Soldiers vs Armed Police
Discussion
As most of us know soldiers have been deployed on our streets after the attack in Manchester and it got me wondering, who is better at the job at hand?
How does their training differ, their engagement tactics and their weaponry? I know the police are limited to semi automatic and are generally taught to contain and arrest, but I am guessing soldiers are different?
How does their training differ, their engagement tactics and their weaponry? I know the police are limited to semi automatic and are generally taught to contain and arrest, but I am guessing soldiers are different?
Aren't the army doing the mundane stuff like presence at buckingham palace and other places of interest where the police are being deployed to areas that are seen as high risk or they have intel for?
In terms of training I would of thought the army is of a much higher standard.
Rules of engagement will obviously be different but as the army are incredibly well discipled I'm sure they can adapt.
Remember alot of police officers are ex military.
In terms of training I would of thought the army is of a much higher standard.
Rules of engagement will obviously be different but as the army are incredibly well discipled I'm sure they can adapt.
Remember alot of police officers are ex military.
I would suggest it depends on what the end goal was.
A battle - soldier. Armed policing - er, armed police.
IMO (no expert here) but I imagine the goals of training a soldier to fight an enemy versus training a police offer to use a firearm to protect the public are slightly different.
I would imagine the police to have a greater level of restraint under certain circumstances. I would imagine a soldier to show more aggression when it comes to the use of firearms in some circumstances, most likely down to their training.
I've heard the phrase "controlled aggression" with regards to British Army soldiers and their approach.
Obviously I'm not talking about the more specialist police "SWAT" teams such as SFOs, CTSFOs (SO19/CO19 etc), and whatever else alphabet soup names they go by nowadays to be absolute specialists at what they do, and arguably better suited to that job than an infantryman. Then again, the top of the pile is UKSF.
Soldiers have been visibly deployed, but members of UKSF are already involved and have been since the start.
Anyway, back to Ultimate Force for me
A battle - soldier. Armed policing - er, armed police.
IMO (no expert here) but I imagine the goals of training a soldier to fight an enemy versus training a police offer to use a firearm to protect the public are slightly different.
I would imagine the police to have a greater level of restraint under certain circumstances. I would imagine a soldier to show more aggression when it comes to the use of firearms in some circumstances, most likely down to their training.
I've heard the phrase "controlled aggression" with regards to British Army soldiers and their approach.
Obviously I'm not talking about the more specialist police "SWAT" teams such as SFOs, CTSFOs (SO19/CO19 etc), and whatever else alphabet soup names they go by nowadays to be absolute specialists at what they do, and arguably better suited to that job than an infantryman. Then again, the top of the pile is UKSF.
Soldiers have been visibly deployed, but members of UKSF are already involved and have been since the start.
Anyway, back to Ultimate Force for me
I may be able to assist here.
First thing to say is Skill sets differ between the army and police , it's not simply a case of both carry guns therefore .....but that's not to say there isn't considerable skill cross over.....
if this was happening a generation ago I d suggest the army would be better able to deal with it, Northern Ireland was the last theatre on the British soil that required similar levels of 'policing' from the military, times change and recent operations have been focused differently, however there have been facets of policing in Afghan and Iraq once the initial dust has settled, that's the cross over that will pay dividends in this situation .
What's fantastic is the British army are the most professional in the world and the adaptability is second to none, we don't lack the skills but sometimes we lack the right kit to get the job done but always manage to make it work.
UKSF and SFSG are already deployed and active up and down the country in support of counter terror police, and I d suggest there's a few hastily prepared 'use of force' briefs being given!
What will be seen is soldiers being partnered up with police and following direction at ground level rather than soldiers cutting about without street level oversight.
The most important thing is deploying these troops is to free up the police to more effectively do their jobs.
Whilst much of this work is done in the shadows you better believe that all the security forces are working overtime to take the fight to these scumbags.
First thing to say is Skill sets differ between the army and police , it's not simply a case of both carry guns therefore .....but that's not to say there isn't considerable skill cross over.....
if this was happening a generation ago I d suggest the army would be better able to deal with it, Northern Ireland was the last theatre on the British soil that required similar levels of 'policing' from the military, times change and recent operations have been focused differently, however there have been facets of policing in Afghan and Iraq once the initial dust has settled, that's the cross over that will pay dividends in this situation .
What's fantastic is the British army are the most professional in the world and the adaptability is second to none, we don't lack the skills but sometimes we lack the right kit to get the job done but always manage to make it work.
UKSF and SFSG are already deployed and active up and down the country in support of counter terror police, and I d suggest there's a few hastily prepared 'use of force' briefs being given!
What will be seen is soldiers being partnered up with police and following direction at ground level rather than soldiers cutting about without street level oversight.
The most important thing is deploying these troops is to free up the police to more effectively do their jobs.
Whilst much of this work is done in the shadows you better believe that all the security forces are working overtime to take the fight to these scumbags.
Edited by Fckitdriveon on Wednesday 24th May 22:40
Edited by Fckitdriveon on Wednesday 24th May 22:41
A soldier with a great big FO gun, is a lot more scarey than a Policeman.
Plus of course, if the soldier has done a tour, they are used to shooting at the baddies.
Having said that, the sig sauer 516 assault rifles the CTU were carrying around my hospital last March looked pretty effective.
Plus of course, if the soldier has done a tour, they are used to shooting at the baddies.
Having said that, the sig sauer 516 assault rifles the CTU were carrying around my hospital last March looked pretty effective.
Whoever has the guns, we need a will to fully protect them from the liberal backlash if they ever shoot anyone.
I would guess that a Police officer will be better versed in the law and will be forced to shout a warning, hopefully if a solider see's someone with a knife, gun. bomb they just shoot the f
kers and have done with it. Get a big pat on the back and move on without being hounded.
I would guess that a Police officer will be better versed in the law and will be forced to shout a warning, hopefully if a solider see's someone with a knife, gun. bomb they just shoot the f
kers and have done with it. Get a big pat on the back and move on without being hounded.spaximus said:
Whoever has the guns, we need a will to fully protect them from the liberal backlash if they ever shoot anyone.
I would guess that a Police officer will be better versed in the law and will be forced to shout a warning, hopefully if a solider see's someone with a knife, gun. bomb they just shoot the fkers and have done with it. Get a big pat on the back and move on without being hounded.
I'm not sure that is precisely what has happened in the past when soldiers have opened fire.I would guess that a Police officer will be better versed in the law and will be forced to shout a warning, hopefully if a solider see's someone with a knife, gun. bomb they just shoot the f
kers and have done with it. Get a big pat on the back and move on without being hounded.May not be practical to verbally challenge. Ideally yes, but situation may dictate otherwise.
In the case of a Police rifleman - usually seen on rooftops in the media, but when operating as cover for a containment or for an entry team may well not be visible - distance & circumstances may make a verbal challenge impractical or pointless.
Miitary rules of engagement also have the verbal challenge element. But as above, circumstances may dictate otherwise.
Some may remember the Army's yellow card from Northern Ireland:
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/rules-of...
In the case of a Police rifleman - usually seen on rooftops in the media, but when operating as cover for a containment or for an entry team may well not be visible - distance & circumstances may make a verbal challenge impractical or pointless.
Miitary rules of engagement also have the verbal challenge element. But as above, circumstances may dictate otherwise.
Some may remember the Army's yellow card from Northern Ireland:
http://mikeb302000.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/rules-of...
Have had some exp of this having done multiple NI tours during the height of the troubles, i've also done several deployments overseas to africs & ME working govt contracts in PMC roles in direct support of local govts.
Key thing to remember is that BritFor are on the UK streets at direct request of the chief constable/commissioner of whichever force. In all cases they are there within a police primacy role - the law as it stands is the law. i.e. no emergency powers act invoked & all that palaver. No slotting of ppl arbitrarily. Good thing. Back in the day they would have been using ROE as per what was called the yellow card - challenge & all that lark.
These days its changed a lot inc police deployment of armed specialist teams....they do have authority at local commander level to shoot to kill (plus there is no such thing as shoot to wound - you try getting shot, it fooking hurts & generally causes a lot of damage) so during what I would imagine joint briefings of plod/army they'd be getting the same ROE. On the basis the troops are only replacing armed cops on static guarding duties freeing the polis up to be more flexible elsewhere the likelihood is negligible of some tool deciding to have a go. Although the french soldier getting stabbed in the airport while on patrol says it does happen.
Wrt to UKSF on the streets, a lot of the media hype is just that. There aren't enough blokes in the SAS/SBS sabre squadrons to go around - if we assume the pics the Daily Heil is using are actually SF then somehow we've got a few thousand SF bods....in actual fact we've got a hell of lot less than that & most are deployed overseas.. SFSG are actually just more specialised squaddies, effectively only a batt (1PARA) of inf 500-700 men. Couple that with the ongoing deployments of SF across the globe (IRQ & AFG) & there isn't a big pool of bodies to draw from. What we are probably seeing is more specially trained coppers wearing the gucci kit. There maybe some SF knocking about but having them bimbling around the streets on patrols is not what they're used for - waste of the resource.
Key thing to remember is that BritFor are on the UK streets at direct request of the chief constable/commissioner of whichever force. In all cases they are there within a police primacy role - the law as it stands is the law. i.e. no emergency powers act invoked & all that palaver. No slotting of ppl arbitrarily. Good thing. Back in the day they would have been using ROE as per what was called the yellow card - challenge & all that lark.
These days its changed a lot inc police deployment of armed specialist teams....they do have authority at local commander level to shoot to kill (plus there is no such thing as shoot to wound - you try getting shot, it fooking hurts & generally causes a lot of damage) so during what I would imagine joint briefings of plod/army they'd be getting the same ROE. On the basis the troops are only replacing armed cops on static guarding duties freeing the polis up to be more flexible elsewhere the likelihood is negligible of some tool deciding to have a go. Although the french soldier getting stabbed in the airport while on patrol says it does happen.
Wrt to UKSF on the streets, a lot of the media hype is just that. There aren't enough blokes in the SAS/SBS sabre squadrons to go around - if we assume the pics the Daily Heil is using are actually SF then somehow we've got a few thousand SF bods....in actual fact we've got a hell of lot less than that & most are deployed overseas.. SFSG are actually just more specialised squaddies, effectively only a batt (1PARA) of inf 500-700 men. Couple that with the ongoing deployments of SF across the globe (IRQ & AFG) & there isn't a big pool of bodies to draw from. What we are probably seeing is more specially trained coppers wearing the gucci kit. There maybe some SF knocking about but having them bimbling around the streets on patrols is not what they're used for - waste of the resource.
Edited by Echo66 on Thursday 25th May 09:20
DaveH23 said:
Aren't the army doing the mundane stuff like presence at buckingham palace and other places of interest where the police are being deployed to areas that are seen as high risk or they have intel for?
In terms of training I would of thought the army is of a much higher standard.
Rules of engagement will obviously be different but as the army are incredibly well discipled I'm sure they can adapt.
Remember alot of police officers are ex military.
this. the army are being placed at areas where there is usually a constant police presence so that the police can be spread out around the streets..instead of army folk just walking up and down the street in/out asda carrying a gun.In terms of training I would of thought the army is of a much higher standard.
Rules of engagement will obviously be different but as the army are incredibly well discipled I'm sure they can adapt.
Remember alot of police officers are ex military.
My lad (19) is in the Army and was deployed yesterday to London. This is the first 'live' thing him and most of his battalion have done and they have been proper geared up for it. Obviously i dont know his ROE but I do know his location in London and it is more of a guard duty than patrolling.
As for training, the only thing he has done with regards to the public is riot / crowd control.
Not sure what im worried about most, him being in the Capital with an 'imminent threat' being talked about or a bunch of 18/19 year olds that are armed and having to deal with drunks / abuse etc whilst being on edge / nervous
Obviously we only know very little so im sure the people in charge know what they are doing.
As for training, the only thing he has done with regards to the public is riot / crowd control.
Not sure what im worried about most, him being in the Capital with an 'imminent threat' being talked about or a bunch of 18/19 year olds that are armed and having to deal with drunks / abuse etc whilst being on edge / nervous
Obviously we only know very little so im sure the people in charge know what they are doing.
