Fined for taking a 4 year old out of school
Discussion
A four year old could well be of compulsory school age. A child starts school in the September if they were 4 on or before 1st July.
https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/publications/schoo...
My son's birthday is in June so he was 4 yrs and about 9 weeks when he started school
https://www.education-ni.gov.uk/publications/schoo...
My son's birthday is in June so he was 4 yrs and about 9 weeks when he started school
That is Norn Ireland, some rules are slightly different over here.
Our eldest was a July 4 year old so started at 4yr 2 months. Our youngest had some other issues and started at 5 yr 1 months. You need to see why the school are fining you (or is it the LA - seems quite quick).
Our kids have had to have a lot of time out due to family issues abroad, school are fine, LA send a default fine notice, we tell LA where to go. Actually got worse in the last years as the kids span junior / secondary and guess what the holidays for the schools don't co-incide, so when booking childcare / holidays we now ask the LA which will be the cheaper fine as one way or another one child will miss some school whilst we go to relatives over the water. Not fined yet.
A fried in Salford when his kids school went on strike sued the LA for the same "fine" rate per day that the school was closed. He got paid on the promise he didn't go to the press. Once paid, he went to the press. School paid out a lot, though, at Phils bequest, all parents that could afford it did pay the money back to the school to prevent their kids education being harmed. Principles innit, and moral, that is what school should be taughting kids.
Our eldest was a July 4 year old so started at 4yr 2 months. Our youngest had some other issues and started at 5 yr 1 months. You need to see why the school are fining you (or is it the LA - seems quite quick).
Our kids have had to have a lot of time out due to family issues abroad, school are fine, LA send a default fine notice, we tell LA where to go. Actually got worse in the last years as the kids span junior / secondary and guess what the holidays for the schools don't co-incide, so when booking childcare / holidays we now ask the LA which will be the cheaper fine as one way or another one child will miss some school whilst we go to relatives over the water. Not fined yet.
A fried in Salford when his kids school went on strike sued the LA for the same "fine" rate per day that the school was closed. He got paid on the promise he didn't go to the press. Once paid, he went to the press. School paid out a lot, though, at Phils bequest, all parents that could afford it did pay the money back to the school to prevent their kids education being harmed. Principles innit, and moral, that is what school should be taughting kids.
StanleyT said:
That is Norn Ireland, some rules are slightly different over here.
Our eldest was a July 4 year old so started at 4yr 2 months. Our youngest had some other issues and started at 5 yr 1 months. You need to see why the school are fining you (or is it the LA - seems quite quick).
Our kids have had to have a lot of time out due to family issues abroad, school are fine, LA send a default fine notice, we tell LA where to go. Actually got worse in the last years as the kids span junior / secondary and guess what the holidays for the schools don't co-incide, so when booking childcare / holidays we now ask the LA which will be the cheaper fine as one way or another one child will miss some school whilst we go to relatives over the water. Not fined yet.
A fried in Salford when his kids school went on strike sued the LA for the same "fine" rate per day that the school was closed. He got paid on the promise he didn't go to the press. Once paid, he went to the press. School paid out a lot, though, at Phils bequest, all parents that could afford it did pay the money back to the school to prevent their kids education being harmed. Principles innit, and moral, that is what school should be taughting kids.
That sounds like a bit of a tall tale, are you sure he wasn’t pulling your leg, or do you have links to the actual story?Our eldest was a July 4 year old so started at 4yr 2 months. Our youngest had some other issues and started at 5 yr 1 months. You need to see why the school are fining you (or is it the LA - seems quite quick).
Our kids have had to have a lot of time out due to family issues abroad, school are fine, LA send a default fine notice, we tell LA where to go. Actually got worse in the last years as the kids span junior / secondary and guess what the holidays for the schools don't co-incide, so when booking childcare / holidays we now ask the LA which will be the cheaper fine as one way or another one child will miss some school whilst we go to relatives over the water. Not fined yet.
