BMW -- Keyless -- Gone in 60 Seconds...
Discussion
The keyless system on my Renault is similar to what's been mentioned above. It has a larger range to unlock the car, I need to be within a few feet of it. To start the car though, the key needs to be inside the car, otherwise it doesn't see it. I've leant in to start it, and if the key is in my back pocket it won't start, but with the keys in the front pocket it'll start as it's inside the car. It's quite a good system.
twister said:
IME (with the system Jaguar fit to the XF) the keyless entry side of things isn't any longer ranged than the keyless start side of things - both require the fob to be within a couple of feet of the respective antenna, and that's really how it ought to be.
It's entirely possible, indeed it must be the case, that the system the thieves are using is capable of receiving lower level signals (so further away from the key) and amplifying them to a greater extent that the key would normally output.I guess what seems to be an issue with keyless systems is the immobiliser chip built into normal keys can't play a part - I don't know how that's done with keyless. That's a bit of a fail-safe normally as the car won't start unless the key is very close to the ignition switch.
Sheepshanks said:
It's entirely possible, indeed it must be the case, that the system the thieves are using is capable of receiving lower level signals (so further away from the key) and amplifying them to a greater extent that the key would normally output.
I guess what seems to be an issue with keyless systems is the immobiliser chip built into normal keys can't play a part - I don't know how that's done with keyless. That's a bit of a fail-safe normally as the car won't start unless the key is very close to the ignition switch.
Clearly the stuff they're using enables the effective range of the keyless system to be extended, my comment was more about the idea that the entry side of it would be designed with a longer effective range than the ignition side of it, as one explanation as to how they managed to unlock the car without needing to get their antenna close to the house.I guess what seems to be an issue with keyless systems is the immobiliser chip built into normal keys can't play a part - I don't know how that's done with keyless. That's a bit of a fail-safe normally as the car won't start unless the key is very close to the ignition switch.
As far as the immobiliser goes, I suspect the keyless side of that is just using the radio within the keyfob to actively transmit the signal to the ignition system, rather than the more traditional passive means of reading the immobiliser via the pickup coil next to the ignition barrel.
Again, looking at how it's done on the XF, if the fob battery is low/dead then keyless start won't work unless you place the fob into the slot provided for it next to your right knee (on a RHD car at least), so in this scenario it works the same as a traditional immobiliser.
Zulu 10 said:
twister said:
I guess car manufacturers might have to start adding round trip timing to their keyless entry/ignition systems to only accept signals from a keyfob genuinely within a few inches of the car, rather than just relying on the assumed maximum range of the wireless modules to provide the proximity-based side of keyless security.
That's a good idea, but the speed of light is roughly 300 metres per microsecond, so 150 metres per microsecond for the round trip.I suspect that the cost of the timing modules and high speed processing to be able to achieve range resolutions of the order of tens of nanoseconds would be prohibitive.
When I say cost prohibitive I of course am talking about the manufacturers' costs, not the cost to the poor victim and their insurer.
Sister in law had her car turned over but not taken.
She has a Audi Q3 but crucially doesnt have keyless system. Good old traditional key. She believes that she 100% locked the car but someone overnight has managed to clone the code and get in but then unsure as how this would work given that the key needs to be physically pressed to activate the locks etc.
Do they just use the same kit for both and is a faraday pouch bag the only way of preventing them accessing the key security features.
Manufacturers should be doign more to prevent this but it doesnt seem that they actually acknowledge the problem.
She has a Audi Q3 but crucially doesnt have keyless system. Good old traditional key. She believes that she 100% locked the car but someone overnight has managed to clone the code and get in but then unsure as how this would work given that the key needs to be physically pressed to activate the locks etc.
Do they just use the same kit for both and is a faraday pouch bag the only way of preventing them accessing the key security features.
Manufacturers should be doign more to prevent this but it doesnt seem that they actually acknowledge the problem.
lee_fr200 said:
No the splined key you put in and turn, if they got through my patio doors the dining room door doesn't have a keyhole so they would be having to mess about , same if they came through the kitchen, if they actually got through them into my lounge the door to upstairs also has a lock! Very time consuming if you ask me,
Yes it might be extreme but I have 2 very young children who I wouldn't want endangering and my wife is a nervous wreck as quite a few cars round here have been stolen (not on my estate but the next one)
Just for reference I don't live in a bad area and it's a new build estate but I take security seriously! I've just had brick pillars built so I can have a electric gate and I'm buying a fence tomorrow morning to kind of hide my car a little too! I even block my drive with my van, it's all just to make life hard!
My grandfather lived like this. It's good from a security perspective but I fear you're fYes it might be extreme but I have 2 very young children who I wouldn't want endangering and my wife is a nervous wreck as quite a few cars round here have been stolen (not on my estate but the next one)
Just for reference I don't live in a bad area and it's a new build estate but I take security seriously! I've just had brick pillars built so I can have a electric gate and I'm buying a fence tomorrow morning to kind of hide my car a little too! I even block my drive with my van, it's all just to make life hard!
ked if your house goes up in flames in the night. Yipper said:
The trick -- to stop home invasion -- is to lock all internal doors and get good locks fitted.
If a thief(s) has to break through 3 or 4 heavily fortified doors and alarms and cameras and bright lights to get to you and your keys, they will almost always give up, and / or give you plenty of time to dial 999.
One-door security is never enough. Especially if you live in car-crime hotspots up north.
It's not exactly progress though is it. If a thief(s) has to break through 3 or 4 heavily fortified doors and alarms and cameras and bright lights to get to you and your keys, they will almost always give up, and / or give you plenty of time to dial 999.
One-door security is never enough. Especially if you live in car-crime hotspots up north.
If I get a modern car with keyless, I don't need to stick the key in the ignition. Great, I suppose. Instead I have to fortify the inside of my house, and lock a series of heavy doors before I go to bed. I also have to put the keyless thing in a special foil bag to stop it transmitting.
On balance, I'll just stick with the chore of having to stick the key in the ignition.
tallpaul26 said:
Is it also possible to steal a car with keyless start using this method?
I appreciate the thief would still need to gain access to the car by other means.
In theory, yes, even just keyless start as opposed to keyless entry is vulnerable to the same method of attack.I appreciate the thief would still need to gain access to the car by other means.
The first problem is clearly getting access though as you mentioned.
To be honest the easiest way to avoid this attack vector is to have the keys in the fridge, RF bag or a foil lined tin.
In one sense you have to blame the manufacturers, but there is a deeper level of "fault" with these systems which has little really to do with the vehicle manufacturer, but the multiple Tiers of automotive suppliers to develop systems that are not vulnerable to such attack methods (granted the manufacturer has the overall requirements to meet though)
rxe said:
It's not exactly progress though is it.
If I get a modern car with keyless, I don't need to stick the key in the ignition. Great, I suppose. Instead I have to fortify the inside of my house, and lock a series of heavy doors before I go to bed. I also have to put the keyless thing in a special foil bag to stop it transmitting.
On balance, I'll just stick with the chore of having to stick the key in the ignition.
It does seem an almighty faff just to enjoy the benefit of not having to take a key out of your pocketIf I get a modern car with keyless, I don't need to stick the key in the ignition. Great, I suppose. Instead I have to fortify the inside of my house, and lock a series of heavy doors before I go to bed. I also have to put the keyless thing in a special foil bag to stop it transmitting.
On balance, I'll just stick with the chore of having to stick the key in the ignition.
f1ten said:
It's concerning alright this crime. I'm guessing they can still clone my non keyless entry BMW by capturing the signal it sends out to unlock and then all you need is to press engine start
I'm assuming it works with keyless because it's continually transmitting.Non-keyless won't continually transmit, only on keypress and the code sequence should be cryptographically secure so you can't just capture one and send the next. So I'd assume they can't get access without a flaw in the implementation.
768 said:
I'm assuming it works with keyless because it's continually transmitting.
Non-keyless won't continually transmit, only on keypress and the code sequence should be cryptographically secure so you can't just capture one and send the next. So I'd assume they can't get access without a flaw in the implementation.
Or it happens to someone without keyless and they try and blame the flaw when in actual fact they may have just forgotten to lock itNon-keyless won't continually transmit, only on keypress and the code sequence should be cryptographically secure so you can't just capture one and send the next. So I'd assume they can't get access without a flaw in the implementation.
Wacky Racer said:
Worst I drive an amg post ever.......
LOVE that - "my car is an AMG NOT just a Mercedes but an AMG Oh wow how we are impressed.You want to read the Mercedes Owners Club forums & the snobby superior back-biting about how an AMG car is SO special. Why heavens above there is a dinky little sign on the plastic engine cover to say Adolf Nobody built the engine. Some owners are prat enough to ponce around in black AMG jackets as issued to the oily Mercedes dealer sales staff.
I still dont really get it, if you watch the video the scumbag 1 opens the drivers door as soon as he gets to it, he does reach down briefly below the door, this is before scumbag 2 starts waving the black thing about. However if the signal is caught that early why is scumbag 1 faffing about for so long inside the car, why not just press the start button and be gone?
Maybe he is programming a blank key with a laptop like how so many other BMWs have been stolen recently, but if this is the case why is scumbag 2 still waving that thing about like a pair of soiled boxers. Also surely the car would shut down if its driven off without any key present.
Maybe he is programming a blank key with a laptop like how so many other BMWs have been stolen recently, but if this is the case why is scumbag 2 still waving that thing about like a pair of soiled boxers. Also surely the car would shut down if its driven off without any key present.
HedgeyGedgey said:
Thermobaric said:
Or result in your front door getting kicked in looking for the keys to the disklok.
Yep agreed, if the theives want the car that much they'll get the keys. Some s3's have been taken at gunpoint as a result of people hiding keys etc. This is serious organised crime, if they want the keys they'll get themGassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff