Charge for trespassing?
Discussion
I've read many times on here that you can't stick a sign on your drive saying that if anyone parks there you will charge them £100 for parking, and then enforce the charge. If someone does park on your drive and causes no damage, just an inconvenience, then there's little you can do.
In that case, is this sign enforceable? On a building site in Manchester. Genuine pre-estimate of loss?
In that case, is this sign enforceable? On a building site in Manchester. Genuine pre-estimate of loss?
speedking31 said:
I've read many times on here that you can't stick a sign on your drive saying that if anyone parks there you will charge them £100 for parking, and then enforce the charge. If someone does park on your drive and causes no damage, just an inconvenience, then there's little you can do.
In that case, is this sign enforceable? On a building site in Manchester. Genuine pre-estimate of loss?
I'm sure someone who is actually legally qualified would provide better advice, but I'd be very surprised if that was supported by any law. I'm sure they could sue someone for their costs for damages and inspection, but I doubt there is any fixed penalty available to them.In that case, is this sign enforceable? On a building site in Manchester. Genuine pre-estimate of loss?
I suspect that's just to scare the type of idiot who'd actually do that. Which is ironic, as usually they're also the type of idiot without funds to pay any 'fines' anyway.
Looking at it both ways
It is civel trespass and damages can only be got throught the court system
Whether or not the 5k crane fee can be justified i know not
However two cases on the Railway system, 1 historic, 1 possible
In both instance young scamps broke into/entered by no legal authority,, set foot uninvited and without permission..in effect trespassing onto railway property
Both times the silly b
ds got on the roof of the trains and were hit by 25kv,and 'luckily'' survived
The courts decided in the trespassers favour when they sued NR or whoever and won because in the courts view 'for not making their premises secure'
Now go figure that out.
It is civel trespass and damages can only be got throught the court system
Whether or not the 5k crane fee can be justified i know not
However two cases on the Railway system, 1 historic, 1 possible
In both instance young scamps broke into/entered by no legal authority,, set foot uninvited and without permission..in effect trespassing onto railway property
Both times the silly b
ds got on the roof of the trains and were hit by 25kv,and 'luckily'' survivedThe courts decided in the trespassers favour when they sued NR or whoever and won because in the courts view 'for not making their premises secure'
Now go figure that out.
speedking31 said:
Genuine pre-estimate of loss?
Can you imagine the backlash if a crane collapsed, and the site management said "Oh, yeh, we knew somebody had been climbing on it and fking about with it, but we didn't want to hold the work up while we checked it..."How much could a lost day's work cost, especially if it's coming up towards any penalty costs due to delays?
We have a similar sign on the cranes on our sites. If a crane is interfered with it has to be inspected in some detail, what if a bolt has been deliberately loosened etc. An inspection means cost of the professional to carry out the inspection, and loss of working time on site etc. Our small sites have LADS of £8k per week, our larger sites £20k per week. £5000 sounds like it could be a genuine pre-estimate of loss. Even so the point of the sign is mainly a deterrent.
Obviously the builder has to keep the site secure, but some people are very determined.
Obviously the builder has to keep the site secure, but some people are very determined.
silverfoxcc said:
Looking at it both ways
It is civel trespass and damages can only be got throught the court system
Whether or not the 5k crane fee can be justified i know not
However two cases on the Railway system, 1 historic, 1 possible
In both instance young scamps broke into/entered by no legal authority,, set foot uninvited and without permission..in effect trespassing onto railway property
Both times the silly bds got on the roof of the trains and were hit by 25kv,and 'luckily'' survived
The courts decided in the trespassers favour when they sued NR or whoever and won because in the courts view 'for not making their premises secure'
Now go figure that out.
