Speed awareness course inbound
Discussion
SCEtoAUX said:
If these courses are so damned good, why aren't all drivers required to attend one?
Because our governors don't have the balls. Four hours every 20 years would not be an excessive burden to keep your licence. Everybody who goes on one of these courses will learn something.
How many know what the traffic light sequence means? Not one person on our course got it right (including me).
mickmcpaddy said:
vonhosen said:
You are on it because you got caught exceeding the speed limit.
You may or may not be a danger, but you've put yourself up for the course with your own actions.
You're on it for a clerical error if you ticked the wrong box (you ticked take the course instead of FPN).
Would you not say speeding is a clerical error, all you have done is point a needle at the number 35 instead of a number 30.You may or may not be a danger, but you've put yourself up for the course with your own actions.
You're on it for a clerical error if you ticked the wrong box (you ticked take the course instead of FPN).
vonhosen said:
fatboy b said:
MLMing is a big issue, so I’ll disagree with you there. It causes one of the biggest (IMO) causes of crashes and road rage. And that’s frustration. All too often I’ll see people undertaking and pulling into non-existent gaps. That��ll end in a collision or a display of bravado from the people involved. That then has a knock-on effect to the immediate surrounding cars having to avoid cars heavy braking or swerving. Proactive policing will help stop this, but as you say budgets are being cut. That can be accepted (as is the case apparently), or it can be fought appropriately if so desired.
I drive on these roads (my work is all about driving on our roads) & I do it all over the country. MLMs aren't a huge problem, I just uneventfully pass them & carry on with my journey. My sat nav when projecting my journey time doesn't know there are MLMs there & if they are it doesn't take me any longer than what the sat nav said it would when I started out hours earlier. They don't cause me to pull into inappropriate gaps either, I choose the gaps I pull into, I'm responsible for the move.It's only a big issue in people's heads because they make it a big issue, or it's big issue of they wish to travel consistently at speeds considerably beyond the speed limit. The authorities don't do much about it because it isn't a huge deal in your journey time for somebody observing the speed limits. You don't really expect them to use resources enforcing it so that people can easily exceed speed limits when they already have resources trying to make sure people don't exceed limits.
I've lost count of the number of times I have been in lane 1 with nothing in it for half a mile ahead and encountered one of these brain dead people bimbling along at 60mph.
I'm then faced with choice of having to go out to lane 3 to pass them and return to lane 1 or stay put and pass them on their nearside.
Neither alternative is desirable. In the first case I have to cross to lane 3 and back again and the second carries an unacceptable degree of risk.
Not to mention potential police attention if spotted.
I can see no legitimate reason why I shoud have my legal course and speed thus affected by these cretins who are breaching HC Rule 264.
Red Devil said:
vonhosen said:
fatboy b said:
MLMing is a big issue, so I’ll disagree with you there. It causes one of the biggest (IMO) causes of crashes and road rage. And that’s frustration. All too often I’ll see people undertaking and pulling into non-existent gaps. That??ll end in a collision or a display of bravado from the people involved. That then has a knock-on effect to the immediate surrounding cars having to avoid cars heavy braking or swerving. Proactive policing will help stop this, but as you say budgets are being cut. That can be accepted (as is the case apparently), or it can be fought appropriately if so desired.
I drive on these roads (my work is all about driving on our roads) & I do it all over the country. MLMs aren't a huge problem, I just uneventfully pass them & carry on with my journey. My sat nav when projecting my journey time doesn't know there are MLMs there & if they are it doesn't take me any longer than what the sat nav said it would when I started out hours earlier. They don't cause me to pull into inappropriate gaps either, I choose the gaps I pull into, I'm responsible for the move.It's only a big issue in people's heads because they make it a big issue, or it's big issue of they wish to travel consistently at speeds considerably beyond the speed limit. The authorities don't do much about it because it isn't a huge deal in your journey time for somebody observing the speed limits. You don't really expect them to use resources enforcing it so that people can easily exceed speed limits when they already have resources trying to make sure people don't exceed limits.
I've lost count of the number of times I have been in lane 1 with nothing in it for half a mile ahead and encountered one of these brain dead people bimbling along at 60mph.
I'm then faced with choice of having to go out to lane 3 to pass them and return to lane 1 or stay put and pass them on their nearside.
Neither alternative is desirable. In the first case I have to cross to lane 3 and back again and the second carries an unacceptable degree of risk.
Not to mention potential police attention if spotted.
I can see no legitimate reason why I shoud have my legal course and speed thus affected by these cretins who are breaching HC Rule 264.
I have to do that to pass traffic that isn't MLMing, it's hardly a hardship.
There's capacity, everyone who wants to get on the motorway can get on the motorway.
The other aspect of that, flow, I've already spoken about. It has no discernible effect on my total journey time at legal speeds. What the satnav says when I leave is invariably what the journey will take (save road closures happening on route etc). At low flow speeds in heavy traffic they have little no effect as the space gets filled around them, in higher flow speeds traffic isn't so congested & there is space to pass.
Actually the unaware minimising their lane changing is no bad thing, I'd prefer to do the lane changing in lieu of them, it'll be safer all round.
I really can't get worked up about it. I've said before the volume of traffic often on our roads & the speed limits in place, lend itself to the (in parts of) US system of minimal lane changing & gentle passing on either side [Progrees is not an imperative in this system]. That's as opposed to the autobahn system [Progress there being an imperative] which demands a keep left (right obvs in Germany) policy.
Once you get your head around forgetting about exceeding limits & accepting/allowing for the journey time on motorways it's really not at all stressful & you don't need to worry about those pesky cameras either. You just need the right mindset to make it work for you, it's really rather pointless hankering over what you can't have (the autobahn system), or getting worked up at things beyond your control. Rather than wasting energy on it you are better to focus on what you can control, your own driving.
I honestly don't think you risk Police attention where in heavy traffic you are travelling at legal speeds passing, on either side, a vehicle moving slightly slower than you. You do where you exceed the limit passing a slower moving vehicle on either side of it.
It appears to me we are moving away from an autobahn system to a US system as a result of a natural cultural/conventional change in response to our traffic volume & speed limits in today's world. It's a natural organic evolutionary response to it.
There's just a little confusion in the transition because the highway code etc says one thing (autobahn system), but road traffic management policy & enforcement naturally leads to another (the US system).
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 24th January 09:07
vonhosen said:
You can't legalise what's not already illegal, there is no offence of undertaking.
It just depends how you do it that draws attention to yourself & could end up in you having committed other offences.
Apply the same rules to passing on the left as the right on same direction multi-lane roads. It just depends how you do it that draws attention to yourself & could end up in you having committed other offences.
I think you know what I'm getting at.
cmaguire said:
vonhosen said:
You can't legalise what's not already illegal, there is no offence of undertaking.
It just depends how you do it that draws attention to yourself & could end up in you having committed other offences.
Apply the same rules to passing on the left as the right on same direction multi-lane roads. It just depends how you do it that draws attention to yourself & could end up in you having committed other offences.
I think you know what I'm getting at.
Gentle passing either side isn't likely to see prosecutions.
Buzzing people on either side is likely to.
Weaving in & out of lanes passing vehicles is likely to (as it does in the US too).
We are moving towards the US 'get in a lane moving at your chosen speed and stay in it at that speed' road trains for our motorway.
The constant battle fighting to make progress that isn't there, whilst the authorities will target you for trying to make is so stressful.
Acceptance of journey times & going serenely with that flow is so less stressful.
You've just got to change the mindset for your own health & well being..........You know it makes sense
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 24th January 09:39
Too many grey areas.
When does something become weaving?
And, allowing for the tolerances you are so fond of, an everyday occurrence could be passing someone doing 50 on the right whilst you are doing 78. I doubt this would be reliably permitted on the left with Police around.
Take away the grey areas.
When does something become weaving?
And, allowing for the tolerances you are so fond of, an everyday occurrence could be passing someone doing 50 on the right whilst you are doing 78. I doubt this would be reliably permitted on the left with Police around.
Take away the grey areas.
vonhosen said:
I really can't get worked up about it. I've said before the volume of traffic often on our roads & the speed limits in place, lend itself to the (in parts of) US system of minimal lane changing & gentle passing on either side [Progrees is not an imperative in this system]. That's as opposed to the autobahn system [Progress there being an imperative] which demands a keep left (right obvs in Germany) policy.
Once you get your head around forgetting about exceeding limits & accepting/allowing for the journey time on motorways it's really not at all stressful & you don't need to worry about those pesky cameras either. You just need the right mindset to make it work for you, it's really rather pointless hankering over what you can't have (the autobahn system), or getting worked up at things beyond your control. Rather than wasting energy on it you are better to focus on what you can control, your own driving.
It appears to me we are moving away from an autobahn system to a US system as a result of a natural cultural/conventional change in response to our traffic volume & speed limits in today's world. It's a natural organic evolutionary response to it.
There's just a little confusion in the transition because the highway code etc says one thing (autobahn system), but road traffic management policy & enforcement naturally leads to another (the US system).
I hate to agree with this but the conclusion is correct. I hate to agree because I would prefer a system that recognises that preventing people making progress has a significant economic effect on business in general. Early in my career I had a job that involved travelling all over the UK visiting clients and conducting product trials. In one particular busy year I covered 50,000 miles. It wasn't (from memory) a particularly stressful experience as the M'ways had significantly less traffic. I'm sure journey times were far quicker in the 70's & 80's than they are now. I certainly couldn't imagine trying to do that amount of travel and work on the current road network, despite cars being far more comfortable and reliable.Once you get your head around forgetting about exceeding limits & accepting/allowing for the journey time on motorways it's really not at all stressful & you don't need to worry about those pesky cameras either. You just need the right mindset to make it work for you, it's really rather pointless hankering over what you can't have (the autobahn system), or getting worked up at things beyond your control. Rather than wasting energy on it you are better to focus on what you can control, your own driving.
It appears to me we are moving away from an autobahn system to a US system as a result of a natural cultural/conventional change in response to our traffic volume & speed limits in today's world. It's a natural organic evolutionary response to it.
There's just a little confusion in the transition because the highway code etc says one thing (autobahn system), but road traffic management policy & enforcement naturally leads to another (the US system).
Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 24th January 09:07
It won't be too long here in the South before we all just flow along at 50mph with all lanes full.
cmaguire said:
Too many grey areas.
When does something become weaving?
And, allowing for the tolerances you are so fond of, an everyday occurrence could be passing someone doing 50 on the right whilst you are doing 78. I doubt this would be reliably permitted on the left with Police around.
Take away the grey areas.
When the notional careful competent driver says so........as now.When does something become weaving?
And, allowing for the tolerances you are so fond of, an everyday occurrence could be passing someone doing 50 on the right whilst you are doing 78. I doubt this would be reliably permitted on the left with Police around.
Take away the grey areas.
I did a TTC one in Worcester at the end of December.
It was very basic but very good in my opinion.
I knew I was speeding and was stupid enough to get caught, the majority of people attending seemed to regard it as an inconvenience rather than the "get out of jail almost free" afternoon that it is.
The course was even £12 cheaper than the fine !
It was very basic but very good in my opinion.
I knew I was speeding and was stupid enough to get caught, the majority of people attending seemed to regard it as an inconvenience rather than the "get out of jail almost free" afternoon that it is.
The course was even £12 cheaper than the fine !
vonhosen said:
Red Devil said:
vonhosen said:
I drive on these roads (my work is all about driving on our roads) & I do it all over the country. MLMs aren't a huge problem, I just uneventfully pass them & carry on with my journey. My sat nav when projecting my journey time doesn't know there are MLMs there & if they are it doesn't take me any longer than what the sat nav said it would when I started out hours earlier. They don't cause me to pull into inappropriate gaps either, I choose the gaps I pull into, I'm responsible for the move.
It's only a big issue in people's heads because they make it a big issue, or it's big issue of they wish to travel consistently at speeds considerably beyond the speed limit. The authorities don't do much about it because it isn't a huge deal in your journey time for somebody observing the speed limits. You don't really expect them to use resources enforcing it so that people can easily exceed speed limits when they already have resources trying to make sure people don't exceed limits.
You've left out one relevant factor though. MLMs seriously reduce the carrying capacity of multi lane roads.It's only a big issue in people's heads because they make it a big issue, or it's big issue of they wish to travel consistently at speeds considerably beyond the speed limit. The authorities don't do much about it because it isn't a huge deal in your journey time for somebody observing the speed limits. You don't really expect them to use resources enforcing it so that people can easily exceed speed limits when they already have resources trying to make sure people don't exceed limits.
I've lost count of the number of times I have been in lane 1 with nothing in it for half a mile ahead and encountered one of these brain dead people bimbling along at 60mph.
I'm then faced with choice of having to go out to lane 3 to pass them and return to lane 1 or stay put and pass them on their nearside.
Neither alternative is desirable. In the first case I have to cross to lane 3 and back again and the second carries an unacceptable degree of risk.
Not to mention potential police attention if spotted.
I can see no legitimate reason why I shoud have my legal course and speed thus affected by these cretins who are breaching HC Rule 264.
I would prefer not to have to move across two lanes (and get involved with the 80+mph bunch in lane 3) when it would only be one if the MLM complied with the HC.
Staying in lane 1 (my preferred option which involves no alteration of course or speed) would mean passing them on the nearside. A situation I would rather avoid.
vonhosen said:
I have to do that to pass traffic that isn't MLMing, it's hardly a hardship.
That's a different scenario from the one I was describing, therefore your point is moot. vonhosen said:
There's capacity, everyone who wants to get on the motorway can get on the motorway.
I wasn't talking about getting on the motorway, but about making proper use of all the avaliable space once you're there.It's not just a lone MLMer (which is just annoying) but far more often a camel train plodding along at 60mph behind him/her.
Meanwhile Lane 1 is empty of vehicles for half a mile (sometimes even to the vanishing point).*
None of those in the camel train want to be in lane 1 because that would involve passing the MLMer the inside
They just follow like sheep until somebody plucks up courage and then darts into lane 3 without using their mirrors.
The progress of faster traffic in lane 3 is impeded and in the worst case scenario a RTC ensues.
* The unused tarmac in lane 1 is thus a wasted asset: the capacity of the road is not being utilised effectively.
vonhosen said:
The other aspect of that, flow, I've already spoken about. It has no discernible effect on my total journey time at legal speeds. What the satnav says when I leave is invariably what the journey will take (save road closures happening on route etc). At low flow speeds in heavy traffic they have little no effect as the space gets filled around them, in higher flow speeds traffic isn't so congested & there is space to pass.
This is simply repeating what you said earlier. You're the one banging on about journey times btw. I never mentioned it.vonhosen said:
Actually the unaware minimising their lane changing is no bad thing, I'd prefer to do the lane changing in lieu of them, it'll be safer all round.
I would prefer it if the MLMers were in the correct lane in the first place. Less TED for those around them.vonhosen said:
I really can't get worked up about it. I've said before the volume of traffic often on our roads & the speed limits in place, lend itself to the (in parts of) US system of minimal lane changing & gentle passing on either side [Progrees is not an imperative in this system]. That's as opposed to the autobahn system [Progress there being an imperative] which demands a keep left (right obvs in Germany) policy.
Once you get your head around forgetting about exceeding limits & accepting/allowing for the journey time on motorways it's really not at all stressful & you don't need to worry about those pesky cameras either. You just need the right mindset to make it work for you, it's really rather pointless hankering over what you can't have (the autobahn system), or getting worked up at things beyond your control. Rather than wasting energy on it you are better to focus on what you can control, your own driving.
Eh? I don't recall saying that I exceeded the speed limit. I'm unlikely to be a victim of pesky cameras even if I did though by keeping within the likely tolerance.Once you get your head around forgetting about exceeding limits & accepting/allowing for the journey time on motorways it's really not at all stressful & you don't need to worry about those pesky cameras either. You just need the right mindset to make it work for you, it's really rather pointless hankering over what you can't have (the autobahn system), or getting worked up at things beyond your control. Rather than wasting energy on it you are better to focus on what you can control, your own driving.
It's simply not worth the candle to go beyond that.
vonhosen said:
I honestly don't think you risk Police attention where in heavy traffic you are travelling at legal speeds passing, on either side, a vehicle moving slightly slower than you.
Define heavy. The problem I described is in the intermediate stage between very light/almost deserted (where it's no big deal, just annoying) and nose to tail congestion in all lanes.
vonhosen said:
You do where you exceed the limit passing a slower moving vehicle on either side of it.
Quite but, again, in my previous post I never mentioned exceeding the limit.vonhosen said:
It appears to me we are moving away from an autobahn system to a US system as a result of a natural cultural/conventional change in response to our traffic volume & speed limits in today's world. It's a natural organic evolutionary response to it.
There's just a little confusion in the transition because the highway code etc says one thing (autobahn system), but road traffic management policy & enforcement naturally leads to another (the US system).
Well perhaps it would help if TPTB could make up their collective minds and decide which side of the fence to come down on.There's just a little confusion in the transition because the highway code etc says one thing (autobahn system), but road traffic management policy & enforcement naturally leads to another (the US system).
Then we would all know where we stand. Uncertainty is an uncomfortable bedfellow.
Red Devil said:
Loads of stuff I'm not going to quote
When I said 'you' I didn't mean you specifically in relation to exceeding limits.I should have been clearer & used third person terms as opposed to those that could be taken to be second person.
My bad.
I can't see the powers that be addressing the issues you refer to much.
They have far more pressing matters on their plate.
However I can see the cultural/evolutionary change taking it on the natural course I outlined.
I think the Highway Code will in the end change to reflect the difference, already on a lot of SMART motorways we see 'STAY IN LANE' on the gantries.
I actually don't mind the 50mph average camera enforced roadworks & I'm through them quite a bit.
Invariably there is a lot of traffic, all doing the same speed, no point in changing lanes, it's possible to maintain reasonable space in front & when I look at my average speed through them for mile after mile it's bang on 50. People have given up the aggressive fight & moving around.
It's not stressful at all & all pretty predictable/consistent behaviour around me.
Contrast that to the 70mph limit sections with no average speed cameras it's still busy, hustle bustle, people fighting to make progress that isn't really there to be had, queues ahead at busy intersections resulting in more stop/start. Far more hassle/stress & not much better average speed even though the possibility of legally using speeds 20mph higher. Sit in lane 1 trundling along & see those that fly past me re-appear alongside where it all breaks down at the next hold up ahead. Rinse & repeat.
We have a choice of working ourselves into a lather hankering after something we just aren't likely to get, or we can protect our own sanity by working out a way to get to our destinations on our motorway journeys whilst minimising stress, keeping some space in front, keeping active vision scans.
Course done. Nothing said I already knew. The two presenters were completely pro-brake and had no common sense between them. One was an ex-cop, and would have been more at home running a hotel in Torquey from the 70s tbh. When I tried to partake with an answer to a question, I was shot down in flames in front of everyone for giving (so they thought) an incorrect answer. I kept quiet after that and started clock watching.
What I took away:
3/4 of the room had little idea on the rules of the road. So I guess I will drive with that in mind now. 3/18 didn’t know the national speed limit for car on a single carriageway. 17/18 didn’t realise two lanes in each direction separated by a white line wasn’t dual carriageway.
What I took away:
3/4 of the room had little idea on the rules of the road. So I guess I will drive with that in mind now. 3/18 didn’t know the national speed limit for car on a single carriageway. 17/18 didn’t realise two lanes in each direction separated by a white line wasn’t dual carriageway.
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