
...my personal feeling is that cars arriving from the East or West should have a higher level of priority than those arriving from the North as the East-West direction is effectively a continuation of the same road, whereas those arriving from the North are effectively entering the 'straight' road and joining it.
That would make it effectively a T junction, which it probably was before, but somebody decided that it would be better as a roundabout.North, South, East or West, dropped kerbs, continuation of the same road, all irrelevant. Give way to the right.
gazza285 said:
cmaguire said:
...my personal feeling is that cars arriving from the East or West should have a higher level of priority than those arriving from the North as the East-West direction is effectively a continuation of the same road, whereas those arriving from the North are effectively entering the 'straight' road and joining it.
That would make it effectively a T junction, which it probably was before, but somebody decided that it would be better as a roundabout.North, South, East or West, dropped kerbs, continuation of the same road, all irrelevant. Give way to the right.
To start inventing priorities based on a previous layout or whether a Roman Army used to march along the road is just wrong. It's also not a high speed chicane, it's a give way junction from all directions.
Derek Smith said:
The way I used to describe a roundabout when giving law lectures is that the circle is a main road. Vehicles have to give way to vehicles already on the roundabout in the same manner as they would coming out of a side turning onto a main road.
The give way lines are, well, signs that the vehicles on that road should give way. Give way her means, more or less, not obliging a driver or other road used to alter course, direction or speed because of what you do. There is a fair bit of case law on giving way but essentially this definition is workable on a roundabout.
There is ample case law to support this view.
Give way to traffic from the right assumes that such traffic is already on the roundabout. It is, in effect, a first come, first served situation.
However, it is clear from some of the examples posted in the 'poor' driving caught on camera thread that you'd be a bit of a fool to depend on people knowing that give way lines mean give way.
I give way to the right, if I only gave way to cars already on the roundabout I'd be dead. Sometimes I find I also have to give way to the left as well but those are always German cars, Audis and BMWs which is okay because I know they are more important than me.The give way lines are, well, signs that the vehicles on that road should give way. Give way her means, more or less, not obliging a driver or other road used to alter course, direction or speed because of what you do. There is a fair bit of case law on giving way but essentially this definition is workable on a roundabout.
There is ample case law to support this view.
Give way to traffic from the right assumes that such traffic is already on the roundabout. It is, in effect, a first come, first served situation.
However, it is clear from some of the examples posted in the 'poor' driving caught on camera thread that you'd be a bit of a fool to depend on people knowing that give way lines mean give way.
popeyewhite said:
Vroom101 said:
My reasoning is the fact that the car park doesn't have a proper exit onto the roundabout, and drivers have to cross the pavement to get onto the roundabout mean that you would have wait for all other exits to be clear before you proceed.
Interesting.Personally at a roundabout I'd just give way to anything on my right, regardless of their approach.
The thing I dislike about mini roundabouts is that you're vulnerable to d
heads who don't seem to realise that you are actually meant to drive round them in the correct direction.
For example... referring to the OP's picture. I am approaching the roundabout from the west, intending to go straight across. I arrive at the roundabout at the same moment as a car approaching from the east, and I see that he is indicating right to exit the roundabout to the north. Since I'm still moving, I have enough time to continue onto the roundabout, because I believe I'm entitled to expect the other driver to drive clockwise around the roundabout before exiting, and this means that there will be no conflict between us - it'll take a few moments for him to follow the circular path and I'll be past the point of conflict before he gets there.
Unfortunately what happens is the other driver short-circuits the roundabout altogether, driving over it and frequently straight-lining his manoeuvre to the extent that he's actually driving somewhat the wrong way round the roundabout. This brings us into direct conflict, and invariably he sounds his horn and gestures at me because he thinks I've done something wrong.
heads who don't seem to realise that you are actually meant to drive round them in the correct direction.For example... referring to the OP's picture. I am approaching the roundabout from the west, intending to go straight across. I arrive at the roundabout at the same moment as a car approaching from the east, and I see that he is indicating right to exit the roundabout to the north. Since I'm still moving, I have enough time to continue onto the roundabout, because I believe I'm entitled to expect the other driver to drive clockwise around the roundabout before exiting, and this means that there will be no conflict between us - it'll take a few moments for him to follow the circular path and I'll be past the point of conflict before he gets there.
Unfortunately what happens is the other driver short-circuits the roundabout altogether, driving over it and frequently straight-lining his manoeuvre to the extent that he's actually driving somewhat the wrong way round the roundabout. This brings us into direct conflict, and invariably he sounds his horn and gestures at me because he thinks I've done something wrong.
herewego said:
I give way to the right, if I only gave way to cars already on the roundabout I'd be dead. Sometimes I find I also have to give way to the left as well but those are always German cars, Audis and BMWs which is okay because I know they are more important than me.
I agree with what you say. Whilst it might be nice to know the law about priority, it is much better not to be driven into by some idiot.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff