Police cutbacks what a joke

Police cutbacks what a joke

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Discussion

In Arduis Fouette

97 posts

70 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
sssssssslow said:
I saw a kid moped was chasing another kid WITH A HAMMER and ended up smashing a car window and I called the police, and got... "all our operators are busy" they called me back and were annoyed I hadn't got the make and model of the bike despite getting the reg.

you don't get 'all our operators are busy' on the 9s ... ( and the telco operator has a fall back plan if they can;t connect you to the correct force ) ...

colinrob

Original Poster:

1,198 posts

250 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
We are a small company with three directors and one employee we all work either at our unit or driving, I do 99% of the driving my fellow director (nephew) only drives if I am on holiday, it is a 14 plate Mercedes sprinter, with approx 110,000 miles, always Insurared, taxed and mot’d, unfortunately my nephew was driving, they were pulling every van and the car park was full apparently, everything on our van (apart from the sticker, which we now have) was legal, there was no fine for a f****n sticker, Han I been driving I may well have said I was the only driver then you don’t need a sticker

Pothole

34,367 posts

281 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
PAULJ5555 said:
I wonder how many people not in works vans went past this stop point that had bald tyres, had booze or drugs in them.
You don't wonder how many which were stopped did?

colinrob

Original Poster:

1,198 posts

250 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
To clarify the various points made it was the council that issued the FPN, they were there supported by the police, they took various pictures inside the cab to show it did not have a sticker, spoke to one of our customers who was 100yards from where we were pulled and he told us he got pulled about three weeks ago, the same guy who pulled him then visited his premises with a FPN for not displaying a no smoking sign at his premises without checking, when he showed him his sticker (bearing in mind he is a butcher) he then asked for his waste disposal records, it is ilford council being support by an under resourced police looking to make some more C***s

pavarotti1980

4,837 posts

83 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
colinrob said:
To clarify the various points made it was the council that issued the FPN, they were there supported by the police, they took various pictures inside the cab to show it did not have a sticker, spoke to one of our customers who was 100yards from where we were pulled and he told us he got pulled about three weeks ago, the same guy who pulled him then visited his premises with a FPN for not displaying a no smoking sign at his premises without checking, when he showed him his sticker (bearing in mind he is a butcher) he then asked for his waste disposal records, it is ilford council being support by an under resourced police looking to make some more C***s
Council have no powers to stop vehicles so that's why police were there. Same with council activities like taxi enforcement

Dibble

12,923 posts

239 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
colinrob said:
To clarify the various points made it was the council that issued the FPN, they were there supported by the police, they took various pictures inside the cab to show it did not have a sticker, spoke to one of our customers who was 100yards from where we were pulled and he told us he got pulled about three weeks ago, the same guy who pulled him then visited his premises with a FPN for not displaying a no smoking sign at his premises without checking, when he showed him his sticker (bearing in mind he is a butcher) he then asked for his waste disposal records, it is ilford council being support by an under resourced police looking to make some more C***s
So, not a ticket issued by the police at all then.

Quelle surprise...

Who took the pictures? Police or council?

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
Dibble said:
So, not a ticket issued by the police at all then.

Quelle surprise...

Who took the pictures? Police or council?
I think everybody figured out several pages back that it was not the police who handed out the ticket. Nor was looking for missing 'no smoking' stickers the primary purpose of this particular day out for the police, VOSA, the local council or anybody else there.

The paragraph above is still consistent with this being a complete waste of resources over a petty sticker. The time spent, by anyone, regardless of which agency was involved, enforcing non-display of a sticker is a waste of time.

More than a waste of time. I think it makes everybody involved, including the police, look really fking stupid.

Dibble

12,923 posts

239 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
colinrob said:
Our van just got pulled in dagenham the are police pulling all vans to see if they have no smoking signs displayed, over 10 police there, they moan about not enough resorces well my support for them has gone right out of the window, what a waste of resources, mind you they may get the proceeds of the fine £200, i am stunned
Not Google translate said:

“Our company vehicle was stopped by Police in Dagenham, during a multi agency operation. We didn’t have the correct stickers for no smoking in the vehicle, so we were issued with a ticket by the relevant agency, Ilford Council, for a breach of that legislation, which was nothing to do with the Police, who had no involvement, other than stopping vehicles or dealing with criminal/motoring matters that came to light. The Police won’t see a penny of the fine issued in relation to the lack of signage”.

Doesn’t really quite have the same ranty ring to it, does it?

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
colinrob said:
To clarify the various points made it was the council that issued the FPN, they were there supported by the police, they took various pictures inside the cab to show it did not have a sticker, spoke to one of our customers who was 100yards from where we were pulled and he told us he got pulled about three weeks ago, the same guy who pulled him then visited his premises with a FPN for not displaying a no smoking sign at his premises without checking, when he showed him his sticker (bearing in mind he is a butcher) he then asked for his waste disposal records, it is ilford council being support by an under resourced police looking to make some more C***s
If the LA wish to undertake enforcement, how else will they get moving vehicles to stop?

They need the police.

Yes, a fine for not having a 'no smoking' badge is lame, but the police presence (which you're objecting to) allows them to deal with things like 'no insurance' etc, which I doubt many would consider a waste of time.

Dibble

12,923 posts

239 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
creampuff said:
Dibble said:
So, not a ticket issued by the police at all then.

Quelle surprise...

Who took the pictures? Police or council?
I think everybody figured out several pages back that it was not the police who handed out the ticket. Nor was looking for missing 'no smoking' stickers the primary purpose of this particular day out for the police, VOSA, the local council or anybody else there.

The paragraph above is still consistent with this being a complete waste of resources over a petty sticker. The time spent, by anyone, regardless of which agency was involved, enforcing non-display of a sticker is a waste of time.

More than a waste of time. I think it makes everybody involved, including the police, look really fking stupid.
See below (or above, I guess). Not at all how the original post came over.

You or I may agree/disagree on whether or not the ticket for lack of the no smoking sticker was relevant. I’ve no idea whether this was a “repeat offender” who has previously been warned about the lack of stickers, a zero tolerance clamp down or somewhere in between.

The fact the council saw fit to issue a ticket is outwith the control of the police. Yes, it’s a bit “The law is the law”, but would you feel the same if it was VOSA issuing a prohibition for a vehicle that was 5% overweight? What about 10%? 15%? Yes, it’s the bottom end of “seriousness” but someone, somewhere has decided that is where the line was drawn that day. As far as that goes, it matters not a jot whether we agree or disagree with it.

I’ve no idea about what stickers are needed in company vehicles for smoking, but I do know if I ran company vehicles, I’d find out (especially if I’d previously worked in “health and safety”). I do know our police vehicles have “no smoking” stickers in them, even the plain cars we use on CID.

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
creampuff said:
Dibble said:
So, not a ticket issued by the police at all then.

Quelle surprise...

Who took the pictures? Police or council?
I think everybody figured out several pages back that it was not the police who handed out the ticket. Nor was looking for missing 'no smoking' stickers the primary purpose of this particular day out for the police, VOSA, the local council or anybody else there.

The paragraph above is still consistent with this being a complete waste of resources over a petty sticker. The time spent, by anyone, regardless of which agency was involved, enforcing non-display of a sticker is a waste of time.

More than a waste of time. I think it makes everybody involved, including the police, look really fking stupid.
You could also say it would have been a bigger waste of time & money if having stopped him & the other vans to investigate, they had neglected to report him/them for any offences they subsequently discovered.

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
Dibble said:
which was nothing to do with the Police, who had no involvement, other than stopping vehicles or dealing with criminal/motoring matters that came to light. The Police won’t see a penny of the fine issued in relation to the lack of signage”.

Doesn’t really quite have the same ranty ring to it, does it?
Nope, regular readers of PH will know that in general, I strongly support the police.

However by being involved in petty jobsworth fine-handing-out, it makes the police look stupid. It reflects badly on the police. It reflects on them, the same way anything which is a fk up and waste of time, reflects badly on the people involved even when they are not directly responsible for it.

I do not believe that there is no overhead for the police, or for VOSA or for other agencies who might have been there, by having the council hand out petty fines. Just the fact that the van was there, occupying road space while this was being dealt with by the council, will have meant the police or VOSA were not doing something else.

If the council wants to enforce no smoking stickers in vans, they can go an do that in the same way they enforce no smoking stickers in brick-and-mortar workplaces. Do we need police involvement in that? No.

Edited by creampuff on Thursday 24th May 20:54

vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
creampuff said:
Dibble said:
which was nothing to do with the Police, who had no involvement, other than stopping vehicles or dealing with criminal/motoring matters that came to light. The Police won’t see a penny of the fine issued in relation to the lack of signage”.

Doesn’t really quite have the same ranty ring to it, does it?
Nope, regular readers of PH will know that in general, I strongly support the police.

However by being involved in petty jobsworth fine-handing-out, it makes the police look stupid. It reflects badly on the police. It reflects on them, the same way anything which is a fk up and waste of time, reflects badly on the people involved even when they are not directly responsible for it.