Most railway property is covered by legislation (primary or secondary) rather than the common law, so probably not directly comparable.It is civel trespass and damages can only be got throught the court system
Whether or not the 5k crane fee can be justified i know not
However two cases on the Railway system, 1 historic, 1 possible
In both instance young scamps broke into/entered by no legal authority,, set foot uninvited and without permission..in effect trespassing onto railway property
Both times the silly b
ds got on the roof of the trains and were hit by 25kv,and 'luckily'' survivedThe courts decided in the trespassers favour when they sued NR or whoever and won because in the courts view 'for not making their premises secure'
Now go figure that out.
silverfoxcc said:
Looking at it both ways
It is civel trespass and damages can only be got throught the court system
Whether or not the 5k crane fee can be justified i know not
However two cases on the Railway system, 1 historic, 1 possible
In both instance young scamps broke into/entered by no legal authority,, set foot uninvited and without permission..in effect trespassing onto railway property
Both times the silly bds got on the roof of the trains and were hit by 25kv,and 'luckily'' survived
The courts decided in the trespassers favour when they sued NR or whoever and won because in the courts view 'for not making their premises secure'
Now go figure that out.
Links?It is civel trespass and damages can only be got throught the court system
Whether or not the 5k crane fee can be justified i know not
However two cases on the Railway system, 1 historic, 1 possible
In both instance young scamps broke into/entered by no legal authority,, set foot uninvited and without permission..in effect trespassing onto railway property
Both times the silly b
ds got on the roof of the trains and were hit by 25kv,and 'luckily'' survivedThe courts decided in the trespassers favour when they sued NR or whoever and won because in the courts view 'for not making their premises secure'
Now go figure that out.
In any case you're talking about liability for injury to the scrotes: not damages in favour of the landowner for the trespass.
Furthermore, on railway property trespass is a criminal offence, not a civil tort, and has been for well over 150 years.
If the railway fails to take adequate steps* to prevent the trespass it is liable.
That was decided by the HoL (on appeal) in BRB v Herrington in 1972.
It led to a Law Commission report - https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/lawcom-prod-sto...
The outcome of that was the Occupiers' Liability Act 1984.
* The BRB lost because it had failed to mantain its fencing.
That can't be your historic case though because it was a third rail DC line, not 25kV overhead.
Your possible case might be this one - https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-new...
Another fencing issue. If the claimants can prove that the defendants were aware of the defective fence and failed to repair it they are likely to win.
Here's a current (sorry) example of a rail operator being prosecuted for not securing access to the railway where a child was severely injured by an 25Kv overhead line. Ongoing so they might not be guilty but given the madness of this country I'd be surprised if they get off.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-ne...
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-ne...
This could be the gate which doesn't lock properly.
Any kid with a bit of gumption could circumventd that fence as well.
https://goo.gl/maps/rPsXGd9z56L2
The yard entrance picture in the article is about 170 yards down the same road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zjj9hUmPCUR2
Not sure where the one without any gate is though.
Any kid with a bit of gumption could circumventd that fence as well.
https://goo.gl/maps/rPsXGd9z56L2
The yard entrance picture in the article is about 170 yards down the same road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zjj9hUmPCUR2
Not sure where the one without any gate is though.
as long as you leave when requested, and don't do any physical damage, I believe that you can't be 'charged' for trespass.
You certainly can't be fined privately for it - see also why clamping was stopped.
I am friendly and help out with a number of base jumpers - they are often caught, and have this conversation with Plod.
At no point have any of them been charged with anything.
You certainly can't be fined privately for it - see also why clamping was stopped.
I am friendly and help out with a number of base jumpers - they are often caught, and have this conversation with Plod.
At no point have any of them been charged with anything.
The Selfish Gene said:
as long as you leave when requested, and don't do any physical damage, I believe that you can't be 'charged' for trespass.
You certainly can't be fined privately for it - see also why clamping was stopped.
I am friendly and help out with a number of base jumpers - they are often caught, and have this conversation with Plod.
At no point have any of them been charged with anything.
probably because trespass is a civil offence and not a criminal oneYou certainly can't be fined privately for it - see also why clamping was stopped.
I am friendly and help out with a number of base jumpers - they are often caught, and have this conversation with Plod.
At no point have any of them been charged with anything.
Red Devil said:
This could be the gate which doesn't lock properly.
Any kid with a bit of gumption could circumventd that fence as well.
https://goo.gl/maps/rPsXGd9z56L2
The yard entrance picture in the article is about 170 yards down the same road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zjj9hUmPCUR2
Not sure where the one without any gate is though.
Tyne Yard is quite easy to gain access to. As well the entrance of Smithy Lane you can gain access for about a mile before it goes over the bridge at Lamesley RoadAny kid with a bit of gumption could circumventd that fence as well.
https://goo.gl/maps/rPsXGd9z56L2
The yard entrance picture in the article is about 170 yards down the same road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zjj9hUmPCUR2
Not sure where the one without any gate is though.
Edited by pavarotti1980 on Wednesday 19th September 13:31
Edited by pavarotti1980 on Wednesday 19th September 13:32
aren't they playing a dangerous game with this one?
If I climb over that fence with enough wodges of rolled up £50 notes in my bag to do whatever it is someone might want to climb a crane for, am i a trespasser, or a customer? What about if I don't have any cash, but had a chance to see the sign and am deemed to have accepted its term?
Presumably if i was a trespasser thier duty of care is a lot more limited than if I was allowed to be there.
If I climb over that fence with enough wodges of rolled up £50 notes in my bag to do whatever it is someone might want to climb a crane for, am i a trespasser, or a customer? What about if I don't have any cash, but had a chance to see the sign and am deemed to have accepted its term?
Presumably if i was a trespasser thier duty of care is a lot more limited than if I was allowed to be there.
ging84 said:
aren't they playing a dangerous game with this one?
If I climb over that fence with enough wodges of rolled up £50 notes in my bag to do whatever it is someone might want to climb a crane for, am i a trespasser, or a customer? What about if I don't have any cash, but had a chance to see the sign and am deemed to have accepted its term?
Presumably if i was a trespasser thier duty of care is a lot more limited than if I was allowed to be there.
What sort of 'customer' would be climbing a crane. Bundles of £50's or not?If I climb over that fence with enough wodges of rolled up £50 notes in my bag to do whatever it is someone might want to climb a crane for, am i a trespasser, or a customer? What about if I don't have any cash, but had a chance to see the sign and am deemed to have accepted its term?
Presumably if i was a trespasser thier duty of care is a lot more limited than if I was allowed to be there.
pavarotti1980 said:
Red Devil said:
This could be the gate which doesn't lock properly.
Any kid with a bit of gumption could circumventd that fence as well.
https://goo.gl/maps/rPsXGd9z56L2
The yard entrance picture in the article is about 170 yards down the same road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zjj9hUmPCUR2
Not sure where the one without any gate is though.
Tyne Yard is quite easy to gain access to. As well the entrance of Smithy Lane you can gain access for about a mile before it goes over the bridge at Lamesley RoadAny kid with a bit of gumption could circumventd that fence as well.
https://goo.gl/maps/rPsXGd9z56L2
The yard entrance picture in the article is about 170 yards down the same road.
https://goo.gl/maps/Zjj9hUmPCUR2
Not sure where the one without any gate is though.
How would they get past it (unless it was unlocked/open)?
The fence at the foot of the embankment doesn't seem very substantial though - https://goo.gl/maps/D9tyVseS4BB2
Red Devil said:
Just curious, but AFAICS the Smithy Lane entrance to the yard leads to this gate - https://goo.gl/maps/KvjQs2HuwaG2
How would they get past it (unless it was unlocked/open)?
The fence at the foot of the embankment doesn't seem very substantial though - https://goo.gl/maps/D9tyVseS4BB2
You could easily access it from the minor road parallel to Smithy Lane as the fence is a bit sHow would they get past it (unless it was unlocked/open)?
The fence at the foot of the embankment doesn't seem very substantial though - https://goo.gl/maps/D9tyVseS4BB2
t. Probably from repeated trespassing. Also easily accessed further south of the main building too. ElectricPics said:
Here's a current (sorry) example of a rail operator being prosecuted for not securing access to the railway where a child was severely injured by an 25Kv overhead line. Ongoing so they might not be guilty but given the madness of this country I'd be surprised if they get off.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-ne...
I have a lot of sympathy for the kids and the prosecution on this one. Kids will play and it seems like it was a known playing spot which you could just walk up to without crossing a barrier. Only this playing spot has a 25,000 volt electrical line nearby. https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-ne...
DurianIceCream said:
I have a lot of sympathy for the kids and the prosecution on this one. Kids will play and it seems like it was a known playing spot which you could just walk up to without crossing a barrier. Only this playing spot has a 25,000 volt electrical line nearby.
If they are being prosecuted then it is more likely to be some kind of HSE type prosecution not for trespassing i think?Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff