Plead guilty by post or go to court?

[JMW45]

Hi,

Having no personal experience in this area I would appreciate some help for my son.

He has been caught via a fixed camera doing 52 in a 30mph limit. Having had his license for just under 2 years at the date of the offence I believe that he is likely to get 6 points which is an automatic withdrawal of his license and he has to apply again for both theory & practical.

Is this correct? (is there anything else we should know or consider?)

Assuming the situation is as described above, I have also heard that the judge can show leniency with perhaps 5 points and a fine which will at least allow him to keep his licence.

In this case, do you suggest a letter of mitigation and no court appearance or take the court appearance option?

Thanks in advance.

[Hammy98]

I was done for 55 in a 30 in February of last year, my first year driving.

Was caught by an officer using a speed gun and received a court summons for being more than 50% over the limit. Went straight to a motoring lawyer with the court summons, he took down all of my details including my background and what I do for work.

He appeared in court on my behalf and I was given 3 points and a £180 fine. Lawyer fees were £200.

Definitely an expensive lesson, as insurance co's have been loading up my premiums since - still manageable though.

I assume the NIP has the camera details and asks you to nominate the driver? I'm not 100% sure but I think they will want to summon him once he is identified as the driver due to his age, someone more knowledgeable than myself will probably be along shortly to confirm or disagree.

[JMW45]

Thanks for replying Hammy98

I believe the rules changed in April this year which means the offence is usually treated as worthy of 6 points which now means a straight withdrawal of licence if you have held it for less than 2 years.

What we are hoping for is some leniency (such as 5 points and a fine) to avoid withdrawal and retaking the test!

Out of interest, which firm did you use to represent you?

[Hammy98]

JMW45 said:

Thanks for replying Hammy98

I believe the rules changed in April this year which means the offence is usually treated as worthy of 6 points which now means a straight withdrawal of licence if you have held it for less than 2 years.

What we are hoping for is some leniency (such as 5 points and a fine) to avoid withdrawal and retaking the test!

Out of interest, which firm did you use to represent you?

Ahh understandable, I wasn't aware of that.

At the time, I did a bit of research on the guidelines - expecting 6 points. My lawyer backed this up claiming that if I plead guilty by post I would more than likely end up with the 6 points. Obviously I wasn't present when he represented me, however he was confident enough that the number of points would be reduced that he told me to drive to work on the day of the hearing.

McCusker McElroy and Co represented me, think they are a local outfit though, based near Glasgow.

[HantsRat]

Hammy98 said:

I was done for 55 in a 30 in February of last year, my first year driving.

Was caught by an officer using a speed gun and received a court summons for being more than 50% over the limit. Went straight to a motoring lawyer with the court summons, he took down all of my details including my background and what I do for work.

He appeared in court on my behalf and I was given 3 points and a £180 fine. Lawyer fees were £200.

Definitely an expensive lesson, as insurance co's have been loading up my premiums since - still manageable though.

I assume the NIP has the camera details and asks you to nominate the driver? I'm not 100% sure but I think they will want to summon him once he is identified as the driver due to his age, someone more knowledgeable than myself will probably be along shortly to confirm or disagree.

You could have easily done that yourself and saves £200.

[Pica-Pica]

'I was done for 55 in a 30'

Not your fault then, because it was DONE to you. Put that in the letter.

[Hammy98]

HantsRat said:

You could have easily done that yourself and saves £200.

To be honest I'd rather the peace of mind of someone who knows what they're doing, never seen a courtroom never mind represented myself.

[Dizeee]

Hammy98 said:

My lawyer backed this up claiming that if I plead guilty by post I would more than likely end up with the 6 points.

I completely disagree with this and all " your going to get 6 points" posts.

I have literally NEVER seen anyone get over 3 points when issued a fine and points at Mags Court, and I have seen a lot of speeding cases of varying severity over the years.

I myself when I was 19 received an FPN and then 3 points for doing 51 in a 30. I was then the following week given 4 points after a court summons for doing 47 in the same 30, two days later. That goes to show the mish mash and inconsistency of our justice system. As it happened that took me to 7 points, which triggered my licence revokation under the new drivers act, which had been passed that month and nobody new about (2001).

I have watched countless court prosecutions over my career some present some not, some with solicitors and some not, and 95% of them are given the statuatory 3 points and fine, stamp the book and move on, 3 points and fine, stamp book, move on, like a sausage factory.

Your son would have to be doing something truly exceptional to get anything more than 4 points in my opinion.

[JMW45]

Dizeee said:

I completely disagree with this and all " your going to get 6 points" posts.

I have literally NEVER seen anyone get over 3 points when issued a fine and points at Mags Court, and I have seen a lot of speeding cases of varying severity over the years.

I myself when I was 19 received an FPN and then 3 points for doing 51 in a 30. I was then the following week given 4 points after a court summons for doing 47 in the same 30, two days later. That goes to show the mish mash and inconsistency of our justice system. As it happened that took me to 7 points, which triggered my licence revokation under the new drivers act, which had been passed that month and nobody new about (2001).

I have watched countless court prosecutions over my career some present some not, some with solicitors and some not, and 95% of them are given the statuatory 3 points and fine, stamp the book and move on, 3 points and fine, stamp book, move on, like a sausage factory.

Your son would have to be doing something truly exceptional to get anything more than 4 points in my opinion.

Thanks for all the comments.

My understanding (perhaps incorrectly) is that the new rules which came into effect from April 2017 is that the statutory penalty for an offence of the severity(!) is 6 points and that for new drivers (under two years) this is now an automatic withdrawal of licence and the need to completely reapply. A magistrate can only deviate from the statutory penalty in exceptional circumstances (which - to be honest - my son does not have).

As it only changed this year I hope that I have misunderstood this and I'd welcome comment.......

Thank!

[Gavia]

The link below contains all you need to know and is explained perfectly. If you what representation then you could do little npbetter than contacting the author of this

It really should be a sticky, to save the need for these threads and the bad advice they often include.

http://www.counsel.direct/news/2015/3/25/speeding-...

Based on the above, he’s going to court, he’s facing a Band C fine and is facing 6 points, as the Magistrates are supposed to enforce this above a short ban. His full licence will be revoked and he goes back to reapplying for a new provisional, which can be done immediately and then has to pass every element of his driving test again.

[Dizeee]

The gudelines and parameters may have changed on paper but I have yet to see much evidence of it being applied in the court room as it is on paper. The link says itself "if the NPCC guidelines are followed". Again, I don't see this happening often because service areas wish to send as many people on courses as possible to clear up overcrowded court rooms time as well as raise a bit of extra cash for the xmas do.

[catso]

Dizeee said:

I have literally NEVER seen anyone get over 3 points when issued a fine and points at Mags Court, and I have seen a lot of speeding cases of varying severity over the years.

I got 6 points and a fine at a Mags court, also employed a Solicitor which cost me over a grand but, as mentioned above I'd never even seen the inside of a court so had no idea what to say or do, as such I chose to appoint a professional to represent me.

Was it worth it? well maybe, I was advised that I'd probably be facing a ban so if having representation reduced it to 6 points then it was worth it IMO.

As for the OP's question, I would think attending court might help improve matters by showing that the defendant is sorry etc. rather than just couldn't be arsed, so sent in a form?

However, I have no legal knowledge and with my only court appearance I was not given the option of not attending.

[JMW45]

Thanks Gavia - this does confirm my understanding. Shame though as I was hoping I was wrong

Thanks also Dizeee - I hope the reality is more as you describe (keeping fingers crossed)

[Butter Face]

I would seek legal assistance with writing a decent mitigating statement. I am currently going through a similar situation and have enlisted AGTLaw who posts on here who has been helping me.

