Cycle Event Marshals
Discussion
mickmcpaddy said:
If I decide to go out to the supermarket and do some shopping why would I need to give way to a load of lycra louts trying to take over the roads? If I am on a main road and they come up to a give way its there responsibility to stop, not mine, no matter how colourful someones little flag is.
Given this is a car forum, I’d politely point out that it was the fact that cycle racing in the roads is permitted that has, at least in part, contributed to the recent law change allowing competition car events on closed roads (which might involve similar, although hopefully better controlled, marshalling).mickmcpaddy said:
If I decide to go out to the supermarket and do some shopping why would I need to give way to a load of lycra louts trying to take over the roads? If I am on a main road and they come up to a give way its there responsibility to stop, not mine, no matter how colourful someones little flag is.
Such a bitter little man.JPJPJP said:
A normal cycle race peloton is 60 people
For the sake of 90 seconds as they pass
This would be no problem at all, but we are not talking Tour De France, it is the groups of a 1, 2 and 3 every fifty meters spread out over a couple of hours and many miles.For the sake of 90 seconds as they pass
It would be fine if one set of rules applied equally to both sides, it could be called the highway code.
A few years ago now a member of the public was warning drivers not to go down a particular road. The reason was a car had driven into some sort of farming behemoth. Someone was standing in the road tending a casualty.
The chap signalled to a driver to turn off but, maybe having come from a supermarket and feeling important, one never knows, the driver decided to ignore the signal and drive on at normal speed. The person tending a casualty was injured.
The driver was charged with careless driving but the fact that he had ignored a person signalling him to take an alternative route was a major factor. The appeal court decided that the driver should have taken notice.
At the time there was no suggestion in the decision that he should have followed the directions but that he should have taken extreme care.
There have been decisions, all of lower appeal courts, that have reinforced this presumption and extended it.
So you can, legally, ignore the directions of anyone regulating traffic outside of a statutory authority, but have an accident and the fact you did so can be proof you drove carelessly.
The chap signalled to a driver to turn off but, maybe having come from a supermarket and feeling important, one never knows, the driver decided to ignore the signal and drive on at normal speed. The person tending a casualty was injured.
The driver was charged with careless driving but the fact that he had ignored a person signalling him to take an alternative route was a major factor. The appeal court decided that the driver should have taken notice.
At the time there was no suggestion in the decision that he should have followed the directions but that he should have taken extreme care.
There have been decisions, all of lower appeal courts, that have reinforced this presumption and extended it.
So you can, legally, ignore the directions of anyone regulating traffic outside of a statutory authority, but have an accident and the fact you did so can be proof you drove carelessly.
Dixy said:
JPJPJP said:
A normal cycle race peloton is 60 people
For the sake of 90 seconds as they pass
This would be no problem at all, but we are not talking Tour De France, it is the groups of a 1, 2 and 3 every fifty meters spread out over a couple of hours and many miles.For the sake of 90 seconds as they pass
It would be fine if one set of rules applied equally to both sides, it could be called the highway code.
Derek Smith said:
The only thing worse than traffic direction is blocking off a road from pedestrians. The police tape, the big sign saying road blocked, the line of police and the empty road on the other side just doesn't seem to register. They'd probably just got out of their cars.
Ain't that the truth! I work with fireworks and sometimes close private beaches, paths, roads , and barrier tape and no entry signs seem to just mean "lift it up and go under when we are not looking" - often when I'm standing 15 feet away. Someone recently climbed under the tape and walked right through the middle of our display setup and when I stopped them they acted all surprised and claimed they had no idea it was a no go zone . I pointed at the barrier they had just climbed under and literally just looked at them and said "really?". I was embarrassed for them. People frequently do it to save walking round a square of 100mx100m or less.God only knows what it's like marshalling on public land.
RogerDodger said:
Ain't that the truth! I work with fireworks and sometimes close private beaches, paths, roads , and barrier tape and no entry signs seem to just mean "lift it up and go under when we are not looking" - often when I'm standing 15 feet away. Someone recently climbed under the tape and walked right through the middle of our display setup and when I stopped them they acted all surprised and claimed they had no idea it was a no go zone . I pointed at the barrier they had just climbed under and literally just looked at them and said "really?". I was embarrassed for them. People frequently do it to save walking round a square of 100mx100m or less.
