It's not about the money (yeah, right)!

[Stickyfinger]

cmaguire said:

How so?

An SAC is a way of avoiding prosecution or conviction.

When offered, because of the ever increasing likelihood of being caught for another trivial transgression, the massive majority will feel 'pushed' into taking the course whether they want to or not. So there is an element of coercion about the whole thing.

I once travelled from Cambridgeshire to Cheshire to do one of these kind of courses. I certainly didn't want to,

You did not want to ?....ahhhh didums. Transgressions come with consequence....were you not taught that when growing up ?

And you even had a choice ....SAC or Points (Spanking or Naughty-Step), but above all you were caught and are on the receiving end of the result of your actions......suck it up ffs

(Speed limits are another debate)

[cmaguire]

Stickyfinger said:

cmaguire said:

How so?

An SAC is a way of avoiding prosecution or conviction.

When offered, because of the ever increasing likelihood of being caught for another trivial transgression, the massive majority will feel 'pushed' into taking the course whether they want to or not. So there is an element of coercion about the whole thing.

I once travelled from Cambridgeshire to Cheshire to do one of these kind of courses. I certainly didn't want to,

You did not want to ?....ahhhh didums. Transgressions come with consequence....were you not taught that when growing up ?

And you even had a choice ....SAC or Points (Spanking or Naughty-Step), but above all you were caught and are on the receiving end of the result of your actions......suck it up ffs

(Speed limits are another debate)

It wasn't a speeding offence and nowhere did I ask for any sympathy, so put your sanctimonious drivel back in its box.

[Rovinghawk]

vonhosen said:

4rephill said:

Davidonly said:

SAC's (bribes for police waivers): Small sums to Gov't big to the parasites that run this scam. Some folk get rich we get ..... more speed cameras with zero data to justify the whole thing. ZERO!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/police-...

How is it a scam?

It's not, it's enforcement of an offence.

There is a wide perception that it is enforced to a greater degree than less profitable offences.

[Stickyfinger]

cmaguire said:

It wasn't a speeding offence and nowhere did I ask for any sympathy, so put your sanctimonious drivel back in its box.

Whatever....does not matter does it.....

[TwigtheWonderkid]

cmaguire said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

Well it doesn't raise any alarms with me. I couldn't care less.

I don't like smoking and find it unpleasant. I would still advocate the freedom of smokers to do exactly that though, provided it does not impact directly on others.

You should try a dose of altruism sometime, the fact you are happy doddering around like an old fart unnecessarily most of the time doesn't mean everyone else is too.

Eh? Are you hard of reading?

I've already said that I've been on a speed awareness course.I don't care that a private contractor runs it and makes a profit, rather than some hopeless govt department who would no doubt charge motorists twice as much to attend and still manage to make a loss.

[rewc]

"Police forces do not profit from these courses and the financial model provides for cost recovery only."

Perhaps a little clarification on what constitutes 'cost recovery' would be helpful. I would hazard a guess that it is far reaching and covers items of expenditure that would in the past be taken from Police budgets.

[tony wright]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The one I did had 2 guys for 4 hours, plus hire of the hotel facilities where they held it. Plus admin in sending out notices, organising the course etc. 15 people paying £100 so £1500 to cover it. Obviously they make a profit, and as it's a private firm running it who shouldn't they, but I'm not convinced it's the get rich quick scheme you describe.

Probably differs depending on County, but mine had more than double those numbers (Northumberland). Still two guys, but one group upstairs other down and also same again in the afternoon My figures would work out at around 8k for the day.

[spaximus]

I have posted the below before, but I contacted the PCC for Avon and Somerset and she replied with a lengthy letter, the salient part is below. This is a breakdown of where the money goes from fixed cameras in Bristol. Where the police use their vans the money is split between the police, NDORS and the company running the course.
Yes we should not speed but the motorist is a cash cow and remember this was to replace the system of which the speed camera partnerships used to run where they kept all money raised from fines and the lavished it on headquarters bonus payments etc.


To clarify, as far as monies from fines are concerned, either as a result of a Fixed Penalty Notices or a fine given by the court, all of this goes to the treasury. If someone is eligible and elects to go on an awareness course instead of the fine and penalty points, then £35 per attendee is given to Avon and Somerset Police and £5 is retained by ‘NDORS’ (the national team who maintain the national database, complete research and create new courses).

Currently, the money from the speed awareness course is used to self-fund the speed enforcement unit, which includes all staff, equipment, vehicles and camera maintenance. Surplus money is also fed into the Road Safety Fund, where members of the public can apply for grants to assist in road safety initiatives. All money received by the Constabulary from the courses must be used for road safety.

During discussions with Bristol City Council, the Police have agreed that with the static cameras the Constabulary will charge the local authority £7 per detection (this is purely to cover police expenses), which will be taken from the money generated from the speed awareness courses. All surplus will be go to the local authority to maintain the cameras. However, this only effects detection from static cameras - mobile enforcement will remain solely a police responsibility.

[Red Devil]

cmaguire said:

I once travelled from Cambridgeshire to Cheshire to do one of these kind of courses. I certainly didn't want to,

Why?

NDORS website said:

Courses are provided across the whole of England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Scotland also work with NDORS and provide some of the courses. An offender can chose to take a course any where of their choice, where they are available and they do not have to return to the place where the offence was committed, unless they want to. This website helps those who are looking for courses to make that choice.