Funnily enough I had this exact conversation with a copper from SO1 Specialist Protection about six months ago and having routinely armed soldiers on the streets. His response was that the police and the military are trained for very different reasons and that soldier skills are not transferable to the civilian world without retraining and even then they wouldn't normally be on their own. As someone who has undertaken some specialist military firearms training this squares with what I've been taught in that the training I received was all about unfettered violence whilst trying to get yourself away to a safe place and out of trouble. Easy to see how this won't transfer to the policing world. Some of it also capbadge specific, gunners won't normally have the same training as infantry bods whose mindset and training is one of aggressive firepower and less emphasis on the legal/law aspect compared to the police (not withstanding the Law of Armed Conflict and Rules of Engagement). Comparing the two is quite difficult and not really a fair comparison but the basic skillset of weapons handling will be similar.
Osinjak said:
Funnily enough I had this exact conversation with a copper from SO1 Specialist Protection about six months ago and having routinely armed soldiers on the streets. His response was that the police and the military are trained for very different reasons and that soldier skills are not transferable to the civilian world without retraining and even then they wouldn't normally be on their own. As someone who has undertaken some specialist military firearms training this squares with what I've been taught in that the training I received was all about unfettered violence whilst trying to get yourself away to a safe place and out of trouble. Easy to see how this won't transfer to the policing world. Some of it also capbadge specific, gunners won't normally have the same training as infantry bods whose mindset and training is one of aggressive firepower and less emphasis on the legal/law aspect compared to the police (not withstanding the Law of Armed Conflict and Rules of Engagement). Comparing the two is quite difficult and not really a fair comparison but the basic skillset of weapons handling will be similar.
Fair bit of cobblers in that to be fair. Inf training packages are the same across cap badges & have been for ages. The days of teeth arms/support arms are pretty much a thing of the past & have been since we toottled into AFG. Each cap badge goes through the same pre-deployment package generally 12 months prior with their particular skills/role training embedded within that. They would be & are expected to take on inf roles by rote as demands dictate. While they may not full warry shootie shootie hard case infantry troops they will be out on foot patrols if needed so the standard soldering skill set is there. That applies to gunners, scaleys, tankies, drivers etc. Different question if you're taking about the AGC or ACC. Seen the likes of RLC, RA on patrols many times. Lets not forget that the gunners lost the most of a single cap badge during Banner.Gong back to the army role with plod, the skills are entirely transferable to a police/peace keeping/ deterrent scenario. The 35yr plus deployment on Banner a case in point. The mindset is not on permanent brass every fooker up mode, its controlled aggression. Also why we've been pretty good on a fair number of peace keeping Ops.
If you get into a convo with a plod with a gun V a squaddie with a gun you're on a hiding to nothing as both give it the billy big boll0cks! ;-)
The ability to put rounds on target is pretty much the same standard, training varies obviously. The more recent creation of more specialist AT police firearms has removed a lot of the ROE restrictions in light of recent attacks.
Echo66 said:
Fair bit of cobblers in that to be fair. Inf training packages are the same across cap badges & have been for ages. The days of teeth arms/support arms are pretty much a thing of the past & have been since we toottled into AFG. Each cap badge goes through the same pre-deployment package generally 12 months prior with their particular skills/role training embedded within that. They would be & are expected to take on inf roles by rote as demands dictate. While they may not full warry shootie shootie hard case infantry troops they will be out on foot patrols if needed so the standard soldering skill set is there. That applies to gunners, scaleys, tankies, drivers etc. Different question if you're taking about the AGC or ACC. Seen the likes of RLC, RA on patrols many times. Lets not forget that the gunners lost the most of a single cap badge during Banner.
Not cobblers at all, in a peacetime role that's exactly how it is. The stark reality, ops aside, is that an infantry soldier will have more range time than an SPS clerk, or a loggie or whatever CCS monkey takes your pick. I agree, however, that on ops every soldier will be expected to do their bit but as you point out they will still not be quite as proficient as some of our more esoteric infantry brethren. Having witnessed a punch up between a heavy MG Royal and scaley who were pound for pound identical it quickly become clear who was more aggressive (it's a crap example but fun to watch as Royal attempted to wrap his oppo's scrotum around his head).There was some footage on the BBC of a group of soldiers walking along Downing Street and they certainly didn't look like battle hardened infantrymen. In he group of about 8 or so there can't have been a single one that looked older than 21 or so but in the grand scheme of things if they provide some sort of visual deterrent or alternatively some form of reassurance for the general public then so be it. People need to feel safe and if this is a way of doing it, despite the practical challenges, then so be it.
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