A Royal Commission into the police

[ghe13rte]

Greendubber said:

ghe13rte said:

One of the commissions jobs should be to look at pay. I don’t recall soldiers, sailors and airpersons getting overtime when the worked longer than a single shift.

Why shouldn't police officers get paid overtime?

Is it just cops, what about other professions?

In a review it could be an option to make the terms of service for the police similar to the armed forces, same for fire and ambulance. Why not?

Just because "...we've always done it like that..." isn't a reason not to make the terms of service change or at least consider it.

What makes it OK for a serviceman to spend 4 or 6 months in action for the same or similar pay as his equivalent ranks are getting for working 9-5 arranging flowers around the parade ground?

If we need 200 police officers to search for a missing child why are the CC's having to think twice and say "...we can't afford the overtime to investigate that, erm, send half a dozen and make the best of it..."

[Derek Smith]

ghe13rte said:

In a review it could be an option to make the terms of service for the police similar to the armed forces, same for fire and ambulance. Why not?

Just because "...we've always done it like that..." isn't a reason not to make the terms of service change or at least consider it.

What makes it OK for a serviceman to spend 4 or 6 months in action for the same or similar pay as his equivalent ranks are getting for working 9-5 arranging flowers around the parade ground?

If we need 200 police officers to search for a missing child why are the CC's having to think twice and say "...we can't afford the overtime to investigate that, erm, send half a dozen and make the best of it..."

Why do you compare the police to the armed forces? There is no similarity.

The present government cut agreed conditions for officers 'at a stroke', with no negotiation. You, it seems, want even more.

[Greendubber]

ghe13rte said:

Greendubber said:

ghe13rte said:

One of the commissions jobs should be to look at pay. I don’t recall soldiers, sailors and airpersons getting overtime when the worked longer than a single shift.

Why shouldn't police officers get paid overtime?

Is it just cops, what about other professions?

In a review it could be an option to make the terms of service for the police similar to the armed forces, same for fire and ambulance. Why not?

Just because "...we've always done it like that..." isn't a reason not to make the terms of service change or at least consider it.

What makes it OK for a serviceman to spend 4 or 6 months in action for the same or similar pay as his equivalent ranks are getting for working 9-5 arranging flowers around the parade ground?

If we need 200 police officers to search for a missing child why are the CC's having to think twice and say "...we can't afford the overtime to investigate that, erm, send half a dozen and make the best of it..."

When people sign up to the armed forces going off for 4 or 6 months is part and parcel of it, it's part of the job. If someones getting paid to arrange flowers about a parade ground it sounds like an army problem to me and it's nothing to do with anyone else. Done like it? don't join up then.

Police officer have contracted hours for a working week, if they work over they're entitled to pay for the hours worked. It's a completely different situation to the armed forces.

With regard to your missing child scenario, let's hear an example of that ever happening. In 12 years of policing I have never heard of anyone questioning any budget when searching for a missing child. Look at April Jones, the biggest search operation ever, no worries about budget there, it carried on until the job was done.

Edited by Greendubber on Tuesday 25th September 21:06

[FredClogs]

Front line public service as a whole have been nailed to the floor over the last 8 years, Policing, the fire and ambulance services, social Work, education and NHS funding have all failed to keep pace with inflation and increased demand. I'm not sure policing is a special case nor that it requires a special investigation. The answer would seem pretty obvious, increase funding, increase numbers of active police officers and take pressure off front line demands.

I think its rather trite to continually trot out things that aren't the role of police... I'm not sure that what the police need or want is a prescribed list of things they can or can't get involved in, there should how ever be specialised resources within the force staffed by people who want to be doing what they're doing, and not spending half they're day moaning about what they are being asked to do (but isn't that just having a job).

[Greendubber]

Theresa May said 'Crime, nothing more nothing less' nice idea in theory but not actually happening.

It's a great shame that most of the police time is spent not dealing with actual crime. Missing people, baby sitting mental health patients, picking up the slack from social services etc. We have specialised teams dealing with those things but that means officers are taken from other areas of policing so they start to fail.

It's an absolute mess as the police are held to account when the original service that batted it to them can just shrug their shoulders and leave the plod to it.

[Red 4]

Derek Smith said:

ghe13rte said:

In a review it could be an option to make the terms of service for the police similar to the armed forces, same for fire and ambulance. Why not?

Just because "...we've always done it like that..." isn't a reason not to make the terms of service change or at least consider it.

What makes it OK for a serviceman to spend 4 or 6 months in action for the same or similar pay as his equivalent ranks are getting for working 9-5 arranging flowers around the parade ground?

If we need 200 police officers to search for a missing child why are the CC's having to think twice and say "...we can't afford the overtime to investigate that, erm, send half a dozen and make the best of it..."

Why do you compare the police to the armed forces? There is no similarity.

The present government cut agreed conditions for officers 'at a stroke', with no negotiation. You, it seems, want even more.

Sounds like ghe13rte wants a Gendarmerie type force.
Gendarmes are part of the French armed forces and undertake varied police duties.

But France also has the Police Nationale.
And double the number of police compared to the UK (for a similar size population).

So there's your answer then - throw money at the police (you've got more chance of meeting Elvis in your local Sainsburys).

[Cat]

ghe13rte said:

What makes it OK for a serviceman to spend 4 or 6 months in action for the same or similar pay as his equivalent ranks are getting for working 9-5 arranging flowers around the parade ground?

That would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that service personnel get paid various allowances when deployed operationally or overseas.

Cat

[andy_s]

Cat said:

ghe13rte said:

What makes it OK for a serviceman to spend 4 or 6 months in action for the same or similar pay as his equivalent ranks are getting for working 9-5 arranging flowers around the parade ground?

That would be a good point if it wasn't for the fact that service personnel get paid various allowances when deployed operationally or overseas.

Cat

...And that there is as much similarity between the police and the army as jockeys to chefs.

[Red 4]

andy_s said:

...And that there is as much similarity between the police and the army as jockeys to chefs.

Depends - that certainly is not the case elsewhere in Europe.

See the Gendarmerie in France (in addition to the Police Nationale and Police Municipale) and Carabinieri in Italy (in addition to the Polizia and provincial and municipal police) for example.

No idea if they get paid overtime though !

[andy_s]

Red 4 said:

andy_s said:

...And that there is as much similarity between the police and the army as jockeys to chefs.

Depends - that certainly is not the case elsewhere in Europe.

See the Gendarmerie in France (in addition to the Police Nationale and Police Municipale) and Carabinieri in Italy (in addition to the Polizia and provincial and municipal police) for example.

No idea if they get paid overtime though !

Spain too - it's strange the way the Europeans have evolved their police, but we only have the one (or at least not a distinct paramilitary style organisation under control of a different ministry) - I knew the French system fairly well and they used to get plenty of OT in the Gendarmerie but not so much in the Police, of course nowadays you have plod, Gendarmes and Squaddies on the street since the rash of attacks. I guess it's all very well delineated and coordinated, but it always seemed a bit odd to me [unsurprisingly I guess!]..

[Red 4]

The weirdest thing about the police in France was seeing groups of CRS rollerblading around the Eiffel Tower !

No idea if they still do that but it kinda detracted from the macho image !

Steps/ stairs also appeared to be a bit of an issue

Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 25th September 23:51

[andy_s]

Red 4 said:

The weirdest thing about the police in France was seeing groups of CRS rollerblading around the Eiffel Tower !

No idea if they still do that but it kinda detracted from the macho image !

Steps/ stairs also appeared to be a bit of an issue

Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 25th September 23:51

Even weirder is that the Parisian Fire Brigade is also an Army unit under MinDef! [but operationally under the Police(?) day to day].

[Derek Smith]

A bit from the 'other side':

I was on holiday in the Lake District. Someone fell overboard and was missing. There was a note put up asking for volunteers to search the foreshore the following morning. The local bobby arrived, dressed in waxproofs, wellingtons and walking a spaniel, and he divided the crowd into groups. He asked how many policemen (his word) were there and three of us, all on holiday, put up our hands. We were placed in charge of groups. I had three in mine. So a quarter of the volunteers were off duty bobbies.

The local guy, as you would expect, found the body. Chatting to him afterwards, he asked me about my dog, a Bouviere, I mentioned his stylish uniform. He said that he was on rest day.

There was a serious crime. The SIO mentioned that there was no overtime. No one cried off. 12/14 hours shifts are required in the first few hours of such an incident and we had officers sleeping at the nick. The SIO brought a little bed and spent the first four days at the nick. As an inspector, he got no overtime.

The idea that bobbies are clock-watchers might be true for some, but not the majority.

[Red 4]

andy_s said:

Even weirder is that the Parisian Fire Brigade is also an Army unit under MinDef! [but operationally under the Police(?) day to day].

... And even weirder still is that the French firemen (including Paris) have a history of fighting with the CRS during protests over pay and conditions.

Likewise in Belgium and Spain !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-N8LDCT-OE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-N8LDCT-OE

[Derek Smith]

Red 4 said:

... And even weirder still is that the French firemen (including Paris) have a history of fighting with the CRS during protests over pay and conditions.

Likewise in Belgium and Spain !

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-N8LDCT-OE

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5-N8LDCT-OE

In the New Cross/Lewisham riots of 77(?) there were firemen involved on the 'other side'. At least one was from our local station and often 'boasted' of the fact. Rumours were they'd organised a coach.

[geeks]

Whilst I don't believe it is the full solution I have signed as I think it is a good avenue towards opening up the story/debate/review/whatever needs to be done to get this sorted!

/minor rant/

I have a big problem with the way the Police in the country are regarded, they are commonly referred to as pigs, the filth and terms that get progressively worse but they are the first people we as a populous call when we are in the st!
I have had multiple dealings with them over my lifetime from being on the wrong side of them (as a tear away teen rather than anything serious aka boys will be boys) to being on the right/other side of things, they have bought me bad news (my BIL taking his own life) as well as good news (we found your car) and closure (you car was written off).
Another example when our cat was shot with an air rifle. The whole incident was taken very seriously, an officer visited and took a statement, a sergeant followed up with us and for a couple of months our local community team popped their heads over the gates to see how the cat was recovering and to check we were ok.
From where I sit they provide an undervalued service and often unenviable task list of bad things. Their image could do with some work, their are some bad eggs I am not so naive to think that all in the force are angels, some are in it for the power, some are in to serve but they are at least all in.
I don't know what the solution is, I don't pretend to but I do know I will support them where I can!

[Derek Smith]

geeks said:

Whilst I don't believe it is the full solution I have signed as I think it is a good avenue towards opening up the story/debate/review/whatever needs to be done to get this sorted!

/minor rant/

I have a big problem with the way the Police in the country are regarded, they are commonly referred to as pigs, the filth and terms that get progressively worse but they are the first people we as a populous call when we are in the st!
I have had multiple dealings with them over my lifetime from being on the wrong side of them (as a tear away teen rather than anything serious aka boys will be boys) to being on the right/other side of things, they have bought me bad news (my BIL taking his own life) as well as good news (we found your car) and closure (you car was written off).
Another example when our cat was shot with an air rifle. The whole incident was taken very seriously, an officer visited and took a statement, a sergeant followed up with us and for a couple of months our local community team popped their heads over the gates to see how the cat was recovering and to check we were ok.
From where I sit they provide an undervalued service and often unenviable task list of bad things. Their image could do with some work, their are some bad eggs I am not so naive to think that all in the force are angels, some are in it for the power, some are in to serve but they are at least all in.
I don't know what the solution is, I don't pretend to but I do know I will support them where I can!

Re: tearaway youths.

I worked Brighton for a couple of years, returned as an inspector i/c a shift, and then back twice in other departments. There were kids I nicked in my first stint who would stop me in the town centre for a chat after 10/15 years. I'd be introduced to girlfriends/wives (a sign they'd changed for the better normally) and a couple of times, children as well. It's a positive side to the job.

Another time: when I was a PC I went into the Children's Hospital at Christmas just as something to do. I never knew if the nurses wished I'd cleared off as they were understaffed and only the most seriously ill kids were kept in. 15 years later I was walking on the Downs with my wife when a woman came up to me and asked if I was a police officer. I said I was off duty but did she need help. She said she recognised me as the one who came into the hospital when her child was ill and played with the kids. She said I was all her child talked of for some days afterwards. She just wanted to thank me.

The woman was emotional and walked off. It was obvious what had happened to her child. My wife was close to tears. Not really part of the job, but a member of the public would not have been allowed just to wander in and in any case would not have had the impact of a police officer in full uniform with a red nose on.

I think that in general, the police are held in a certain degree of respect by the public. There's a high degree of trust. The lack of funding leading to a lack of officers able to respond that we have at present means that this trust and respect might be eaten away. An RC might tell the public what to expect from the police so that when they are directed elsewhere there's some chance of understanding. A phone call to the doctors' surgery might well return an appointment with a nurse. It doesn't mean everyone is upset with the way doctors are not doing their job. The problems are well known. Any anger will probably be directed at the government. Perhaps that's why they will try and reject an RC into the police.

[Red Devil]

andy_s said:

Red 4 said:

The weirdest thing about the police in France was seeing groups of CRS rollerblading around the Eiffel Tower !

No idea if they still do that but it kinda detracted from the macho image !

Steps/ stairs also appeared to be a bit of an issue

Edited by Red 4 on Tuesday 25th September 23:51

Even weirder is that the Parisian Fire Brigade is also an Army unit under MinDef! [but operationally under the Police(?) day to day].

Their French title is Brigade des sapeurs-pompiers de Paris (BSPP).
They also have certain specific duties beyond the capital and its surrounding départements.
Sapeurs (sappers) are military engineers, hence why the Brigade is a French Army unit.

Paris isn't the only French city to have a similar military based organisation.
Marseille does too but theirs is a Navy unit: the BMPM (Bataillon de marins-pompiers de Marseille).

[Derek Smith]

Red Devil said:

Their French title is Brigade des sapeurs-pompiers de Paris (BSPP).
They also have certain specific duties beyond the capital and its surrounding départements.
Sapeurs (sappers) are military engineers, hence why the Brigade is a French Army unit.

Paris isn't the only French city to have a similar military based organisation.
Marseille does too but theirs is a Navy unit: the BMPM (Bataillon de marins-pompiers de Marseille).

The riots in 1968 seem to be largely forgotten outside of France. At the time they seemed unbelievable, at least in London. Later that year we'd had 30 to 100k (depending on which paper your read) anti-Vietnam war demonstrators, a number of whom attacked the American embassy in Grosvenor Square. The comparison between the way the police handled themselves in London compared to the CRS, who made things worse, was vivid. I met a number of police officers who said they were inspired to join the service on seeing how bravely the police handled themselves. A bit strange as there were films of bobbies being felled by stones.

When I joined the police we were shown videos of the policing methods the French used, showing positives and negatives. Given that there was a march where demonstrators exceed 1M, the police generally did well, although not without going over the top too many times. However, it was an attempt to topple the government.

We were also told that we had a responsibility for our own conduct and were shown a demonstrator coming out of the centre of Paris after days of disturbances. There was a CRS guard, complete with rifle, leaning against a wall in a doorway. He wasn't hiding and the demonstrator saw him. He flicked a cigarette contemptuously. We all knew what would happen, and it nearly did. The demonstrator got a rifle but into the neck. We were expecting a shot, so the assault was something of a relief and we laughed out of relief.

I still have sympathy for the CRS guy, despite his thuggery. He'd been on duty for hours, maybe days, without relief, food and even toilets. He was at the end of his tether. Both he and the demonstrator probably learned a lot that day.

[majordad]

Maybe the answer is in recruitment methods used for police. Set standards like, honesty, moral courage, bravery, dedication and other such traits and profile or test for them. Continually test and reward these traits throughout ones career.