Are Smart Motorways Dangerous?
Discussion
speedyguy said:
100 said:
I truly hate the speeding up and slowing down - when others don’t obey it, it just feels unsafe slowing down... knowing you might be rear ended
You know if you're rear ended it's down to a cock driver not looking where they're going ? Not the signals implemented to try and smooth traffic flows/throughout.A bit like those unfortunately killed on motorways where the idiot killing them hasn't looked where they are going and ploughed into them ?
PurpleTurtle said:
Claire Mercer, the widow featured in that ITV article and also in The Sunday Times magazine this weekend runs the Smart Motorways Kill page on Facebook.
Give it a 'Like' if you feel strongly about this subject.
https://www.facebook.com/smartmotorwayskill/
smart motorway skill, is that something for Alexa ?Give it a 'Like' if you feel strongly about this subject.
https://www.facebook.com/smartmotorwayskill/
speedyguy said:
100 said:
I truly hate the speeding up and slowing down - when others don’t obey it, it just feels unsafe slowing down... knowing you might be rear ended
You know if you're rear ended it's down to a cock driver not looking where they're going ? Not the signals implemented to try and smooth traffic flows/throughout.A bit like those unfortunately killed on motorways where the idiot killing them hasn't looked where they are going and ploughed into them ?
Numerous times I've been on a motorway (in particular the M42) where for no obvious or apparent reason or hazard, the limit drops seemingly randomly.
Digga said:
The yo-yoing of the limit creates a very much higher risk that a car, that either doesn't see the new limit,mour plain does not care, might plot into a vehicle slowing in order to comply.
And ? Poor driver behaviour Digga said:
Numerous times I've been on a motorway (in particular the M42) where for no obvious or apparent reason or hazard, the limit drops seemingly randomly.
Have a read, the info you want is near the bottom 
starting with the bit in the picture.https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/timing_and_...
The whole system is dynamic and responds minute by minute to the current conditions anywhere on the controlled section
I don't know how to quote the above but it is from the FOI request Speedyguy attached. What utter rubbish. The system may well be designed to operate on a minute by minute basis but I've lost count of the number of times I've been on a section of motorway in the middle of the night with the limits at 60, 50 or 40 and nothing whatsover present. No collision. No HA vehicles, nothing.
I wrote to HE last Spring when I'd driven South on the M1 and got to a section where it went 4 into 1 lane...Lanes 1-3 were closed with the big red cross of doom, we all dutifully slowed and drove down lane 4. For perhaps 3 miles until we could see in the distance the 'de-restriction' sign. Perhaps half of drivers saw the sign in good time and made a sensible choice to realign with lane 1/2 etc. The other half were confused and stayed in lane 4, at about 45-50mph. It all became a bit dangerous (in my mirror) The reply from HE stated that some road works had taken place overnight but had been completed some time prior to my passing the location. It is the responsibility of the person in charge of the works to notify control who remove the overhead signs illumination when the carriageway is clear. He stated they had done. Myself and hundreds of other would beg to differ.
The theory behind smart motorways if fine, the actual day to day implementation is dire. It was 'sold' on the public by the fact that cameras would be monitored 24/7, covering the whole motorway. This may well be true in as much as a person sits with dozens of miles of motorways shown on screens...but how many screens can 1 person effectively watch? The system is flawed but I believe that the Govt accept a few deaths each year in exchange for better movement of vehicles (Money)
I don't know how to quote the above but it is from the FOI request Speedyguy attached. What utter rubbish. The system may well be designed to operate on a minute by minute basis but I've lost count of the number of times I've been on a section of motorway in the middle of the night with the limits at 60, 50 or 40 and nothing whatsover present. No collision. No HA vehicles, nothing.
I wrote to HE last Spring when I'd driven South on the M1 and got to a section where it went 4 into 1 lane...Lanes 1-3 were closed with the big red cross of doom, we all dutifully slowed and drove down lane 4. For perhaps 3 miles until we could see in the distance the 'de-restriction' sign. Perhaps half of drivers saw the sign in good time and made a sensible choice to realign with lane 1/2 etc. The other half were confused and stayed in lane 4, at about 45-50mph. It all became a bit dangerous (in my mirror) The reply from HE stated that some road works had taken place overnight but had been completed some time prior to my passing the location. It is the responsibility of the person in charge of the works to notify control who remove the overhead signs illumination when the carriageway is clear. He stated they had done. Myself and hundreds of other would beg to differ.
The theory behind smart motorways if fine, the actual day to day implementation is dire. It was 'sold' on the public by the fact that cameras would be monitored 24/7, covering the whole motorway. This may well be true in as much as a person sits with dozens of miles of motorways shown on screens...but how many screens can 1 person effectively watch? The system is flawed but I believe that the Govt accept a few deaths each year in exchange for better movement of vehicles (Money)
boristhebold said:
I don't know how to quote the above but it is from the FOI request Speedyguy attached.
I don't 
I just screenshot it and try to attach the pic With regards to the roadworks scenario even if done right, think about it.
Before smart motorways.
Van drives up hard shoulder puts hard signage up to say lane closed 1m, 500m etc etc it's not put in central res anymore to save carriageway crossings by staff running across lanes with big signs.
Then does the van reverse a couple of miles back up the hard shoulder ? OR drive several miles to the next junction then do the same on the other side then drive to the next junction to turn around then start setting the cones out, it all takes time and can only be done when the roads are quieter ie at night.
The policy years ago was to switch off overhead signage when the hard signage and closure/cones were in place. That seemed blatantly dangerous as many idiots didn't read/see the works and do roadworks incursions despite the tech being there to reinforce what's happening for balloon heads.
Break down companies not allowed to stop in live lanes to help you, even if red cross lit up.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-ne...
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-ne...
SlimJim16v said:
Break down companies not allowed to stop in live lanes to help you, even if red cross lit up.
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-ne...
Does that apply on dual carriageways?https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-ne...
If not why not as they are even more dangerous given the lack of signals and technology.
speedyguy said:
Does that apply on dual carriageways?
If not why not as they are even more dangerous given the lack of signals and technology.
Dual carriage ways usually have grass verges to pull off onto except areas like over and under bridges. Smart motorways have hard barriers for longer distances. If not why not as they are even more dangerous given the lack of signals and technology.
The safety conscious on PH: Speeding Kills regardless of how and where the car is driven, slow down.
The normal people on PH: speeding doesn’t kill, the bad driving and a bad driver does.
Safety conscious on PH: no we disagree.
Also:
The normal people on PH: Smart motorways kill.
The safety conscious on PH: Smart motorways do not kill, the bad driving and a bad driver does.
The normal people on PH: speeding doesn’t kill, the bad driving and a bad driver does.
Safety conscious on PH: no we disagree.
Also:
The normal people on PH: Smart motorways kill.
The safety conscious on PH: Smart motorways do not kill, the bad driving and a bad driver does.
Speedyguy
I think you're missing my point.
On Smart motorways we are supposed to be 'watched over'. I clearly remember the first M62 West Yorkshire section opening and local TV was in the control room looking at the camera/screen system telling the viewers that they'd be under video surveillance 24/7.
This 4 lane section with no hard shoulder is supposed to be monitored from a control room. There a breakdown in comms between the works supervisor, the control room and whoever was supposed to be watching that section. The guy who replied to me lied. Despite him being able to find out pretty easily that nothing untoward had happened on that section of motorway during the times I pointed out, he insisted that procedure had been followed. People in authority seem unable or unwilling to admit they screwed up...to the point that they'll lie. (They often come unstuck later on)
Motorists using bits like this when the powers that be screw up then start to ignore smart gantrys...."they're always wrong anyway"...hence the comments above about driving along at the posted limit of say 40 and having an Artic up your arse doing 60.
The idea is brilliant, the actual running of them leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps it's a case of saving money by having too few staff monitoring in control rooms ? (when they've spend hundreds of millions building the things)
Can I ask what line of work you're in. This subject seems to be close to your heart.
I think you're missing my point.
On Smart motorways we are supposed to be 'watched over'. I clearly remember the first M62 West Yorkshire section opening and local TV was in the control room looking at the camera/screen system telling the viewers that they'd be under video surveillance 24/7.
This 4 lane section with no hard shoulder is supposed to be monitored from a control room. There a breakdown in comms between the works supervisor, the control room and whoever was supposed to be watching that section. The guy who replied to me lied. Despite him being able to find out pretty easily that nothing untoward had happened on that section of motorway during the times I pointed out, he insisted that procedure had been followed. People in authority seem unable or unwilling to admit they screwed up...to the point that they'll lie. (They often come unstuck later on)
Motorists using bits like this when the powers that be screw up then start to ignore smart gantrys...."they're always wrong anyway"...hence the comments above about driving along at the posted limit of say 40 and having an Artic up your arse doing 60.
The idea is brilliant, the actual running of them leaves a lot to be desired. Perhaps it's a case of saving money by having too few staff monitoring in control rooms ? (when they've spend hundreds of millions building the things)
Can I ask what line of work you're in. This subject seems to be close to your heart.
boristhebold said:
Speedyguy
Can I ask what line of work you're in. This subject seems to be close to your heart.