God only knows what it's like marshalling on public land.
There was an incident in London, I forget what, and I was detailed to stop pedestrian walking up Chancery Lane during working hours. There were a lot of entitled, in more ways than one, business people who thought their needs were greater than ours. God only knows what it's like marshalling on public land.
In our group were a couple of Met officers - I was City of London, it was on the border - who were a little irritated early on and didn't mind sharing their irritation with members of the public. When dealing with MoPs, one Met would point to his breast pocket and raise the flap, after which the MoP would eventually go off in a huff.. During a refreshing break in foot traffic I wandered over and he raised on flap which had a piece of paper under it which read 'I don't bloody know' which, he said, he showed to people who asked awkward questions. If they carried on asking he raised the other flap, the note reading 'F**k Off', except spelt fully.
If only I was that brave, but I had a pension to look after.
mickmcpaddy said:
If I decide to go out to the supermarket and do some shopping why would I need to give way to a load of lycra louts trying to take over the roads? If I am on a main road and they come up to a give way its there responsibility to stop, not mine, no matter how colourful someones little flag is.
I'm a little surprised your not upset that you don't have a full police escort with blues and twos for such an urgent errand on a Sunday. BMWBen said:
Right... and so do they...
And they're not "doing as they please" any more than you are. They're going about their business using the road in a lawful way. If you decide you don't like that and decide to take things into your own hands, you're the one being anti-social. It's the very definition of it.
P.S. Why the I/They tribalism, we're all humans, citizens and taxpayers after all. "They" are also car drivers in the vast majority of cases. As well as parents, friends...
It doesn't matter if the cyclists pay to use the road or not, they are still preventing people that have paid too from using it.And they're not "doing as they please" any more than you are. They're going about their business using the road in a lawful way. If you decide you don't like that and decide to take things into your own hands, you're the one being anti-social. It's the very definition of it.
P.S. Why the I/They tribalism, we're all humans, citizens and taxpayers after all. "They" are also car drivers in the vast majority of cases. As well as parents, friends...
Edited by BMWBen on Sunday 18th February 22:16
If I go to a concert I can't demand a private showing because I have paid the same as everyone else.
mickmcpaddy said:
BMWBen said:
Right... and so do they...
And they're not "doing as they please" any more than you are. They're going about their business using the road in a lawful way. If you decide you don't like that and decide to take things into your own hands, you're the one being anti-social. It's the very definition of it.
P.S. Why the I/They tribalism, we're all humans, citizens and taxpayers after all. "They" are also car drivers in the vast majority of cases. As well as parents, friends...
It doesn't matter if the cyclists pay to use the road or not, they are still preventing people that have paid too from using it.And they're not "doing as they please" any more than you are. They're going about their business using the road in a lawful way. If you decide you don't like that and decide to take things into your own hands, you're the one being anti-social. It's the very definition of it.
P.S. Why the I/They tribalism, we're all humans, citizens and taxpayers after all. "They" are also car drivers in the vast majority of cases. As well as parents, friends...
Edited by BMWBen on Sunday 18th February 22:16
If I go to a concert I can't demand a private showing because I have paid the same as everyone else.
Do you get irate about the people crossing the junction in front of you while you wait at a red light too? If not, why not?
Your analogy is complete nonsense as well.
Seeing as how it's gone so far off topic already, I give you...
"self entitled dog walkers and mountain bikers who lift the white cordon tape to enter a live explosives safety area"
Yup. Chimera Bridge on the army training area at Minley Manor. There's this specially built "bridge to nowhere" that the Royal Engineers training regiment uses to practice bridge demolitions. It has extra plates and concrete panels fitted as sacrificial targets for bolt gun training, and has three spans, each of a different construction method.
Troops being trained turn up to the site and are required to prepare the bridge for demolition using 'Training' charges that contain no explosives. So the public tend to have an air of over-confidence when it comes to getting close to the training serials. But every now and then, a more advanced course will be using the bridge, and their training serial is due to be "interrupted" by an enemy attack to assess how they react. One part of this attack is a "simulated artillery/mortar attack" using live PE4 in approx ⅓ of a stick charges. Usually six or nine "bangs" all laid out on sandbags (to reduce fragmentation risk from stones in the soil) along a path in an adjacent copse of trees.
White pvc tape is usually used to cordon off the copse while the live explosives are lying about, with a couple of sentries who try to stay out of sight of the troops on the bridge. Now the path through the copse is regularly used on local (MOD authorised) MTB race laps, so it follows that MTBers like to use it outside of races. And because it's a firm, well drained, and well trodden route, dog walkers love to use it too.
It amazes me how stupid people can be, lifting up a cordon tape to walk or cycle through a small area containing 1½ lb of military explosive, all to save the whole extra 150 metres or so that it takes to walk (or ride) around the copse instead of through it...
"self entitled dog walkers and mountain bikers who lift the white cordon tape to enter a live explosives safety area"
Yup. Chimera Bridge on the army training area at Minley Manor. There's this specially built "bridge to nowhere" that the Royal Engineers training regiment uses to practice bridge demolitions. It has extra plates and concrete panels fitted as sacrificial targets for bolt gun training, and has three spans, each of a different construction method.
Troops being trained turn up to the site and are required to prepare the bridge for demolition using 'Training' charges that contain no explosives. So the public tend to have an air of over-confidence when it comes to getting close to the training serials. But every now and then, a more advanced course will be using the bridge, and their training serial is due to be "interrupted" by an enemy attack to assess how they react. One part of this attack is a "simulated artillery/mortar attack" using live PE4 in approx ⅓ of a stick charges. Usually six or nine "bangs" all laid out on sandbags (to reduce fragmentation risk from stones in the soil) along a path in an adjacent copse of trees.
White pvc tape is usually used to cordon off the copse while the live explosives are lying about, with a couple of sentries who try to stay out of sight of the troops on the bridge. Now the path through the copse is regularly used on local (MOD authorised) MTB race laps, so it follows that MTBers like to use it outside of races. And because it's a firm, well drained, and well trodden route, dog walkers love to use it too.
It amazes me how stupid people can be, lifting up a cordon tape to walk or cycle through a small area containing 1½ lb of military explosive, all to save the whole extra 150 metres or so that it takes to walk (or ride) around the copse instead of through it...
mickmcpaddy said:
BMWBen said:
Right... and so do they...
And they're not "doing as they please" any more than you are. They're going about their business using the road in a lawful way. If you decide you don't like that and decide to take things into your own hands, you're the one being anti-social. It's the very definition of it.
P.S. Why the I/They tribalism, we're all humans, citizens and taxpayers after all. "They" are also car drivers in the vast majority of cases. As well as parents, friends...
It doesn't matter if the cyclists pay to use the road or not, they are still preventing people that have paid too from using it.And they're not "doing as they please" any more than you are. They're going about their business using the road in a lawful way. If you decide you don't like that and decide to take things into your own hands, you're the one being anti-social. It's the very definition of it.
P.S. Why the I/They tribalism, we're all humans, citizens and taxpayers after all. "They" are also car drivers in the vast majority of cases. As well as parents, friends...
Edited by BMWBen on Sunday 18th February 22:16
If I go to a concert I can't demand a private showing because I have paid the same as everyone else.
I went on a cruise too. It doesn't matter if other passengers have paid the same all-inclusive rate as me, they were still preventing me from getting to the food first by forming themselves into an orderly queue, in a completely unreasonable manner. Do these people have no idea who I am, FFS?
And what of the totally selfish a
holes who got to an event car park before me? Not one of them considered sacrificing their right to park on the tarmac car park to save me from having to park in the overflow field and consequently having to walk an extra 300 muddy yards!!!Waaaaaaaaah!
I think the way that unofficial marshals directing events on the road go about dealing with members of the public pretty much guarantees the way that the public will respond to them.
Someone stopping traffic and having a smile and a friendly word about a short delay while the peloton clears the road will get a much better response than the hi-viz red flag waver whose perceived power has overcome his ability to interact with fellow humans.
Of course, there's always the awkward git, on both sides.
Someone stopping traffic and having a smile and a friendly word about a short delay while the peloton clears the road will get a much better response than the hi-viz red flag waver whose perceived power has overcome his ability to interact with fellow humans.
Of course, there's always the awkward git, on both sides.
Paul Dishman said:
I think the way that unofficial marshals directing events on the road go about dealing with members of the public pretty much guarantees the way that the public will respond to them.
Someone stopping traffic and having a smile and a friendly word about a short delay while the peloton clears the road will get a much better response than the hi-viz red flag waver whose perceived power has overcome his ability to interact with fellow humans.
Of course, there's always the awkward git, on both sides.
Someone stopping traffic and having a smile and a friendly word about a short delay while the peloton clears the road will get a much better response than the hi-viz red flag waver whose perceived power has overcome his ability to interact with fellow humans.
Of course, there's always the awkward git, on both sides.
I asked two pretty straightforward questions & got almost instant replies with official links to the correct information. Much as I can't stand MAMILS & f
king cycle road racing events, it seems I have to put up with it & move on.Even by PH standards, I'm amazed at some of the later posts!
mickmcpaddy said:
If I decide to go out to the supermarket and do some shopping why would I need to give way to a load of lycra louts trying to take over the roads? If I am on a main road and they come up to a give way its there responsibility to stop, not mine, no matter how colourful someones little flag is.
I think this is a big problem in the UK. The British are obsessed with shopping, and *woe betide* anybody who comes between a typical Brit and the supermarket. We love to shop all hours, whereas most of the rest of Europe ime doesn't. Few shops and stores are open all day Sundays in Europe, Germany doesn't even open all day Saturday except for the first Saturday of the month.In Europe they hold many great events involving closure or interruption the public roads, not least the Le Mans 24 hours, Le Tour de France, the Mille Miglia, etc etc. I've long thought you could never run events like this in the UK because just so many people would whinge (whereas the 3 events I mention seem to celebrate all that is good in life, especially the Mille Miglia imo).
mickmcpaddy said:
Get over myself? I paying an absolute fortune to use these crater infested roads, why should cyclists get to do as they please and not me.
In what way are the cyclists paying less? If they own a nicer house and pay more council tax, they're paying more for the roads than you, and they can still only do what the law allows.mickmcpaddy said:
It doesn't matter if the cyclists pay to use the road or not, they are still preventing people that have paid too from using it.
If I go to a concert I can't demand a private showing because I have paid the same as everyone else.
They're not preventing anyone from using the roads (unlike Le Mans, Le Tour, Monte Carlo and other road rallies), they're just asking you to cut a tiny, tiny bit of slack - but in the UK that's a BIG ask, far too big an ask imo for any sort of meaningful events to be able to take place.If I go to a concert I can't demand a private showing because I have paid the same as everyone else.
It's very depressing imo.
JPJPJP said:
Biker 1 said:
Wouldn't really be a problem if they were all just a bit less militant about it. The marshal bloke was pretty obnoxious - similar to a GP receptionist or librarian.....
Sounds pretty standard for the cycling marshalls I’ve interacted with (and I say that as a cyclist)The power goes to their heads
ChevronB19 said:
mickmcpaddy said:
If I decide to go out to the supermarket and do some shopping why would I need to give way to a load of lycra louts trying to take over the roads? If I am on a main road and they come up to a give way its there responsibility to stop, not mine, no matter how colourful someones little flag is.
Given this is a car forum, I’d politely point out that it was the fact that cycle racing in the roads is permitted that has, at least in part, contributed to the recent law change allowing competition car events on closed roads (which might involve similar, although hopefully better controlled, marshalling).In Scarborough the roads on Olivers Mount have been closed two or three weekends a year for motorcycle racing, and at other times for hillclimbs and the like; so what has changed? I also seem to recall the same roads being used for special stages on the RAC Rally in the past.
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