What is/was special about Cheshire Constabulary (assuming that was where you were caught).

[Johnnytheboy]

I haven't been stopped by the police since camera vans came along (was probably stopped for being a young tt in some way or driving a boy racer ~ 5 times in a decade prior to that). To be honest I hardly see any police nowadays just bimbling about.

I haven't had any points since the change in the destination of speeding fine money made SACs so popular.

So I can see a distinct silver lining to this cloud!

[Leptons]

SantaBarbara said:

TThe 70 mph limit has existed for about fifty years now. Not many motorway miles in those. Days

Thanks. Siri.

[XDA]

vonhosen said:

XDA said:

vonhosen said:

4rephill said:

Davidonly said:

SAC's (bribes for police waivers): Small sums to Gov't big to the parasites that run this scam. Some folk get rich we get ..... more speed cameras with zero data to justify the whole thing. ZERO!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/police-...

How is it a scam?

It's not, it's enforcement of an offence.

Which allows the police and private companies (often employing ex-police officers) to make a nice profit.

Whatever the funding model it's enforcement of an offence. No offence no enforcement.
The Police & private companies don't dictate the funding model, the government do & they've changed it numerous times.
What doesn't change is that it's enforcing a legislated offence.

The police and private companies (often employing ex-police officers) do dictate the cost of these courses.

Why are the police being paid £45 for each driver attending a SAC? What costs is the £45 covering?

[vonhosen]

XDA said:

vonhosen said:

XDA said:

vonhosen said:

4rephill said:

Davidonly said:

SAC's (bribes for police waivers): Small sums to Gov't big to the parasites that run this scam. Some folk get rich we get ..... more speed cameras with zero data to justify the whole thing. ZERO!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/20/police-...

How is it a scam?

It's not, it's enforcement of an offence.

Which allows the police and private companies (often employing ex-police officers) to make a nice profit.

Whatever the funding model it's enforcement of an offence. No offence no enforcement.
The Police & private companies don't dictate the funding model, the government do & they've changed it numerous times.
What doesn't change is that it's enforcing a legislated offence.

The police and private companies (often employing ex-police officers) do dictate the cost of these courses.

Why are the police being paid £45 for each driver attending a SAC? What costs is the £45 covering?

The model of funding is dictated by the government (the cost per course is set depending on local conditions but against the treasury requirements).

https://ndors.org.uk/files/9215/0524/2110/NDORS_Fi...

Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 22 October 22:52

[Newc]

SantaBarbara said:

Actually it is about Reducing fatalities and casualties.

Well no, it clearly isn't.

If it was, then fines would be set at £1,000 per mph over the limit, no margins, no exceptions. And all vehicles sold to the public would be mechanically limited to 70 mph.

As neither of those things have happened, and as the monetary fines are set just at a level to sting but not debilitate, then we can conclude it is primarily to raise revenue with the hope of a byproduct of improved driving behaviour.

[Sheepshanks]

tony wright said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

The one I did had 2 guys for 4 hours, plus hire of the hotel facilities where they held it. Plus admin in sending out notices, organising the course etc. 15 people paying £100 so £1500 to cover it. Obviously they make a profit, and as it's a private firm running it who shouldn't they, but I'm not convinced it's the get rich quick scheme you describe.

Probably differs depending on County, but mine had more than double those numbers (Northumberland). Still two guys, but one group upstairs other down and also same again in the afternoon My figures would work out at around 8k for the day.

Mate of mine works in a business centre in Staffs where they block book the conference room to run these courses and he's commented on what a money-spinner they must be. They have 40 per course and run them morning and afternoon 6 days per week. They've asked to run them evenings too but the centre refused, so they do the evening ones at another venue.

It must take quite a bit of nabbing people by various means to keep the courses fully loaded. As they mainly run by ex-cops, you do wonder if there's an incentive to keep former colleagues in beer money.

[Johnnytheboy]

Mine was at a museum...in a function room inside, so in order to get to the loos you had to walk through the museum. We were told very sternly not to look at any of the exhibits while going to the loo.

We weren't there to enjoy ourselves, after all.

[PhilboSE]

Judging by the astonishingly low knowledge of the Highway Code demonstrated by most of the participants at the SAC I attended, I can only see them as a good thing.

Better than someone paying the same amount of £ as a fine and continuing in the same blissful ignorance.

[ChocolateFrog]

I've been spouting this for a while now but always get shouted down by the people who say you still have the option of taking points and a fine.

True, but in my parents youth the idea of being stopped by the police for being a few mph over the posted speed limit was unheard of. If you were stopped you probably deserved it.

North Yorkshire seems particularly bad, don't know how many vans they have but swear I've passed 3 in one journey. The A64 being popular.

[pinchmeimdreamin]

cmaguire said:

I once travelled from Cambridgeshire to Cheshire to do one of these kind of courses. I certainly didn't want to,

So why didn't you just take the points ?

[turbojay555]

pinchmeimdreamin said:

cmaguire said:

I once travelled from Cambridgeshire to Cheshire to do one of these kind of courses. I certainly didn't want to,

So why didn't you just take the points ?

If it's the same course I went on it was either the course or a court appearance for dwdca.

8 hour course which also involved going out driving with a instructor.

That's the only other course I know that's not for speeding, could be wrong though.