Shotgun Cartridges and the law?

[Big Al.]

I'm bases in West Sussex, and having recently applied for a shotgun licence; today I had a visit from my local Firearms Enquiry Officer to not only check me out but also the installation of my gun cabinet.

It would appear that he was satisfied that everything was in order. Phew!

During our chat I asked a few questions about shot gun cartilages (SGC).

My first question was, do I need a licence to be in possession of SGC? he replied NO you only need a licence to buy them from a licenced arms dealer. You could have been given or bought them from someone who bought them legally (with a SG licence). It is not illegal to buy SGC from anyone without a SGC as long as it's not an arms dealer.

I was surprised with his answer to say the least.

Second question was, how do I store them? In a cool, Dry place, is that all I asked, YES was his reply.

Third question was, do they have to be stored in a locked safe away from your gun cabinet? again NO was his reply only a cool dry place out of general view.

Second Surprise of our conversation.

My third and final question was if he were me where would he store them in my home? for small amounts 100 - 300 Qty, IN MY GUN CABINET along with my gun.

I said I thought that was not allowed, as I spoke to a few guys on a clay shoot in Dorset last Sunday and all said Must be in a locked cabinet away from Gun cabinet, his reply was BARRACK ROOM LAWYERS! back up with I know the law.

Third surprise of the day!

So I light of the laws in West Sussex, are they the same in your area? if not why? surely it must be the same law that covers the whole of England and Wales should it not?

TYIA

[Greg_D]

Exactly the same in west Mercia. You could keep your cartridges under your kids pillow if you wanted to...

[cmaguire]

You could keep them on your dining room table if it floats your boat.

My gun cabinets are mounted on the wall in a cupboard under the stairs. The shotgun shells are in the cupboard but not in the cabinets.
Ammunition for firearms are different, you are supposed to keep the firing pin and ammunition in a separate locked place to the guns (so usually a different compartment with separate key in the same cabinet).

[Some Gump]

I take gun safety incredibly seriously. The Nerf guns are locked in the attic, and the foam dart ammo down the back of the boy's wardrobe.

[overunder12g]

OP I think you are confusing shotgun rules with firearms rules.
Nothing stopping you from buying a shotgun, or any other, down the pub from someone without a licence so not sure what your point is.Illegal, but happens.
I think, not sure, firearms ammo needs to be stored away from the gun. Why the difference, again, not sure.
Anyway, enjoy your shooting.

[cmaguire]

overunder12g said:

OP I think you are confusing shotgun rules with firearms rules.
Nothing stopping you from buying a shotgun, or any other, down the pub from someone without a licence so not sure what your point is.Illegal, but happens.
I think, not sure, firearms ammo needs to be stored away from the gun. Why the difference, again, not sure.
Anyway, enjoy your shooting.

I've never met anyone down the pub selling shotguns without a licence. Does this go on at Sunday Autojumbles too?

[overunder12g]

Not Autojumbles.

[rxe]

For shotgun cartridges, the regulations are very slack. I have several thousand in the utility room, I've got a box in the Land-Rover, several on the desk in my office, and a couple on the ledge of the extractor fan in the kitchen. You can get cartridges delivered by courier and left on your doorstep if you're out.

Metallic ammunition (a.k.a. bullets) is different. Mine is all in a locked compartment in a different gun cupboard to the rifles, and the bolts are in a locked compartment in the main cupboard. Paranoid? Sure. But I really don't want a burglar to get their hands on a working rifle.

I find the slackness around shotgun ammunition slightly surprising.

[Big Al.]

overunder12g said:

OP I think you are confusing shotgun rules with firearms rules.
Nothing stopping you from buying a shotgun, or any other, down the pub from someone without a licence so not sure what your point is.Illegal, but happens.
I think, not sure, firearms ammo needs to be stored away from the gun. Why the difference, again, not sure.
Anyway, enjoy your shooting.

IIRC the Law as it stands at the moment is you cannot buy or possess a Shotgun without a licence, buying a shotgun from a guy down the pub would land you both in big trouble legally. Even someone who has a SGL must enter the gun on his licence if he intends for it to be in possession of said gun for more that 72 hours.

There is no confusion regarding Firearms (Rifles & Pistols) I understand the the rule are a lot stricter regarding ammunition. Purely talking cartilages here...

[cmaguire]

rxe said:

For shotgun cartridges, the regulations are very slack. I have several thousand in the utility room, I've got a box in the Land-Rover, several on the desk in my office, and a couple on the ledge of the extractor fan in the kitchen. You can get cartridges delivered by courier and left on your doorstep if you're out.

Metallic ammunition (a.k.a. bullets) is different. Mine is all in a locked compartment in a different gun cupboard to the rifles, and the bolts are in a locked compartment in the main cupboard. Paranoid? Sure. But I really don't want a burglar to get their hands on a working rifle.

I find the slackness around shotgun ammunition slightly surprising.

Legally held guns are rarely stolen though, and the ammunition is pretty useless without the gun. In addition to which a shotgun would lend itself to criminal behaviour far more readily than a rifle, so although the rules regarding shotgun ammunition are oddly lax, the rules concerning firearm ammunition and firing pin are arguably over-protective.
The FAC shotgun I have would present a far greater risk in the wrong hands than the rifle.

[Greg_D]

I'm happy to be corrected but as I understand it you don't have to separate the rifle bolt from the rifle action to be compliant with the law.

You do you have to keep rifle ammunition in a separate locked safe though. The top box in a standard safe is okay as far as West Mercia is concerned and that's where I keep my rifle ammo.

As a point of note though you do need to be extremely careful that you don't tell your wife where the keys are to any of your safes.

if the officer comes round and asks her where the keys are and she can provide them then she technically has access to the guns and you can get in very deep water over that. I also believe that there is a specification that you cannot keep the keys attached to your bunch of car keys as that is too obvious for any wannabe criminals

[cmaguire]

Certainly where I am the Police expect the rifle bolt to be locked separately from the rifle, so with the ammunition is fine.

How much of a fuss the FO would make if I'd forgotten to or just couldn't be bothered I don't know.

[Greg_D]

That's part of the problem. The guidance is very wishy washy and a lot of firearms officers frankly make stuff up. Do not confuse best practise with legal requirement.

For example you are not LEGALLY required to have a metal safe to secure your shotguns. any space not considered publicly accessible (i.e. Not the downstairs toilet or kitchen wall) is fine as long as there is a restraint. So "technically" in a downstairs cupboard held in by a padlock and chain or a trigger lock is legal ( but I stress..... not advisable )

[cmaguire]

Greg_D said:

That's part of the problem. The guidance is very wishy washy and a lot of firearms officers frankly make stuff up. Do not confuse best practise with legal requirement.

For example you are not LEGALLY required to have a metal safe to secure your shotguns. any space not considered publicly accessible (i.e. Not the downstairs toilet or kitchen wall) is fine as long as there is a restraint. So "technically" in a downstairs cupboard held in by a padlock and chain or a trigger lock is legal ( but I stress..... not advisable )

Back in the late 80's/early 90's my gun cabinet was a run-of-the-mill locker made of thin steel you would find in the workplace. Back then I had a 9mm semi-auto in it. I doubt that would pass muster now, and thanks to Michael Ryan it wouldn't have the pistol in it anyway.

[creampuff]

cmaguire said:

Certainly where I am the Police expect the rifle bolt to be locked separately from the rifle, so with the ammunition is fine.

How much of a fuss the FO would make if I'd forgotten to or just couldn't be bothered I don't know.

That is the first I've ever heard of that. Also in the case of semi-autos which in the U.K. Is 22s or Sect 1 shotguns, taking the bolt out can be a major event and isn't practical.

[creampuff]

In the case of shotgun cartridges, isn't there a limit on the cartridge you can buy on a SGC? Like no 4 birdshot or something? Or am I mistaken?

[creampuff]

Found this thread about storing the bolt separate :

https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/archive/ind...

[smack]

creampuff said:

cmaguire said:

Certainly where I am the Police expect the rifle bolt to be locked separately from the rifle, so with the ammunition is fine.

How much of a fuss the FO would make if I'd forgotten to or just couldn't be bothered I don't know.

That is the first I've ever heard of that. Also in the case of semi-autos which in the U.K. Is 22s or Sect 1 shotguns, taking the bolt out can be a major event and isn't practical.

You don't need to remove the bolt/firing pin.

creampuff said:

In the case of shotgun cartridges, isn't there a limit on the cartridge you can buy on a SGC? Like no 4 birdshot or something? Or am I mistaken?

Slugs are section 1, and need to be listed on a FAC. Practical shotgun is justification for them.

Another thing to note is any (live) rifle or pistol ammunition requires to be listed on your FAC for you to be in possession of it. A SGC does not cover you if you go shooting rifles and you go home with a few unfired round. Technically a member of the Military or Police who is issued firearms as part of their job, is breaking the law if they have in their possession live ammunition the moment they clock off - unless they have a FAC including calibre of ammunition in question. But then having to explain that you haven't pinched that ammo can of Radway Green's finest 5.56 in the boot of your car as you leave a MOD base is another matter!

[creampuff]

> Slugs are section 1, and need to be listed on a FAC. Practical shotgun is justification for them.

Can you get buckshot (as opposed to birdshot) on a SGC?

> Another thing to note is any (live) rifle or pistol ammunition requires to be listed on your FAC for you to be in possession of it.

Yes, it's another world to the US where I put the ammunition into the shopping trolley at Walmart along with the groceries.

> Technically a member of the Military or Police who is issued firearms as part of their job, is breaking the law if they have in their possession live ammunition the moment they clock off - unless they have a FAC including calibre of ammunition in question.

I think even if they have a FAC with that ammo on it, if they go home with on the job ammo they will still be breaking the law as it needs to be entered on the FAC.

Edited by creampuff on Friday 12th May 06:04

[TooMany2cvs]

rxe said:

For shotgun cartridges, the regulations are very slack. I have several thousand in the utility room, I've got a box in the Land-Rover, several on the desk in my office, and a couple on the ledge of the extractor fan in the kitchen. You can get cartridges delivered by courier and left on your doorstep if you're out.

Metallic ammunition (a.k.a. bullets) is different. Mine is all in a locked compartment in a different gun cupboard to the rifles, and the bolts are in a locked compartment in the main cupboard. Paranoid? Sure. But I really don't want a burglar to get their hands on a working rifle.

But there'd be no problem with a burglar getting their hands on a loaded shotgun, right?

rxe said:

I find the slackness around shotgun ammunition slightly surprising.

Surely there's two questions here...
Is the law slack? Perhaps.
Does that mean you have to be slack, too? Umm...

If you think the law should be stricter, there's really nothing to stop you from being stricter yourself, is there? I mean, if the law requires shotgun cartridges to be kept in Land Rovers, I'm screwed, since my Landy's completely unarmed.

smack said:

Slugs are section 1, and need to be listed on a FAC. Practical shotgun is justification for them.

Bloody hell. This is where we've been going wrong with our veg patch. Thanks for the tip. Not sure the greenhouse will survive, though... Presumably, for snails, nothing short of an AK47 will do?