£80000 for civil rape conviction

[singlecoil]

otolith said:

I also know that in this case the civil court heard 7 days of evidence and produced an 84 page ruling.

So, yes, I would imagine that the evidence amounted to rather more than an unsubstantiated accusation.

Well, what do you imagine that evidence could consist of? Lacking a published transcript my guess it would amount to each of them telling their stories again, and evidence about the aftermath rather than the act. Obviously the physical evidence was not enough to prove anything either way (as determined by the criminal case) so what else could is consist of?

[otolith]

singlecoil said:

otolith said:

I also know that in this case the civil court heard 7 days of evidence and produced an 84 page ruling.

So, yes, I would imagine that the evidence amounted to rather more than an unsubstantiated accusation.

Well, what do you imagine that evidence could consist of? Lacking a published transcript my guess it would amount to each of them telling their stories again, and evidence about the aftermath rather than the act. Obviously the physical evidence was not enough to prove anything either way (as determined by the criminal case) so what else could is consist of?

Some more detail here;

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/06/th...

[otolith]

Here we go. The decision in full.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/c...

[anonymous-user]

Psycho Warren said:

Graveworm said:

However in terms of whether she was raped all that matters is - if the man had sex with a woman who didn't consent - he raped her.

I think you are missing the point. He was NOT found guilty. Therefore he did NOT rape her and by definition the sex was consensual in the eyes of the criminal court.

The court is not saying the sex was consensual because the case could not be proven, at all.

[PorkInsider]

Reading some of the comments in this thread makes me glad I don’t have a daughter to worry about.

[anonymous-user]

otolith said:

Here we go. The decision in full.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/c...

Having read that, I think he's been rather fortunate at his criminal trial. Fortunate that she didn't go to the police during any forensic window.

[otolith]

La Liga said:

aving read that, I think he's been rather fortunate at his criminal trial. Fortunate that she didn't go to the police during any forensic window.

I concur - and I can see why he got the "bd verdict".

[singlecoil]

La Liga said:

otolith said:

Here we go. The decision in full.

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/c...

Having read that, I think he's been rather fortunate at his criminal trial. Fortunate that she didn't go to the police during any forensic window.

Very fortunate

[Runes]

Psycho Warren said:

He was NOT found guilty. Therefore he did NOT rape her and by definition the sex was consensual in the eyes of the criminal court.

That is wrong. The verdict (of "not proven", not "not guilty") means the defendant is entitled to be treated by the criminal justice system as if he had not committed rape. It does not amount to a finding that he did not commit rape.

[Runes]

Psycho Warren said:

Technically she suffered harm from "consensual" sex as far as the law is concerned. Could you imagine if every woman who had drunken sex and regretted it sued for emotional damage? And got a shrink to say she was depressed as evidence of actual "harm" caused? or how about when relationships go bad and people split, a partner sues the cheater for emotional distress etc??

I think you've fundamentally misunderstood this case. You are muddling up two questions: (1) whether the pursuer, Miss M, suffered loss, and if so, what loss; and (2) whether that loss was caused by the defender, Mr Coxen, doing an actionable wrong (in this case rape). On the second question, it was for Miss M to prove all of the ingredients of rape, including that she had not consented, and that Mr Coxen had not reasonably believed that she had consented. She proved them. As far as the law is concerned, she was raped.

[anonymous-user]

Warren should take an hour to read the judgement above.

[otolith]

That link appears to be a bit of a conversation stopper.

[singlecoil]

otolith said:

That link appears to be a bit of a conversation stopper.

That's hardly surprising. Up til then it was reasonable to assume that the criminal case was inconclusive, and those people who disapproved of the civil case were doing so because of that.

[markjmd]

singlecoil said:

otolith said:

That link appears to be a bit of a conversation stopper.

That's hardly surprising. Up til then it was reasonable to assume that the criminal case was inconclusive, and those people who disapproved of the civil case were doing so because of that.

It's a long read, and while part of me is wondering how the jury at the criminal trial failed to reach a guilty verdict if they were presented with all the same evidence that was available by that time as the Sheriff, the bigger question I think I'm left with is where were the victim's friends in all this? They seem to have disappeared from the picture midway through the evening, despite being fully aware quite some time earlier that their friend was so far gone with drink she couldn't possibly be expected to make her way home safely or generally look after herself. You almost wonder how much of the victim's subsequent mental trauma was due to feeling she'd been left abandoned as she was, as it was to actually being attacked.

[ChocolateFrog]

markjmd said:

singlecoil said:

otolith said:

That link appears to be a bit of a conversation stopper.

That's hardly surprising. Up til then it was reasonable to assume that the criminal case was inconclusive, and those people who disapproved of the civil case were doing so because of that.

It's a long read, and while part of me is wondering how the jury at the criminal trial failed to reach a guilty verdict if they were presented with all the same evidence that was available by that time as the Sheriff, the bigger question I think I'm left with is where were the victim's friends in all this? They seem to have disappeared from the picture midway through the evening, despite being fully aware quite some time earlier that their friend was so far gone with drink she couldn't possibly be expected to make her way home safely or generally look after herself. You almost wonder how much of the victim's subsequent mental trauma was due to feeling she'd been left abandoned as she was, as it was to actually being attacked.

Have you met any young drunk women recently?

I have family who work as street pastors at festivals and on Firday and Saturday nights in town centres. It's either cleaning up the aftermath of fights or picking single women out of gutters and trying to convince taxi drivers to take them home despite the great of vomit and the woman having zero money left.

Not everyone granted, but a significant minority.

[Driver101]

ChocolateFrog said:

markjmd said:

singlecoil said:

otolith said:

That link appears to be a bit of a conversation stopper.

That's hardly surprising. Up til then it was reasonable to assume that the criminal case was inconclusive, and those people who disapproved of the civil case were doing so because of that.

It's a long read, and while part of me is wondering how the jury at the criminal trial failed to reach a guilty verdict if they were presented with all the same evidence that was available by that time as the Sheriff, the bigger question I think I'm left with is where were the victim's friends in all this? They seem to have disappeared from the picture midway through the evening, despite being fully aware quite some time earlier that their friend was so far gone with drink she couldn't possibly be expected to make her way home safely or generally look after herself. You almost wonder how much of the victim's subsequent mental trauma was due to feeling she'd been left abandoned as she was, as it was to actually being attacked.

Have you met any young drunk women recently?

I have family who work as street pastors at festivals and on Firday and Saturday nights in town centres. It's either cleaning up the aftermath of fights or picking single women out of gutters and trying to convince taxi drivers to take them home despite the great of vomit and the woman having zero money left.

Not everyone granted, but a significant minority.

This happens all too often. There is always drunken stragglers left lying about the streets at the end of the night.

Clubs and pubs need to do more to stop people getting in such a mess. They aren't supposed to sell drink to people who are too far gone, but they always do.

The sad fact is there is plenty of aholes that do prey on drunken women. You can bet the girl that is a bit too far gone is going to get more male attention and that's when it's not right.

Drunken one night stands happen all the time, but boundaries have to be in place.


I've just quickly read through that court case. It sounds much worse reading than I thought.

Sleeping with a virgin, disappearing as soon as sex is finished, then not willing to face her the next day all reads of acts of a man with a guilty conscience.

[Driver101]

Other the other hand I see a woman was jailed for making a false rape allegation yesterday.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6269779/A...

This is what is always going to harm genuine rape cases.

[grumpy52]

My view on the Scottish verdict of Not Proven is that they haven't enough proof to convict , totally different to a not guilty verdict .
As with many cases the truth is often not the decider .

[handpaper]

As I understand it, a Scottish jury could originally hand down only two verdicts : Proven or Not Proven according to whether they thought the prosecution had a strong enough case.
The verdict of Not Guilty was first given in a case where the defendant had certainly acted as the prosecution alleged, but the jury considered that he had not had criminal intent.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_proven

Interestingly, the above article mentions use of the "not proven" verdict in rape cases; apparently a third of acquittals are of this form. It is suggested that juries are happier declaring that the prosecution has not proved its case than that the defendant is not guilty, feeling that this latter suggests that the alleged victim is lying.

[anonymous-user]

The victim has spoken to the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-e...

It's interesting how she describes feeling like she was in control during the civil proceedings as opposed to the criminal ones.