PCN for Stopping on Restricted Bus Stop for Zero Seconds
Discussion
TooMany2cvs said:
vonhosen said:
Sheepshanks said:
Took one of my kids into town at midnight for the release of some new game. There's a bus lay-by very near the shop and I'd have waited there but it was full of cars parked by people also visiting the shop. The Police came along and ticketed them all. No buses run at that time of night.
If the law didn't apply at that time of night they could appeal it.I detest seeing PCNs issued in this way. It relies solely on the fact an absolute offence was committed without taking common sense, discretion or compassion into account.
Now, I've no idea what her intentions were or whether she had caused an obstruction or endangered any pedestrians etc. But if she's planning an appeal she might want to ask this question:
"When is a bus stop not a bus stop?"
What I mean by this is, if the borough is simply relying 100% on legislation in order to gain revenue, they also need to be complying 100% with the legislation themselves. I'll give you a few pointers:
Unless any of the legislation has changed in the last two years, the PCN will have been issued under the Traffic Management Act 2004, Schedule 7, Part 1, Section 3(2)(h)(ii) and it will relate to an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 36(1) when failing to heed a sign as prescribed by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 29(1). For an offence to have been committed, the bus stop has to be set out according to The Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Schedule 6, diagram 1025.1. The dimensions and tolerance of each of the elements of the bus stop are defined in the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (10) and the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (5) states the tolerances must be met.
I wouldn't be surprised if said bus stop fails to constitute a bus stop in law in a number of different ways. And if it doesn't, she can't have committed an offence.....
Now, I've no idea what her intentions were or whether she had caused an obstruction or endangered any pedestrians etc. But if she's planning an appeal she might want to ask this question:
"When is a bus stop not a bus stop?"
What I mean by this is, if the borough is simply relying 100% on legislation in order to gain revenue, they also need to be complying 100% with the legislation themselves. I'll give you a few pointers:
Unless any of the legislation has changed in the last two years, the PCN will have been issued under the Traffic Management Act 2004, Schedule 7, Part 1, Section 3(2)(h)(ii) and it will relate to an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 36(1) when failing to heed a sign as prescribed by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 29(1). For an offence to have been committed, the bus stop has to be set out according to The Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Schedule 6, diagram 1025.1. The dimensions and tolerance of each of the elements of the bus stop are defined in the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (10) and the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (5) states the tolerances must be met.
I wouldn't be surprised if said bus stop fails to constitute a bus stop in law in a number of different ways. And if it doesn't, she can't have committed an offence.....
It also begs the question of when does a bus become just a parked vehicle. Busses from an independent company use a certain stop near me for a layover lasting several minutes. The service is not booked from this stop, driver arrives empty and leaves empty , the layby is not a full bus width and is within 200yds of a busy traffic light controlled junction .
herewego said:
Cold said:
Are you suggesting the only thing stopping complete Anarchy in the UK (other songs are available) is the presence of enforcement officers?
On the subject of speculation, we can only make presumptions about how many busses were harmed, injured or indeed inconvenienced during this 59 second alleged transgression. I'll start the estimate speculation at zero.
We could just regard laws as guidelines but I don't think they'd be as effective as they are when enforced.On the subject of speculation, we can only make presumptions about how many busses were harmed, injured or indeed inconvenienced during this 59 second alleged transgression. I'll start the estimate speculation at zero.
Edited by herewego on Saturday 22 April 17:14
Having said that, it does weaken the principle of law making and compliance therewith; but to my mind what we should be doing is encouraging decent behaviour, with reasonable consideration for others, and anything that goes wrong within that climate of functioning should be accepted. Life is never going to be perfect.
TooMany2cvs said:
The question is whether the bus lane is in operation, not whether there are buses running...
Used to be a bus lane near me where no buses were scheduled to use it during its morning period of operation!(Timetables have subsequently changed and it sees a fair bit of use in the morning now)
Why can't people just accept the consequences of their actions anymore?
She stopped where she shouldnt have, she's in the wrong, accept her bloody punishment ffs!
I loathe this age of arrogance and entitlement!!
(P.s. I haven't read the whole thread so may completely be going off in the wrong direction :P)
She stopped where she shouldnt have, she's in the wrong, accept her bloody punishment ffs!
I loathe this age of arrogance and entitlement!!
(P.s. I haven't read the whole thread so may completely be going off in the wrong direction :P)
IANAL but I'd be fighting this one regardless of whether my mrs did or did not park as alleged.
The notice was not served and given that most parking tickets these days are accompanied by photographs of both the ticket served on the screen and usually the vehicle parked in the location, that there is absolutely no evidence of any infraction and it will be up to the coucil to prove it actually happened at all. I doubt the word of a warden would be sufficient and you are not obliged to incriminate yourself.
If it went to court, she'd have to tell the truth when questioned directly under oath I would seriously doubt it would go that far
The notice was not served and given that most parking tickets these days are accompanied by photographs of both the ticket served on the screen and usually the vehicle parked in the location, that there is absolutely no evidence of any infraction and it will be up to the coucil to prove it actually happened at all. I doubt the word of a warden would be sufficient and you are not obliged to incriminate yourself.
If it went to court, she'd have to tell the truth when questioned directly under oath I would seriously doubt it would go that far
Dagnir said:
I haven't read the whole thread so may completely be going off in the wrong direction...
Quite. Do you think anyone benefitted from your input?Dagnir said:
Why can't people just accept the consequences of their actions anymore?
Do you know what the consequences of her actions were? Was anyone [other than the OP's wife] inconvenienced? Or maimed? Or killed? Dagnir said:
She stopped where she shouldnt have, she's in the wrong, accept her bloody punishment ffs!
What if said punishment, a fine of £110, is wholly disproportionate for the offence?Dagnir said:
I loathe this age of arrogance and entitlement!!
See, I loathe this age that lacks common sense and discretion...TheGroover said:
You don't park in bus stops. I doubt the highway code says "unless the buses aren't running, then it's ok". It may well be stupid, but if you park there you're just making it easy for them.
At my daughters school there's a long bus stop for the school buses, room for maybe 10 , on a weekend the school is closed so the parents that take their kids to sunday morning football park in the bus stopWell until a few weeks ago when they all got a ticket so now instead of parking out of the way and causing no problem to anyone they park on the road where it's legal but makes 200m of road difficult to pass.
Busses are in and out of bus stops day and night with high frequency and often need the high curbs to drop people off like wheelchairs etc When someone parks in the bus stop they are forced to use non designated areas and prevent other busses from passing to use other stops. The enforcement officer saw your wife stopped and took her details, the council has all the proof they need, pictures are not required. Pay the fine, learn lesson.
I would simply say I don't think it was me, can I please see the evidence, photo, cctv etc.
When they can't provide it tell them in a polite manner to foxtrot oscar but it wasn't your car there at that time and the warden must have incorrectly identified the vehicle in question.
No proof no crime.
When they can't provide it tell them in a polite manner to foxtrot oscar but it wasn't your car there at that time and the warden must have incorrectly identified the vehicle in question.
No proof no crime.
My post wasn't aimed directly at this thread tbh, this section of the forum is often awash with 'I did somethign wrong, help me escape punishment threads'.
Anyhow, this is silly. I may have been over zealous when applied to this particular case but generally speaking (and going by the evidence in this section) a lot of people on here seem to think that even though they acknowledge they are in the wrong, they should get away with it.
Cider Andy said:
Quite. Do you think anyone benefitted from your input?
Well it gave you a chance to get on your high horse and play devil's advocate...so maybe.Cider Andy said:
Do you know what the consequences of her actions were? Was anyone [other than the OP's wife] inconvenienced? Or maimed? Or killed?
How is that relevant? If someone steals a Mars bar from a supermarket (and gets away with it) are there any serious consequences?Cider Andy said:
What if said punishment, a fine of £110, is wholly disproportionate for the offence?
The law doesn't work that way unfortunately. It should but it doesn'tCider Andy said:
See, I loathe this age that lacks common sense and discretion...
The common sense to not stop where one shouldn't?Anyhow, this is silly. I may have been over zealous when applied to this particular case but generally speaking (and going by the evidence in this section) a lot of people on here seem to think that even though they acknowledge they are in the wrong, they should get away with it.
vonhosen said:
TooMany2cvs said:
vonhosen said:
Sheepshanks said:
Took one of my kids into town at midnight for the release of some new game. There's a bus lay-by very near the shop and I'd have waited there but it was full of cars parked by people also visiting the shop. The Police came along and ticketed them all. No buses run at that time of night.
If the law didn't apply at that time of night they could appeal it.Dagnir said:
My post wasn't aimed directly at this thread tbh, this section of the forum is often awash with 'I did somethign wrong, help me escape punishment threads'.
No high horses were ridden in the writing of this reply. Although I'll admit to the playing of a devil's advocate.
Yes. It's theft, whatever the scale.
Exactly my point.
I wouldn't do it myself.
Not again, anyway....
Anyhow, this is silly. I may have been over zealous when applied to this particular case but generally speaking (and going by the evidence in this section) a lot of people on here seem to think that even though they acknowledge they are in the wrong, they should get away with it.
I agree wholeheartedly.Cider Andy said:
Quite. Do you think anyone benefitted from your input?
Well it gave you a chance to get on your high horse and play devil's advocate...so maybe.No high horses were ridden in the writing of this reply. Although I'll admit to the playing of a devil's advocate.
Cider Andy said:
Do you know what the consequences of her actions were? Was anyone [other than the OP's wife] inconvenienced? Or maimed? Or killed?
How is that relevant? If someone steals a Mars bar from a supermarket (and gets away with it) are there any serious consequences?Yes. It's theft, whatever the scale.
Cider Andy said:
What if said punishment, a fine of £110, is wholly disproportionate for the offence?
The law doesn't work that way unfortunately. It should but it doesn'tExactly my point.
Cider Andy said:
See, I loathe this age that lacks common sense and discretion...
The common sense to not stop where one shouldn't?I wouldn't do it myself.
Not again, anyway....
Anyhow, this is silly. I may have been over zealous when applied to this particular case but generally speaking (and going by the evidence in this section) a lot of people on here seem to think that even though they acknowledge they are in the wrong, they should get away with it.
Glassman - have you responded to the Council yet?
I'd write and say none of the drivers of the car have any recollection of being in that vicinity and could they provide any evidence It was indeed your vehicle - that'll tell you one way or another whether they have or not. If it's just an enforcement officers word against yours then the officer could be mistaken, transcribed a digit incorrectly or there could even a cloned plate involved. Also say incidentally I noted the arrive and leave time appears to be an error as they are the same which is a little bizarre.
I suspect a politely written letter without any admissions will see the ticket cancelled.
If they do comeback at you there are numerous reasons why you could have stopped (not parked and there is a difference) briefly.
I'd write and say none of the drivers of the car have any recollection of being in that vicinity and could they provide any evidence It was indeed your vehicle - that'll tell you one way or another whether they have or not. If it's just an enforcement officers word against yours then the officer could be mistaken, transcribed a digit incorrectly or there could even a cloned plate involved. Also say incidentally I noted the arrive and leave time appears to be an error as they are the same which is a little bizarre.
I suspect a politely written letter without any admissions will see the ticket cancelled.
If they do comeback at you there are numerous reasons why you could have stopped (not parked and there is a difference) briefly.
Cider Andy said:
I detest seeing PCNs issued in this way. It relies solely on the fact an absolute offence was committed without taking common sense, discretion or compassion into account.
Now, I've no idea what her intentions were or whether she had caused an obstruction or endangered any pedestrians etc. But if she's planning an appeal she might want to ask this question:
"When is a bus stop not a bus stop?"
What I mean by this is, if the borough is simply relying 100% on legislation in order to gain revenue, they also need to be complying 100% with the legislation themselves. I'll give you a few pointers:
Unless any of the legislation has changed in the last two years, the PCN will have been issued under the Traffic Management Act 2004, Schedule 7, Part 1, Section 3(2)(h)(ii) and it will relate to an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 36(1) when failing to heed a sign as prescribed by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 29(1). For an offence to have been committed, the bus stop has to be set out according to The Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Schedule 6, diagram 1025.1. The dimensions and tolerance of each of the elements of the bus stop are defined in the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (10) and the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (5) states the tolerances must be met.
I wouldn't be surprised if said bus stop fails to constitute a bus stop in law in a number of different ways. And if it doesn't, she can't have committed an offence.....
I had a parking ticket for parking in a road with bays but my rear wheel were over the side line - ie the car and wheels were too wide for the bay. I had paid to park there.Now, I've no idea what her intentions were or whether she had caused an obstruction or endangered any pedestrians etc. But if she's planning an appeal she might want to ask this question:
"When is a bus stop not a bus stop?"
What I mean by this is, if the borough is simply relying 100% on legislation in order to gain revenue, they also need to be complying 100% with the legislation themselves. I'll give you a few pointers:
Unless any of the legislation has changed in the last two years, the PCN will have been issued under the Traffic Management Act 2004, Schedule 7, Part 1, Section 3(2)(h)(ii) and it will relate to an offence under the Road Traffic Act 1988 Section 36(1) when failing to heed a sign as prescribed by The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 Section 29(1). For an offence to have been committed, the bus stop has to be set out according to The Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Schedule 6, diagram 1025.1. The dimensions and tolerance of each of the elements of the bus stop are defined in the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (10) and the Traffic Signs Regulations And General Directions 2002 Section 12 (5) states the tolerances must be met.
I wouldn't be surprised if said bus stop fails to constitute a bus stop in law in a number of different ways. And if it doesn't, she can't have committed an offence.....
Looked into it and the bay was too narrow by the regulations. Wrote and told them and they cancelled the ticket on this occasion. A whole section of curved road was painted incorrectly.
elanfan said:
Glassman - have you responded to the Council yet?
I'd write and say none of the drivers of the car have any recollection of being in that vicinity and could they provide any evidence It was indeed your vehicle - that'll tell you one way or another whether they have or not. If it's just an enforcement officers word against yours then the officer could be mistaken, transcribed a digit incorrectly or there could even a cloned plate involved. Also say incidentally I noted the arrive and leave time appears to be an error as they are the same which is a little bizarre.
I suspect a politely written letter without any admissions will see the ticket cancelled.
If they do comeback at you there are numerous reasons why you could have stopped (not parked and there is a difference) briefly.
The offence is:I'd write and say none of the drivers of the car have any recollection of being in that vicinity and could they provide any evidence It was indeed your vehicle - that'll tell you one way or another whether they have or not. If it's just an enforcement officers word against yours then the officer could be mistaken, transcribed a digit incorrectly or there could even a cloned plate involved. Also say incidentally I noted the arrive and leave time appears to be an error as they are the same which is a little bizarre.
I suspect a politely written letter without any admissions will see the ticket cancelled.
If they do comeback at you there are numerous reasons why you could have stopped (not parked and there is a difference) briefly.
"Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand"
At no point does it say parked, clearly there is no time element as stopping is an instant process hence the time element being the same minute. You will fail trying to discredit the officer concerned, their word is good enough and as you're suggesting earlier the driver(s) can not recollect their movements at the time is going to be far more credible.
Pay the fine, move on.
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