Chelmsford Army & Navy Bus Gateway Proposal
Discussion
For those of you who know Chelmsford, you will be aware of the nightmare that is the Army & Navy roundabout. The 20th century solution to traffic problems in Chelmsford was to build a 4 lane 'expressway' (Milton Keynes style) right through the middle of town. The main feeder for this, 5 roads bringing traffic from out of town into the town centre, is the Army & Navy roundabout. There is no inner ring road, and for cross town journeys it is pretty well unavoidable.
Nobody can deny that there is a serious problem here, and the local council estimates that the city's roads are running at 95% capacity. But one of the proposed solutions is to build a bus gateway into the roundabout from the direction of Great Baddow.
http://greatbaddow.org.uk/baddow-blog/will-baddow-...
This will deny access to all but buses 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Out of town traffic to the Army & Navy is already using the Baddow by-pass, so the motorists affected by this the most will be local Baddow residents using the old Baddow road. The council glibly suggest that these will have to use other routes, or one of three cycle ways that are being constructed. The route into town along Baddow Road will now be empty of cars to allow for 15 buses an hour (at peak times) to use it exclusively.
There are only two alternative routes. One of these is via a residential road through the middle of the Moulsham Lodge Estate (several schools on the way) heading out of town towards the Miami Roundabout (another bundle of fun) and via New London Road towards Parkway, a road that is already restricted by a bus only lane, which will be more severely enforced by cameras as part of the same programme of improvements.
The other route is to divert traffic through Baddow Village (heading out of town again) to intersect with the Baddow by-pass at the junction there, thus joining all the incoming traffic already using this route. On the way, this traffic will have to negotiate the notorious narrow stretch in Maldon Road, passable with care by two cars, but anything larger needing to take turns to get through. There is a narrow pavement, and the chance of getting struck by wing mirrors on vans and trucks is very real. This is the section.
A nice additional touch is that any traffic, including trucks, that inadvertently get as far as the bus gateway will be directed off through the Meadgate Estate back to Baddow Village, along roads that buses already struggle to get through.
Needless to say, Great Baddow residents (like myself) are up in arms, a petition has been raised, and there is a village hall meeting next week. What was the only logical route into the town centre has now become a trip out to the outskirts of Chelmsford, through unsuitable roads, and a journey back in with all the longer district traffic.
The council say the driver for this is air quality in Baddow Road, yet there are no exceptions for electric vehicles. I had a loan of a Toyota hybrid a few weeks ago while my own car was being repaired, and I can testify that in traffic along Baddow Road, the car was doing the whole journey on battery power only. And what are the only vehicles to be allowed through? Yes, our fleet of bone-shaker ageing diesel buses.
Do any Pistonheaders have experience of this sort of idiocy where they live, and is there any advice on best how to fight it?
Nobody can deny that there is a serious problem here, and the local council estimates that the city's roads are running at 95% capacity. But one of the proposed solutions is to build a bus gateway into the roundabout from the direction of Great Baddow.
http://greatbaddow.org.uk/baddow-blog/will-baddow-...
This will deny access to all but buses 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Out of town traffic to the Army & Navy is already using the Baddow by-pass, so the motorists affected by this the most will be local Baddow residents using the old Baddow road. The council glibly suggest that these will have to use other routes, or one of three cycle ways that are being constructed. The route into town along Baddow Road will now be empty of cars to allow for 15 buses an hour (at peak times) to use it exclusively.
There are only two alternative routes. One of these is via a residential road through the middle of the Moulsham Lodge Estate (several schools on the way) heading out of town towards the Miami Roundabout (another bundle of fun) and via New London Road towards Parkway, a road that is already restricted by a bus only lane, which will be more severely enforced by cameras as part of the same programme of improvements.