I do not believe that there is no overhead for the police, or for VOSA or for other agencies who might have been there, by having the council hand out petty fines. Just the fact that the van was there, occupying road space while this was being dealt with by the council, will have meant the police or VOSA were not doing something else.

If the council wants to enforce no smoking stickers in vans, they can go an do that in the same way they enforce no smoking stickers in brick-and-mortar workplaces. Do we need police involvement in that? No.
Police would have been there to stop vehicles & deal with any Police matters coming to light, that's the justification for the overhead of the Police being there. The other agencies are there for their own remits. Just a case of all an all bases covered scenario. That's a fairly efficient use of resources with the overlaps that occur.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
In the case of the OP's van stop. Clearly Police exercise their powers under the RTA to stop and check documents and the vehicle for any offences. Once the officers finished, are drivers obliged to remain and engage with other agencies at the scene?

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
Police would have been there to stop vehicles & deal with any Police matters coming to light, that's the justification for the overhead of the Police being there. The other agencies are there for their own remits. Just a case of all an all bases covered scenario. That's a fairly efficient use of resources with the overlaps that occur.
No it's not efficient, because the police and VOSA are there to do something useful, while the council handing out no-sticker signs are there to do something useless and of no value. Useless and of no value if my opinion of course, but it seems from the responses on this thread I am not alone in that opinion. By having one agency of your multi-agency day out being useless and of no value, it makes the entire day out less effective for the remaining agencies who are useful.

There are all manner of police duties where the local council could tag along looking for petty infractions, if you think this is a useful way to do things.


anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
Bigends said:
In the case of the OP's van stop. Clearly Police exercise their powers under the RTA to stop and check documents and the vehicle for any offences. Once the officers finished, are drivers obliged to remain and engage with other agencies at the scene?
My guess would be that it's a criminal offence, so if they don't wish to remain they'd be arrested.





vonhosen

40,198 posts

216 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
creampuff said:
vonhosen said:
Police would have been there to stop vehicles & deal with any Police matters coming to light, that's the justification for the overhead of the Police being there. The other agencies are there for their own remits. Just a case of all an all bases covered scenario. That's a fairly efficient use of resources with the overlaps that occur.
No it's not efficient, because the police and VOSA are there to do something useful, while the council handing out no-sticker signs are there to do something useless and of no value. Useless and of no value if my opinion of course, but it seems from the responses on this thread I am not alone in that opinion. By having one agency of your multi-agency day out being useless and of no value, it makes the entire day out less effective for the remaining agencies who are useful.

There are all manner of police duties where the local council could tag along looking for petty infractions, if you think this is a useful way to do things.
That detracts no value from the Police presence looking for things that they deal with, it hasn't stopped them or diverted them from doing what they needed to do at the location. A smaller fish hanging around has just picked up some scraps that they look for. The small fish ignoring the scraps they look for would make no sense.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
La Liga said:
y guess would be that it's a criminal offence, so if they don't wish to remain they'd be arrested.

For what? You're not obstructing Police as they've finished with you Is it an offence not to engage with the council official or allow entry to search the vehicle for the no smoking sticker?


From the smoke free Englans website in relation to enforcement

What Involvement Will Police Have in Enforcement
The police will only get involved in Smoke Free legislation where there is public disorder or where there is threatening behaviour involved.

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 24th May 21:39

creampuff

6,511 posts

142 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
vonhosen said:
That detracts no value from the Police presence looking for things that they deal with, it hasn't stopped them or diverted them from doing what they needed to do at the location. A smaller fish hanging around has just picked up some scraps that they look for. The small fish ignoring the scraps they look for would make no sense.
^ If the local council can tag along here, why should they not tag along more often when the police are going about their duty if it has no effect on the police? Why stop at the police; the fire brigade will often conduct fire safety inspections. The council could tag along to look for no smoking signs there too.

It obviously occupies police time. The police would need to interface with the council during planning. The police have a duty of care to operate a safe scene, so they would need to devote some time, however minimal, to observing the council enforcement officers while they are going about their useless job.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 24th May 2018
quotequote all
Bigends said:
La Liga said:
My guess would be that it's a criminal offence, so if they don't wish to remain they'd be arrested.
For what? You're not obstructing Police as they've finished with you Is it an offence not to engage with the council official or allow entry to search the vehicle for the no smoking sticker?
I assume, since it's technically a crime, the police could take over and report on summons, which would bring in the necessity test etc.