A fried in Salford when his kids school went on strike sued the LA for the same "fine" rate per day that the school was closed. He got paid on the promise he didn't go to the press. Once paid, he went to the press. School paid out a lot, though, at Phils bequest, all parents that could afford it did pay the money back to the school to prevent their kids education being harmed. Principles innit, and moral, that is what school should be taughting kids.
surveyor_101 said:
Ok so friend of a friend has been fined as their 4 year old missed their first week of school.
The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
I always thought you are correct and it was only compulsory for a 5 year old + to be in school. The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
'Your child is of ʺcompulsory school ageʺ on the 1st January, 1st April or 1st September following their 5th birthday'
Edited by poo at Paul's on Monday 17th September 22:37
James_B said:
Sounds fair enough, once they’ve enrolled them they need to follow the rules. The disruption is not lessened just because school is not compulsory at that age.
Because schools offer a well rounded life experience 
or are a battery farm for kids based on usually coached academic resultsThe rules are pathetic and need to be used with sense. Something sadly lacking in schools/teachers/education.
StanleyT said:
A fried in Salford when his kids school went on strike sued the LA for the same "fine" rate per day that the school was closed. He got paid on the promise he didn't go to the press. Once paid, he went to the press. School paid out a lot, though, at Phils bequest, all parents that could afford it did pay the money back to the school to prevent their kids education being harmed. Principles innit, and moral, that is what school should be taughting kids.
Yes, that really happened. Oh, my mistake, actually it didn't. surveyor_101 said:
Ok so friend of a friend has been fined as their 4 year old missed their first week of school.
The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
So they realised the child is now old enough for school so they would no longer have to pay childcare so decided the child would start, but then realised they didn’t want to pay school holiday charges for a holiday, so decided he should start a week late rather than when the school were expecting him. Sound about right?The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
While the child may not be of compulsory school age, once you’ve committed to starting at the beginning of a term (I’m pretty sure you can only start them at the start of a term) then that child must attend. Taking them out for. Holiday for the first week would definitely trigger a fine. You can argue that’s not right, but the rules have been applied correctly.
surveyor_101 said:
Ok so friend of a friend has been fined as their 4 year old missed their first week of school.
The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
Couple of random googles for youThe child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25726538
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-commit...
http://www.home-education.org.uk/articles/legal-cs...
If what you have been told is actually correct & they're in the UK then I'd suggest they need to speak to a legal professional who has knowledge of educational matters or their MP.
This is an interesting one, so I looked at it further.
Now I would have *thought* that what the above poster said was correct - i.e. if a child was registered at a school, regardless of age, then the penalties for deliberate absence would apply.
But looking at the DFE guidance, we find this (latest version - updated Jan 2017)
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
which says
(a) "Parenting contracts, orders and penalty notices for irregular attendance apply only to pupils of compulsory school age who are registered at a school." and (b) "Penalty notices are fines of £60/£120 imposed on parents. They are an alternative to the prosecution of parents for failing to ensure that their child of compulsory school age regularly attends the school where they are registered"
which suggests that fines can't be levied on parents taking a child below the compulsory age out of school.
Incidentally, when the OP says there's no right of appeal against a penalty notice, they're right - there isn't. However it looks like this one might have been misapplied.
Now I would have *thought* that what the above poster said was correct - i.e. if a child was registered at a school, regardless of age, then the penalties for deliberate absence would apply.
But looking at the DFE guidance, we find this (latest version - updated Jan 2017)
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
which says
(a) "Parenting contracts, orders and penalty notices for irregular attendance apply only to pupils of compulsory school age who are registered at a school." and (b) "Penalty notices are fines of £60/£120 imposed on parents. They are an alternative to the prosecution of parents for failing to ensure that their child of compulsory school age regularly attends the school where they are registered"
which suggests that fines can't be levied on parents taking a child below the compulsory age out of school.
Incidentally, when the OP says there's no right of appeal against a penalty notice, they're right - there isn't. However it looks like this one might have been misapplied.
Chester draws said:
When I looked at doing this the rule was something like 90% attendance required in every rolling 10 week period.
If yours is the same how can it be triggered if they've only had 1 week off?
If they have first week off and then miss another day then they'd be over the threshold.
Aiui, having been tipped the wink by the headmistress, you can be fined for missing more than 8 sessions (ie 4 days) in a 12 week period.If yours is the same how can it be triggered if they've only had 1 week off?
If they have first week off and then miss another day then they'd be over the threshold.
ThunderSpook said:
So they realised the child is now old enough for school so they would no longer have to pay childcare so decided the child would start, but then realised they didn’t want to pay school holiday charges for a holiday, so decided he should start a week late rather than when the school were expecting him. Sound about right?
While the child may not be of compulsory school age, once you’ve committed to starting at the beginning of a term (I’m pretty sure you can only start them at the start of a term) then that child must attend. Taking them out for. Holiday for the first week would definitely trigger a fine. You can argue that’s not right, but the rules have been applied correctly.
Harsh but fair.While the child may not be of compulsory school age, once you’ve committed to starting at the beginning of a term (I’m pretty sure you can only start them at the start of a term) then that child must attend. Taking them out for. Holiday for the first week would definitely trigger a fine. You can argue that’s not right, but the rules have been applied correctly.
No doubt Op’s friend’s friend took the 4 year old to various cultural educational historical venues where they learnt FAR more than they would have in Reception class.....
surveyor_101 said:
Ok so friend of a friend has been fined as their 4 year old missed their first week of school.
The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
There is no appeal, which seems an odd process. The child is 4 and not of complusory so I can’t see how they can be fined?
They have been told they cannot appeal as well.
Being 4 they don't have to be at school, but once enrolled I think they can be fined (or the school/LA might just be doing it automatically)
While they won't miss anything of note in any single week of foundation (we took our daughter out for a few days), the first week is pretty key for integration and adjustment.
If they read the regs posted on the thread and if the fine should not have been applied - then they could ask for it to be set aside/cancelled rather than an appeal.
Edited by Vaud on Tuesday 18th September 14:30
They cannot issue a fine and you cannot be prosecuted, because schooling is not compulsory until the start of the term after the 5th birthday.
OTOH I have primary school aged kids and in the admin department, both the school and the LA.... well they are a bit clueless. I can see how you could have an automated fine sent out even when there is no basis for it. The first step should be to point out your child is 4 and ask them to withdraw the fine. I definitely would not pay it even if you have cash burning a hole in your wallet, as then it will be on your record that you have been fined for non-attendance.
OTOH I have primary school aged kids and in the admin department, both the school and the LA.... well they are a bit clueless. I can see how you could have an automated fine sent out even when there is no basis for it. The first step should be to point out your child is 4 and ask them to withdraw the fine. I definitely would not pay it even if you have cash burning a hole in your wallet, as then it will be on your record that you have been fined for non-attendance.
creampuff said:
They cannot issue a fine and you cannot be prosecuted, because schooling is not compulsory until the start of the term after the 5th birthday.
OTOH I have primary school aged kids and in the admin department, both the school and the LA.... well they are a bit clueless. I can see how you could have an automated fine sent out even when there is no basis for it. The first step should be to point out your child is 4 and ask them to withdraw the fine.
Here we go:OTOH I have primary school aged kids and in the admin department, both the school and the LA.... well they are a bit clueless. I can see how you could have an automated fine sent out even when there is no basis for it. The first step should be to point out your child is 4 and ask them to withdraw the fine.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Parenting contracts, parenting orders and penalty notices are interventions available to
promote better school attendance and behaviour. Good behaviour and attendance are
essential to children’s educational prospects. These measures are permissive and it is for
individual governing bodies and local authorities to decide whether to use them. In
exercising these powers governing bodies, head teachers and local authority officers
should have regard to their safeguarding duties1
.
[b]Parenting contracts, orders and penalty notices for irregular attendance apply only to
pupils of compulsory school age who are registered at a school.[/b]
So school will mark it as an unauthorised absence, but can't fine you.
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