The other route is to divert traffic through Baddow Village (heading out of town again) to intersect with the Baddow by-pass at the junction there, thus joining all the incoming traffic already using this route. On the way, this traffic will have to negotiate the notorious narrow stretch in Maldon Road, passable with care by two cars, but anything larger needing to take turns to get through. There is a narrow pavement, and the chance of getting struck by wing mirrors on vans and trucks is very real. This is the section.
A nice additional touch is that any traffic, including trucks, that inadvertently get as far as the bus gateway will be directed off through the Meadgate Estate back to Baddow Village, along roads that buses already struggle to get through.
Needless to say, Great Baddow residents (like myself) are up in arms, a petition has been raised, and there is a village hall meeting next week. What was the only logical route into the town centre has now become a trip out to the outskirts of Chelmsford, through unsuitable roads, and a journey back in with all the longer district traffic.
The council say the driver for this is air quality in Baddow Road, yet there are no exceptions for electric vehicles. I had a loan of a Toyota hybrid a few weeks ago while my own car was being repaired, and I can testify that in traffic along Baddow Road, the car was doing the whole journey on battery power only. And what are the only vehicles to be allowed through? Yes, our fleet of bone-shaker ageing diesel buses.
Do any Pistonheaders have experience of this sort of idiocy where they live, and is there any advice on best how to fight it?
Just because you do not agree with it, does not make it idiocy.
I cycle down Baddow Rd every day. I welcome the gate.
There were a few gates installed in Colchester. You had the NIMBYs all up in arms shouting about delays, how it's unfair, how the Council haven't got a clue etc. Guess what - the traffic now is better, the traffic still flows, rat-running is down, and the people that live along the roads affected are happier. (I know because I have friends affected and they are loving the quietness, the increase in house price, parking is easier, cycling is easier, walking the kids to school is more pleasant etc). They don't care that they add a couple of minutes on to their journey every day, because the prize is far more peaceful living.
Or, should the Council just leave it, let the queues continue?
Or, should they ban everyone except locals? How far do you go?
I assume you have an alternative proposal that would be suitable for all? If you let me know what it is I'll suggest what reasons a NIMBY would have for poo-pooing it...
I'm all in favour of a rant, but make it reasonable at least
ETA that bloody awful local NIMBY blog is littered with spelling mistakes. It looks like someone has written it in a hurry and not checked it. And some of the comments are priceless. The things they are moaning about will be improved by the bus gate. Some of the suggestions are laughable. "Until the Council make the flyover 2-way..."
Yeah OK then, the cost just to move the utilities (nothing at all to do with the Council) would cost £10m+. That's before you even put a cone on the road. Do you think the rest of Essex would be happy paying that just to keep a few NIMBYs in Chelmsford happy? That sort of money could add a junction to the A12 or M11 and provide a far greater benefit to far more people.
Just a few musings to put things in perspective. NIMBYism is not helpful.
I cycle down Baddow Rd every day. I welcome the gate.
There were a few gates installed in Colchester. You had the NIMBYs all up in arms shouting about delays, how it's unfair, how the Council haven't got a clue etc. Guess what - the traffic now is better, the traffic still flows, rat-running is down, and the people that live along the roads affected are happier. (I know because I have friends affected and they are loving the quietness, the increase in house price, parking is easier, cycling is easier, walking the kids to school is more pleasant etc). They don't care that they add a couple of minutes on to their journey every day, because the prize is far more peaceful living.
Or, should the Council just leave it, let the queues continue?
Or, should they ban everyone except locals? How far do you go?
I assume you have an alternative proposal that would be suitable for all? If you let me know what it is I'll suggest what reasons a NIMBY would have for poo-pooing it...
I'm all in favour of a rant, but make it reasonable at least
ETA that bloody awful local NIMBY blog is littered with spelling mistakes. It looks like someone has written it in a hurry and not checked it. And some of the comments are priceless. The things they are moaning about will be improved by the bus gate. Some of the suggestions are laughable. "Until the Council make the flyover 2-way..."
Yeah OK then, the cost just to move the utilities (nothing at all to do with the Council) would cost £10m+. That's before you even put a cone on the road. Do you think the rest of Essex would be happy paying that just to keep a few NIMBYs in Chelmsford happy? That sort of money could add a junction to the A12 or M11 and provide a far greater benefit to far more people. Just a few musings to put things in perspective. NIMBYism is not helpful.
Edited by OpulentBob on Tuesday 25th July 13:16
Thanks for your reply OBob. I am glad you are young and fit enough to cycle. Unfortunately for a 68 year old like me, in poor health and hobbling about on a stick, walking and cycling are not options.
I believe there are 500 plus on the petition already, and the comments under the website I linked to are pretty unanimous, apart from the bus driver.
Actually, I do have an alternative. I don't see how this can be justified on a 24/7 basis. Why not rush hour only? Buses don't even run 24/7. Why not electric vehicles exempt? I would also like to see the studies that show that this scheme would not merely shift the congestion and the pollution elsewhere?
I believe there are 500 plus on the petition already, and the comments under the website I linked to are pretty unanimous, apart from the bus driver.
Actually, I do have an alternative. I don't see how this can be justified on a 24/7 basis. Why not rush hour only? Buses don't even run 24/7. Why not electric vehicles exempt? I would also like to see the studies that show that this scheme would not merely shift the congestion and the pollution elsewhere?
Roofless Toothless said:
Thanks for your reply OBob. I am glad you are young and fit enough to cycle. Unfortunately for a 68 year old like me, in poor health and hobbling about on a stick, walking and cycling are not options.
I believe there are 500 plus on the petition already, and the comments under the website I linked to are pretty unanimous, apart from the bus driver.
Actually, I do have an alternative. I don't see how this can be justified on a 24/7 basis. Why not rush hour only? Buses don't even run 24/7. Why not electric vehicles exempt? I would also like to see the studies that show that this scheme would not merely shift the congestion and the pollution elsewhere?
For starters I don't believe an exemption of electric vehicles that can written into a traffic order. The NIMBY problem is that for every "genuine" person that can not use alternatives (I'm guessing a bus it too much for you) there are 10 that can. You hear all the excuse under the sun "I have to take my great aunt's pet iguana to the vet for a check up every six months, I can't possibly take the bus or cycle"! I believe there are 500 plus on the petition already, and the comments under the website I linked to are pretty unanimous, apart from the bus driver.
Actually, I do have an alternative. I don't see how this can be justified on a 24/7 basis. Why not rush hour only? Buses don't even run 24/7. Why not electric vehicles exempt? I would also like to see the studies that show that this scheme would not merely shift the congestion and the pollution elsewhere?
ETA - we have a limited amount of space, until people accept that and start using alternatives we will grid lock. Comment's like it's not safe etc. are a chicken and egg problem. How can you make safe routes for cycling and quick bus routes while still allowing private car use. Someone needs to make the tough decisions.
It's probably one of the worst ideas I've seen as part of the proposed plans 
. I've signed the petition and will be at the consultation session in a couple of weeks...
The funny thing is, both of the suggested altervative routes have provisions for buses anyway!
The traffic is mainly an issue during peak hours during term time, dont think that's enough to justity this. As you say, its the locals that are affected more. Visitors to the GP will have to do a lap of south Chelmsford just to get back to the A & N a hundred metres away!
I can think of a couple of options which could offer an alternative -
1. A filter lane turning left into Van Diemans - the footpath and road coming off the roundabout are pretty wide so could accomodate 2 lanes possibly.
2. Make a bus only entrance to join the A114 from Meadgate which will join the existing bus lane. Buses travelling down Baddow Road would then turn right into Meadgate, through to the A114 and to the roundabout (freeing up the road for cars
. I've signed the petition and will be at the consultation session in a couple of weeks...The funny thing is, both of the suggested altervative routes have provisions for buses anyway!
