Private/Council Litter Police - powers to arrest or detain?
Discussion
I watched a Panorama programme on the Litter Police last night - an undercover investigation of a firm called Kingdom http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08mk133 who are contracted by many Local Authorities to enforce litter laws.
It was mainly about the shady/fraudulent methods employed by the firms to issue Fixed Penalty Notices for littering. They don't charge the councils for their services - they are paid entirely from revenue from fines.
There was lots of footage of 'enforcement officers' misrepresenting the truth about what was 'litter' and what would happen if people wouldn't give their names and addresses etc etc.
One woman was followed by a 'poo officer' across a park demanding her identity and that she pay a fine but refusing to tell/show her where her dog had pooed.
He 'read her rights' to her - 'anything you say could be used in court' etc
He wasn't a police officer.
He didn't seem to physically touch her but he pursued her and eventually called the real police - I think.
However, what I couldn't make out from the programme was what the actual powers of arrest and detention given to Enforcement officers?
What can they do if a 'suspect' walks away non-violently?
Or refuses to supply name and address?
Can they legally use physical restraint on a person to detain until the real police arrive?
Do the police attend littering calls from these people?
It was mainly about the shady/fraudulent methods employed by the firms to issue Fixed Penalty Notices for littering. They don't charge the councils for their services - they are paid entirely from revenue from fines.
There was lots of footage of 'enforcement officers' misrepresenting the truth about what was 'litter' and what would happen if people wouldn't give their names and addresses etc etc.
One woman was followed by a 'poo officer' across a park demanding her identity and that she pay a fine but refusing to tell/show her where her dog had pooed.
He 'read her rights' to her - 'anything you say could be used in court' etc
He wasn't a police officer.
He didn't seem to physically touch her but he pursued her and eventually called the real police - I think.
However, what I couldn't make out from the programme was what the actual powers of arrest and detention given to Enforcement officers?
What can they do if a 'suspect' walks away non-violently?
Or refuses to supply name and address?
Can they legally use physical restraint on a person to detain until the real police arrive?
Do the police attend littering calls from these people?
footnote said:
I watched a Panorama programme on the Litter Police last night - an undercover investigation of a firm called Kingdom http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08mk133 who are contracted by many Local Authorities to enforce litter laws.
It was mainly about the shady/fraudulent methods employed by the firms to issue Fixed Penalty Notices for littering. They don't charge the councils for their services - they are paid entirely from revenue from fines.
There was lots of footage of 'enforcement officers' misrepresenting the truth about what was 'litter' and what would happen if people wouldn't give their names and addresses etc etc.
One woman was followed by a 'poo officer' across a park demanding her identity and that she pay a fine but refusing to tell/show her where her dog had pooed.
He 'read her rights' to her - 'anything you say could be used in court' etc
He wasn't a police officer.
He didn't seem to physically touch her but he pursued her and eventually called the real police - I think.
However, what I couldn't make out from the programme was what the actual powers of arrest and detention given to Enforcement officers?
What can they do if a 'suspect' walks away non-violently?
Or refuses to supply name and address?
Can they legally use physical restraint on a person to detain until the real police arrive?
Do the police attend littering calls from these people?
I watched it too and was astonished at the tactics employed. I was amazed at the guy asking for a break as he was on benefits as the "Authorised officer" informed him he was legally obliged to give details or would be liable to arrest. It was mainly about the shady/fraudulent methods employed by the firms to issue Fixed Penalty Notices for littering. They don't charge the councils for their services - they are paid entirely from revenue from fines.
There was lots of footage of 'enforcement officers' misrepresenting the truth about what was 'litter' and what would happen if people wouldn't give their names and addresses etc etc.
One woman was followed by a 'poo officer' across a park demanding her identity and that she pay a fine but refusing to tell/show her where her dog had pooed.
He 'read her rights' to her - 'anything you say could be used in court' etc
He wasn't a police officer.
He didn't seem to physically touch her but he pursued her and eventually called the real police - I think.
However, what I couldn't make out from the programme was what the actual powers of arrest and detention given to Enforcement officers?
What can they do if a 'suspect' walks away non-violently?
Or refuses to supply name and address?
Can they legally use physical restraint on a person to detain until the real police arrive?
Do the police attend littering calls from these people?
I can't imagine Plod turning out for a dropped fag end and I see no power that the Litter Police can employ compelling me to give details. Finally I would love to see them detain anyone and not end up on the wrong side of either Plod or a good shoeing.
How ludicrous is a system that incentivises not only the issuance of fixed penalties but does so incrementally for volume?
If it were the Police then failing to identify yourself certainly carries a power of arrest but I cant imagine they would ever get tangled up in this type of scheme.
Didn't see the programme but I wonder whether the clip you refer to is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-_CXAOq2QI
To say it is troubling is an understatement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-_CXAOq2QI
To say it is troubling is an understatement.
They're civilians like you or I so have no powers to detain for a littering offence imo. All they can do is follow you and hope a PC arrives. I don't think PCSO's can detain you either.
I've also noticed the bailiffs in 'Can't pay, we'll take it away' pulling a few strokes. They're from a private debt collection agency and nothing to do officially with the High Court apart from the fact they pick up jobs from there.
All in all these sorts are trying to look more official and threatening.
I've also noticed the bailiffs in 'Can't pay, we'll take it away' pulling a few strokes. They're from a private debt collection agency and nothing to do officially with the High Court apart from the fact they pick up jobs from there.
All in all these sorts are trying to look more official and threatening.
PCSOs can be authorised to detain for 30 minutes.
In terms of names and addresses, the power is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
The question is, is someone working for Kingdom on behalf of an LA an 'authorised officer' for the purposes of the above legislation?
Their website and branding is awful: http://www.kingdom.co.uk/services/environmental-pr...
In terms of names and addresses, the power is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
The question is, is someone working for Kingdom on behalf of an LA an 'authorised officer' for the purposes of the above legislation?
Their website and branding is awful: http://www.kingdom.co.uk/services/environmental-pr...
2Btoo said:
Didn't see the programme but I wonder whether the clip you refer to is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-_CXAOq2QI
To say it is troubling is an understatement.
Gosh, didn't they make a fool of the jobsworth. Sadly enough others would probably have rolled over. I'd have taken him for a nice long dog walk and told him all about my train spotting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-_CXAOq2QI
To say it is troubling is an understatement.
I (holding my hands up and accepting any criticism) was collared by such a womble, on behalf of Wandsworth council. I had dropped an apple core into a roadside drain in plain sight of him and his body camera. I was polite and pleasant, and he returned the same, and I took the £80 fine on the chin as a reminder of laziness.
However, it dawned upon me that I was really under no obligation to give him any details, and I could have chosen to walk away from him or not provide any ID when requested. I was right outside a tube station, and could have been a few miles up the road (underground) in a matter of minutes. What do we think would have been the repercussions of doing this?
However, it dawned upon me that I was really under no obligation to give him any details, and I could have chosen to walk away from him or not provide any ID when requested. I was right outside a tube station, and could have been a few miles up the road (underground) in a matter of minutes. What do we think would have been the repercussions of doing this?
La Liga said:
PCSOs can be authorised to detain for 30 minutes.
In terms of names and addresses, the power is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
Thanks but if you give your name and address then surely you can go about your business? Assuming you've not commited a crime that a MOP could arrest you for?In terms of names and addresses, the power is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
Edited by Boosted LS1 on Tuesday 16th May 14:17
Boosted LS1 said:
La Liga said:
PCSOs can be authorised to detain for 30 minutes.
In terms of names and addresses, the power is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
Thanks but if you give your name and address then surely you can go about your business? Assuming you've not commited a crime that a MOP could arrest you for?In terms of names and addresses, the power is here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio...
I don't like the idea of a private company doing enforcement. Especially when there's a link between income / profit and enforcement.
^ I used to serve a lot of process, occasionally magistrates, mostly CCT and some HCT. I never once made myself out to be an 'official' or an 'officer' and at the end of the day I had no more powers then anybody else on the street. I didn't dress up in carb in order to look like a PC.
If the LA delegates the work to a private company I wouldn't regard those people as being officers for the purpose of the legislation. It would be interesting to see if it's ever been tested at Ct.
I thought the woman in the clip was on the ball and I especially thought it funny 'where is the poo', ha ha.
If the LA delegates the work to a private company I wouldn't regard those people as being officers for the purpose of the legislation. It would be interesting to see if it's ever been tested at Ct.
I thought the woman in the clip was on the ball and I especially thought it funny 'where is the poo', ha ha.
I had this with a jobsworth train t
t
I had forgotten my wallet with my monthly Travelcard, so a £20 fine, the guy had a bad attitude from the off so i reflected his attitude
He suddenly didnt believe the details I had given him so asked me to confirm my missus name (electoral roll check I think) I refused stating I didnt have to, we back and forthed for a bit and ended up with me asking him HIS wifes name (which he obviously wouldnt give), i couldnt back up my details with any ID so he wanted to 'detain' me
I explained what would happen if he attempted to, so he called over the proper police, they poo pooed everything he said and sent me on my merry way, prick
tI had forgotten my wallet with my monthly Travelcard, so a £20 fine, the guy had a bad attitude from the off so i reflected his attitude
He suddenly didnt believe the details I had given him so asked me to confirm my missus name (electoral roll check I think) I refused stating I didnt have to, we back and forthed for a bit and ended up with me asking him HIS wifes name (which he obviously wouldnt give), i couldnt back up my details with any ID so he wanted to 'detain' me
I explained what would happen if he attempted to, so he called over the proper police, they poo pooed everything he said and sent me on my merry way, prick
La Liga said:
kiethton said:
How are they going to verify the name you give, surely you'd just give them a moody one?
You can, but the encounters are recorded so you risk ending up in court and receiving a much larger fine / criminal record. (To do so is surely no more than to reply 'Jo Bloggs' should a random man on the street ask who you are).
There are so many 'paramilitary', quasi-police types wandering the streets laying down the law, I think it's becoming increasingly hard for the public to identify who the 'real' police are... maybe that's the point.
Between the RSPCA with their semi-military garb or the parking and litter police, it seems every 'authority' wants to appear to have physical strength by wearing 'police' style uniforms.
It's really disturbing.
I mean, it's just psychological intimidation tactics really.
All of these people could do really worthwhile jobs in social care or agriculture but they prefer to march around inmtimidating and fleecing the public - however worthy the aim of a tidy Britain is.
Can Councils actually empower officers to physically detain people? Or are they committing an 'assault' if they do that?
Between the RSPCA with their semi-military garb or the parking and litter police, it seems every 'authority' wants to appear to have physical strength by wearing 'police' style uniforms.
It's really disturbing.
I mean, it's just psychological intimidation tactics really.
All of these people could do really worthwhile jobs in social care or agriculture but they prefer to march around inmtimidating and fleecing the public - however worthy the aim of a tidy Britain is.
Can Councils actually empower officers to physically detain people? Or are they committing an 'assault' if they do that?
2Btoo said:
La Liga said:
kiethton said:
How are they going to verify the name you give, surely you'd just give them a moody one?
You can, but the encounters are recorded so you risk ending up in court and receiving a much larger fine / criminal record. (To do so is surely no more than to reply 'Jo Bloggs' should a random man on the street ask who you are).
footnote said:
Can Councils actually empower officers to physically detain people? Or are they committing an 'assault' if they do that?
In Ealing... 
They'd leave in an ambulance. I like Ealing and have friends there. But it's not somewhere I'd like to go and have to "detain" people. Even the police patrol in little teams.
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