Have you paid or not?

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Discussion

PAULJ5555

Original Poster:

3,554 posts

175 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
In the supermarket on the weekend and there is a long line of people waiting to be served, this man just walks past everyone and holds up a single item and says to the checkout girl this is £1.50, here is a £2 coin keep the change and he walks out of the shop.

Can you do that, have you paid?

Can you do this with booze? they wont be able to check your age.



PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
Impatient arse.

No. The sale and purchase agreement has not been completed by throwing money at the vendor.

MorganP104

2,605 posts

129 months

Monday 21st August 2017
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PurpleMoonlight said:
Impatient arse.

No. The sale and purchase agreement has not been completed by throwing money at the vendor.
Not only this, but the item had not been barcode scanned at the till. The hapless checkout girl will end up with a till that's £2 over, come cashing-up time.

LocoCoco

1,428 posts

175 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
Wikipedia says:

"Legal definitions. Shoplifting is considered a form of theft and is subject to prosecution. In the United Kingdom, theft is defined as "dishonestly appropriate[ing] property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it; and “thief” and “steal” shall be construed accordingly."

I'm not sure but I don't think they would get prosecuted in OP's scenario, more likely banned from the store.

KevinCamaroSS

11,553 posts

279 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
PurpleMoonlight said:
Impatient arse.

No. The sale and purchase agreement has not been completed by throwing money at the vendor.
It would be if she accepted the money. The IA is offering, she would have to accept the offer to form the contract. If she said she would have to scan the item before accepting the money then no contract is formed.

PAULJ5555

Original Poster:

3,554 posts

175 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
KevinCamaroSS said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
Impatient arse.

No. The sale and purchase agreement has not been completed by throwing money at the vendor.
It would be if she accepted the money. The IA is offering, she would have to accept the offer to form the contract. If she said she would have to scan the item before accepting the money then no contract is formed.
Is the contract a civil one?

Also the man could argue the girl on the check out said/mumbled ok completing the contract,
MAN - "I'm 100% sure officer she said ok, I left the cash so I was not permanently depriving the shop of anything, infact I paid more that I should have."

SantaBarbara

3,244 posts

107 months

Monday 21st August 2017
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Someone should have stopped him

It may have been a bottle of whisky

PurpleMoonlight

22,362 posts

156 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
PAULJ5555 said:
Is the contract a civil one?

Also the man could argue the girl on the check out said/mumbled ok completing the contract,
MAN - "I'm 100% sure officer she said ok, I left the cash so I was not permanently depriving the shop of anything, infact I paid more that I should have."
Yes it's a civil contract.

I doubt his argument would hold water, supermarkets scan everything and the consideration needs to be accepted by the seller and not just left by the purchaser.

CYMR0

3,940 posts

199 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
All contracts are civil.

Your civil breach of contract may also be a crime (or not).

Here: contract

- Offer - there was an offer to pay £2
- Acceptance - questionable if the retailer accepted it knowingly (i.e., did they know that it was £1.50 of goods and not £5?) and with apparnet authority (the checkout staff only hvae authority to accept an offer in relation to scanned merchandise).
- Consideration - yes, if title in the goods passes.
- Intention to enter into legal relations - yes, the shop isn't putting goods on display out of neighibourly concern.

So on balance, depending on the exact conduct of the checkout staff, there's no contract for sale and therefore title didn't pass - maybe once the £2 coin is put into the till but probably not before then.

In criminal law, for theft:

s.1 Theft Act 1968 says that a person is guilty of theft who dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

So:

- approrpirates - he assumes the rights of an owner by taking it out of the shop, clearly;
- property - clearly the goods are property and can be owned - it's not like he's breathing someone else's air;
- belonging to another - if title does not pass under the civil contract, the goods still belong to the retailer;
- intention to permanently deprive - he's clearly not taking it for a walk and bringing it back.

So all the elements of theft are made out, except possibly dishonesty. The question then is whether, in all the circumstances, the man's actions could be considered dishonest - and that is a question for a jury.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
PAULJ5555 said:
In the supermarket on the weekend and there is a long line of people waiting to be served, this man just walks past everyone and holds up a single item and says to the checkout girl this is £1.50, here is a £2 coin keep the change and he walks out of the shop.
Impatient and a bit rude, but I quite like his style.

Ransoman

884 posts

89 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
It depends on the tills I suppose. A long time ago I worked in a WH smiths and I would regularly get customers leaving coins on the desk and holding up the paper or thing they bought and walking out. As we didn't have barcode scanners we would know all the prices anyway and I could run it through the till in the seconds between customers. (50 news, subtotal, 50 cash - drawer pops open, coin goes in). Not possible with todays smart tills though.

Funkycoldribena

7,379 posts

153 months

Monday 21st August 2017
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If they employed more checkout operators (can't say girls nowadays) they wouldn't get this.

tigger1

8,402 posts

220 months

Monday 21st August 2017
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Ransoman said:
It depends on the tills I suppose. A long time ago I worked in a WH smiths and I would regularly get customers leaving coins on the desk and holding up the paper or thing they bought and walking out. As we didn't have barcode scanners we would know all the prices anyway and I could run it through the till in the seconds between customers. (50 news, subtotal, 50 cash - drawer pops open, coin goes in). Not possible with todays smart tills though.
For years WHSmiths had honesty boxes for buying newspapers. Lob the money in as you walked out, all good. They stopped doing them a couple of years back, probably because folk aren't honest.

justinio

1,151 posts

87 months

Monday 21st August 2017
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Always used to do that when I used to read newspapers. Just drop 20p on the counter in the local newsagents. I thought that was the done thing? Sounds like I'm a criminal, ho hum.

What really boils my piss is the mini supermarket/petrol stations that seem to be spreading. If I could get to the front of the queue of mums doing their weekly shop in the petrol station to drop my £20 on the counter, I would.

PAULJ5555

Original Poster:

3,554 posts

175 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
justinio said:
Always used to do that when I used to read newspapers. Just drop 20p on the counter in the local newsagents. I thought that was the done thing? Sounds like I'm a criminal, ho hum.

What really boils my piss is the mini supermarket/petrol stations that seem to be spreading. If I could get to the front of the queue of mums doing their weekly shop in the petrol station to drop my £20 on the counter, I would.
Thinking about it I have done the same £20 in petrol in the car, I'm in a rush so straight up to the counter (no queue) and place £20 on it, said thanks I don't need a receipt smiled and walk off not really giving the server time to say anything.

Edited by PAULJ5555 on Monday 21st August 13:06

Rude-boy

22,227 posts

232 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
justinio said:
What really boils my piss is the mini supermarket/petrol stations that seem to be spreading. If I could get to the front of the queue of mums doing their weekly shop in the petrol station to drop my £20 on the counter, I would.
Right there with you.

no problem at all with those getting a loaf of bread/micro meal/etc with their fuel but there are some who seem to take getting a few things from the petrol station into an art form of delay and frustration.

Usually you can spot them as they are the middle aged couple in the queue with a few items in their hands. He will go to the first free desk and pay for petrol, whilst she waits for the second desk to become free for the shopping. she will then start to unload the 8 items they have collected and remember that she has forgotten the Pinot. She will rush off to get the Pinot just as hubby decides that he would like a coffee and so waits for her to return before asking her if she would like one. 30 second conversation on if she should have tea, coffee or a hot chocolate. Coffee it is.

so cashier 1 starts to make the drinks as by now the cafe boy has gone for their break.

As cashier two just finishes with the lady and is handing back her cards (queue by now is almost at the door) she decides that she would like a cake. But which one? Leaving her stuff on the till she then has a good look before deciding that not only would she like a cake but that she should see if her husband (who has just gone out to the car) wants one.

This was last Sunday but i have seen this replayed again and again over the years. FFS how hard is it? About the worst i will do is decide i want a bacon roll whilst in the queue but if I reach the till and realise that i also want a drink then i will only run and grab if there is no one behind me or else it is pay, got to fridge, rejoin queue to pay for drink - my fault, why should i delay everyone else?

One of my quotes of the month is "Please stop making your failures my problems."

Joeguard1990

1,181 posts

125 months

Monday 21st August 2017
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What a t*t.

He could have gone to a self-service checkout and paid for it in 30 seconds.

Providing there isn't an unexpected item in the bagging area....

hman

7,487 posts

193 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
TwigtheWonderkid said:
PAULJ5555 said:
In the supermarket on the weekend and there is a long line of people waiting to be served, this man just walks past everyone and holds up a single item and says to the checkout girl this is £1.50, here is a £2 coin keep the change and he walks out of the shop.
Impatient and a bit rude, but I quite like his style.
The style of an impatient entitled prick who deems himself above the law instead of waiting his turn to be served ?

TwigtheWonderkid

43,248 posts

149 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
hman said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
PAULJ5555 said:
In the supermarket on the weekend and there is a long line of people waiting to be served, this man just walks past everyone and holds up a single item and says to the checkout girl this is £1.50, here is a £2 coin keep the change and he walks out of the shop.
Impatient and a bit rude, but I quite like his style.
The style of an impatient entitled prick who deems himself above the law instead of waiting his turn to be served ?
Perhaps, but assuming the check out girl saw what he was buying, she can scan one thru in a quieter period and she's got a 50p tip for her trouble, which is more that she'll get off a patient polite bloke like you.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
CYMR0 said:
except possibly dishonesty.
DO you think parliament would have meant to criminalise behaviour where D not only telegraphs his intention to pay, but also leaves more money than necessary to pay for the goods? Can you imagine a jury that could come to the conclusion the behaviour in this thread were 'dishonest'?

Secondly, what civil wrong would the supermarket look to right in the courts (in an imaginary world where it came to that)? If there is no contract, what is any relief to be against? Nuisance?