The traffic is mainly an issue during peak hours during term time, dont think that's enough to justity this. As you say, its the locals that are affected more. Visitors to the GP will have to do a lap of south Chelmsford just to get back to the A & N a hundred metres away!
I can think of a couple of options which could offer an alternative -
1. A filter lane turning left into Van Diemans - the footpath and road coming off the roundabout are pretty wide so could accomodate 2 lanes possibly.
2. Make a bus only entrance to join the A114 from Meadgate which will join the existing bus lane. Buses travelling down Baddow Road would then turn right into Meadgate, through to the A114 and to the roundabout (freeing up the road for cars
Insane idea. All of the roads are already at 95% capacity so shutting one will do a lot of good.
Not sure the cyclist is moaning about, there are plenty of better roads to cycle towards the town centre. I too cycle to the town centre on a daily basis but wouldn't ever consider using Baddow road, a bus attempting an overtake of a cyclist would not be enjoyable.
Not sure the cyclist is moaning about, there are plenty of better roads to cycle towards the town centre. I too cycle to the town centre on a daily basis but wouldn't ever consider using Baddow road, a bus attempting an overtake of a cyclist would not be enjoyable.
I read something on FB about this proposal ....... (which then took me to another page somewhere?)
Now whilst I might live on the other side of Chelmsford there are times I need to get to/from Baddow and whilst reading the proposal I thought 'how the hell can anybody expect this to work'?
As the OP points out most of the traffic is local traffic, filtering on/off Baddow Road, which is admittedly a congested main road. But to suggest that all the 'non-bus' traffic should then divert into the surrounding residential streets (where most of the buses are collecting their passengers from) will surely only shift the problem from the main road to the residential streets.
There was also an argument by bus drivers saying how they get held up in the traffic, not only making them late but also causing them to pollute the atmosphere, and that apparently 7 buses an hour run in each way at peak times!
Why do 7 buses need to run each way along Baddow Road?
Without knowing the routes of the buses, I would suggest that the buses are the problem!
Surely you only need 1 bus to service Baddow road and onto Great Baddow., and 1 to service Medgate. Put each them on a one way loop (out of town, up Baddow Rd) and then they can return to town via the A1114 bus lane (that only seems to be used by the park & ride service!). Similarly I'm sure other buses heading to/from Moulsham lodge could be routed differently thus avoiding Baddow Road.
Ok this may mean that some bus passengers may for some of their journey be traveling out of town on an increased length of journey until the bus starts its return journey along the A1114 but I'm sure it would ease the congestion.
The proposal seems extremely blinkered in its approach - only seeming to be of benefit to existing bus services and with no consideration for the extra congestion/danger it would cause in residential areas.
Now whilst I might live on the other side of Chelmsford there are times I need to get to/from Baddow and whilst reading the proposal I thought 'how the hell can anybody expect this to work'?
As the OP points out most of the traffic is local traffic, filtering on/off Baddow Road, which is admittedly a congested main road. But to suggest that all the 'non-bus' traffic should then divert into the surrounding residential streets (where most of the buses are collecting their passengers from) will surely only shift the problem from the main road to the residential streets.
There was also an argument by bus drivers saying how they get held up in the traffic, not only making them late but also causing them to pollute the atmosphere, and that apparently 7 buses an hour run in each way at peak times!
Why do 7 buses need to run each way along Baddow Road?
Without knowing the routes of the buses, I would suggest that the buses are the problem!
Surely you only need 1 bus to service Baddow road and onto Great Baddow., and 1 to service Medgate. Put each them on a one way loop (out of town, up Baddow Rd) and then they can return to town via the A1114 bus lane (that only seems to be used by the park & ride service!). Similarly I'm sure other buses heading to/from Moulsham lodge could be routed differently thus avoiding Baddow Road.