I will be pleading guilty via post, but will do so once he has looked over all the evidence and written my statement.

I would suggest that you take the time to do this, also don't be scared by the 'plead guilty early and you may be eligible for a discount' you can plead guilty right the way up to the day of the case and still be eligible......

[SS2.]

Dizeee said:

I completely disagree with this and all " your going to get 6 points" posts.

I have literally NEVER seen anyone get over 3 points when issued a fine and points at Mags Court, and I have seen a lot of speeding cases of varying severity over the years.

I don't share that view - on a daily basis, there are plenty of people being awarded 4 or more penalty points by the courts.

For clarity, the Magistrates' Sentencing Guidelines suggest 6 points OR a disqualification of 7-56 days upon conviction for 52mph in a 30mph limit.

To the OP - if the court is considering imposing an outright ban, it is probable they would expect your son to attend for sentencing.

[JMW45]

SS2. said:

I don't share that view - on a daily basis, there are plenty of people being awarded 4 or more penalty points by the courts.

For clarity, the Magistrates' Sentencing Guidelines suggest 6 points OR a disqualification of 7-56 days upon conviction for 52mph in a 30mph limit.

To the OP - if the court is considering imposing an outright ban, it is probable they would expect your son to attend for sentencing.

In this case because my son has been driving for less than 2 years (just) 6 points is an automatic withdrawal of the licence under the new rules. His notice/plea options give him the choice to reply by post or go to court.

[agtlaw]

JMW45 said:

In this case because my son has been driving for less than 2 years (just) 6 points is an automatic withdrawal of the licence under the new rules. His notice/plea options give him the choice to reply by post or go to court.

You appear to be confused about 'the new rules.' If you mean the revised Sentencing Council Guideline effective from 24 April 2017 then that does not materially affect your case. The fine may be a bit higher than before, but that's it.

Whilst it would usually be advisable to deal with the case online/by post, you should not attempt to deal with your case using the Single Justice Procedure. Elect to have a court hearing. Aim your submissions at getting 5 or fewer points (optimistic) or a short ban (more likely).

[TooMany2cvs]

JMW45 said:

In this case because my son has been driving for less than 2 years (just) 6 points is an automatic withdrawal of the licence under the new rules.

I think that's where your confusion set in. The 6pt-in-two-years revocation has been in place since the Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995 came into force on 1st June 1997. Anybody whose first test pass was on or after that date could be revoked.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1995/13/conten...

As has been said, the change in spring this year was only to increase fines for serious speeding from Band B to Band C. When your lad gets prosecuted, he'll get whatever's appropriate for 55 in a 30, and if that takes him to 6pts, then he's revoked. The revocation is nothing to do with the court.

[JMW45]

I'm always happy to admit to being wrong as I thought the 'new rules' particularly affected new drivers (as well as generally increasing the fines for all).

My son has received a Single Justice Procedure Notice and has now decided to attend court in the hope that he will not have his licence withdrawn. He is preparing his plea of mitigation (based on fully accepting his responsibility, being very sorry and having paid for and attended a defensive driving course).

In reality we expect the worse and he has the licence withdrawn and he will have to re-take.

We do, however, live in hope!

[agtlaw]

JMW45 said:

I'm always happy to admit to being wrong as I thought the 'new rules' particularly affected new drivers (as well as generally increasing the fines for all).

My son has received a Single Justice Procedure Notice and has now decided to attend court in the hope that he will not have his licence withdrawn. He is preparing his plea of mitigation (based on fully accepting his responsibility, being very sorry and having paid for and attended a defensive driving course).

In reality we expect the worse and he has the licence withdrawn and he will have to re-take.

We do, however, live in hope!

You thought wrong.

Good luck.

ETA: You're probably thinking about mobile phones. Now 6 points (was 3). A conviction for that offence has a greater impact on 'new drivers.'

Edited by agtlaw on Tuesday 10th October 12:50