I 'packed' in 3 years ago but am about to go back into Highways stuff.Can I ask what line of work you're in. This subject seems to be close to your heart.
Prior to packing in a did a few years in the office doing policy and adminy type stuff after several years working on the motorways.
I still meet up and chat to my old colleagues every few months and value their safety massively.
Chatting to some last month I was quite surprised that some of them actually felt safer working in/on managed motorways due to improved technology etc.
What other solutions do you have to make it safer apart from addressing driver behaviour and the idiosyncrasies of the general public who have a habit of driving into things in front of them whether live lane or on the hard shoulder?
Solutions ? I don't have any...but the Smart motorway doing away with a hard shoulder isn't one either obviously. I cannot find figures for deaths on hard shoulders and don't pretend that they are safe places but they are far safer than a live running lane. If they are going to persist with these live running lanes, at least have sufficient staff in control rooms to identify issues quickly and put up that red X.
The future has to include driver education. (I'd go as far as to have 10 yearly assessment drives for all motorists incl motorways and a chat about day to day issues you might encounter)
The future has to include driver education. (I'd go as far as to have 10 yearly assessment drives for all motorists incl motorways and a chat about day to day issues you might encounter)
I've caught up with the entire thread and there seems to be a breadth of experience amongst the posters to sufficiently concern me about smart motorways. I experienced them last year on the M1 onto the M25 ACW and was puzzled by the late Sunday night speed changes when there was no apparent cause, save for a vehicle in a lay by tucked right out of the watch, at one point over the breadth of the speed controlled stretch. It was bizarre and frustrating as it simply impedes progress.
Nevertheless, the risks seem real and also concerning. I would hate to have a puncture and have to get the children, wife and mother in law/mother, out of the car, then dog around under the floor of the estate boot for the warning triangle. I have read three minutes at best and seventeen minutes at worst for a response to shut the lane correctly. Given the wrong conditions (dark/stormy/foggy etc) it's quite concerning and perhaps not worth the trade off for better progress and congestion easing.
Nevertheless, the risks seem real and also concerning. I would hate to have a puncture and have to get the children, wife and mother in law/mother, out of the car, then dog around under the floor of the estate boot for the warning triangle. I have read three minutes at best and seventeen minutes at worst for a response to shut the lane correctly. Given the wrong conditions (dark/stormy/foggy etc) it's quite concerning and perhaps not worth the trade off for better progress and congestion easing.
bolidemichael said:
I've caught up with the entire thread and there seems to be a breadth of experience amongst the posters to sufficiently concern me about smart motorways. I experienced them last year on the M1 onto the M25 ACW and was puzzled by the late Sunday night speed changes when there was no apparent cause, save for a vehicle in a lay by tucked right out of the watch, at one point over the breadth of the speed controlled stretch. It was bizarre and frustrating as it simply impedes progress.
Nevertheless, the risks seem real and also concerning. I would hate to have a puncture and have to get the children, wife and mother in law/mother, out of the car, then dog around under the floor of the estate boot for the warning triangle. I have read three minutes at best and seventeen minutes at worst for a response to shut the lane correctly. Given the wrong conditions (dark/stormy/foggy etc) it's quite concerning and perhaps not worth the trade off for better progress and congestion easing.
I know. It seems very strange that in these elfin-safe-tea times someone would see this as a great idea.Nevertheless, the risks seem real and also concerning. I would hate to have a puncture and have to get the children, wife and mother in law/mother, out of the car, then dog around under the floor of the estate boot for the warning triangle. I have read three minutes at best and seventeen minutes at worst for a response to shut the lane correctly. Given the wrong conditions (dark/stormy/foggy etc) it's quite concerning and perhaps not worth the trade off for better progress and congestion easing.
You are expected to wear a hi-viz vest, hard hat and safety glasses to work alone on a scaffold, but you are expected to get out of your car in a live lane.
One major problem that I noticed when I used the M1 a couple of nights ago. With no lights on the motorway, if there had been a stationary car round the bend with no lights, it would be "Good Night Vienna". I was wondering why so many were not using lane one - I assumed it was poor driving, but after a few miles, I joined them. I returned to lane one in the lit sections, and so did a few of the others on the road.
news article
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51236375
On Panorama tomorrow (Monday 27 Jan)
Pretty damning when the Minister who gave the go ahead says he was misled about how they would be rolled out.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51236375
On Panorama tomorrow (Monday 27 Jan)
Pretty damning when the Minister who gave the go ahead says he was misled about how they would be rolled out.
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