Ok this may mean that some bus passengers may for some of their journey be traveling out of town on an increased length of journey until the bus starts its return journey along the A1114 but I'm sure it would ease the congestion.
The proposal seems extremely blinkered in its approach - only seeming to be of benefit to existing bus services and with no consideration for the extra congestion/danger it would cause in residential areas.
The biggest problem in that section is ignorant parking, yes, they have to pavement park in some places, but not very well.
The buses are all clapped out heaps, but no mention of emission improvements ?
As long as i can get to the Yasmin car park for the monthly ruby, i'll live with it.
The buses are all clapped out heaps, but no mention of emission improvements ?
As long as i can get to the Yasmin car park for the monthly ruby, i'll live with it.
Squiggs said:
I read something on FB about this proposal ....... (which then took me to another page somewhere?)
Now whilst I might live on the other side of Chelmsford there are times I need to get to/from Baddow and whilst reading the proposal I thought 'how the hell can anybody expect this to work'?
As the OP points out most of the traffic is local traffic, filtering on/off Baddow Road, which is admittedly a congested main road. But to suggest that all the 'non-bus' traffic should then divert into the surrounding residential streets (where most of the buses are collecting their passengers from) will surely only shift the problem from the main road to the residential streets.
There was also an argument by bus drivers saying how they get held up in the traffic, not only making them late but also causing them to pollute the atmosphere, and that apparently 7 buses an hour run in each way at peak times!
Why do 7 buses need to run each way along Baddow Road?
Without knowing the routes of the buses, I would suggest that the buses are the problem!
Surely you only need 1 bus to service Baddow road and onto Great Baddow., and 1 to service Medgate. Put each them on a one way loop (out of town, up Baddow Rd) and then they can return to town via the A1114 bus lane (that only seems to be used by the park & ride service!). Similarly I'm sure other buses heading to/from Moulsham lodge could be routed differently thus avoiding Baddow Road.
Ok this may mean that some bus passengers may for some of their journey be traveling out of town on an increased length of journey until the bus starts its return journey along the A1114 but I'm sure it would ease the congestion.
The proposal seems extremely blinkered in its approach - only seeming to be of benefit to existing bus services and with no consideration for the extra congestion/danger it would cause in residential areas.
I don't know the area enough but to claim that a bus that can carry 50 people in the same space as 4 cars (most likely single) is the problem sounds daft. Would an improved bus service not remove some of the local traffic?Now whilst I might live on the other side of Chelmsford there are times I need to get to/from Baddow and whilst reading the proposal I thought 'how the hell can anybody expect this to work'?
As the OP points out most of the traffic is local traffic, filtering on/off Baddow Road, which is admittedly a congested main road. But to suggest that all the 'non-bus' traffic should then divert into the surrounding residential streets (where most of the buses are collecting their passengers from) will surely only shift the problem from the main road to the residential streets.
There was also an argument by bus drivers saying how they get held up in the traffic, not only making them late but also causing them to pollute the atmosphere, and that apparently 7 buses an hour run in each way at peak times!
Why do 7 buses need to run each way along Baddow Road?
Without knowing the routes of the buses, I would suggest that the buses are the problem!
Surely you only need 1 bus to service Baddow road and onto Great Baddow., and 1 to service Medgate. Put each them on a one way loop (out of town, up Baddow Rd) and then they can return to town via the A1114 bus lane (that only seems to be used by the park & ride service!). Similarly I'm sure other buses heading to/from Moulsham lodge could be routed differently thus avoiding Baddow Road.
Ok this may mean that some bus passengers may for some of their journey be traveling out of town on an increased length of journey until the bus starts its return journey along the A1114 but I'm sure it would ease the congestion.
The proposal seems extremely blinkered in its approach - only seeming to be of benefit to existing bus services and with no consideration for the extra congestion/danger it would cause in residential areas.
One of the comments made me laugh, a resident would rather have stationary traffic outside her house than moving buses, seems counter intuitive.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff