Being messed around, when to say enough is enough?

[Vaud]

BertBert said:

I'm also wondering what the financial situation is going to be. There seems to be two outcomes with car specialists - they take ages longer than they said, but honour the price, or they take ages longer than they said and the price goes up in accordance with the elapsed time. The latter being far more common than the former.

If it's the former, then if the OP doesn't mind the wait, then there are no other consequences. If it's the latter, the price is going up day by day!!

Bert

Best to break into stages... strip down + welding, then respray, then engine, etc. Helps cash flow for the provider and you can pull the car easily after any single phase without dispute on monies.

[CaptainSensib1e]

Was the work agreed at a fixed price? Sounds like he might have realised it's going to cost a lot more to finish than he originally quoted and has put the whole project on the back burner for that reason.

[monthefish]

BertBert said:

I'm also wondering what the financial situation is going to be.

That's why the OP should take control and produce a detailed account on what he thinks has been done and what is a reasonable price (based on whatever was agreed at the outset).
Provided what he comes up with is fair/reasonable, the garage is likely to accept it (rather than the battle/stress of taking the OP to court).

If it does go to court, this would be required anyway.

[BertBert]

sl0wlane said:

Over this same period the specialist becomes less and less responsive to communication, he refuses to give out mobile number, which I kind of understand as it’s his personal phone I suppose, but he vary rarely ever answers land line, stops responding on Facebook chat and never replies to email... I’m now forced to communicate him through a mutual contact.

sl0wlane said:

Well, after chasing the mutual contact (which really isn’t fair, it’s nothing to do with him), I had a short reply.

Re-reading. This is all nonsense OP. Get down there and inspect the progress. Then it'll be clear. Get the car back.
Bert

[singlecoil]

monthefish said:

BertBert said:

I'm also wondering what the financial situation is going to be.

That's why the OP should take control and produce a detailed account on what he thinks has been done and what is a reasonable price (based on whatever was agreed at the outset).
Provided what he comes up with is fair/reasonable, the garage is likely to accept it (rather than the battle/stress of taking the OP to court).

If it does go to court, this would be required anyway.

It won't be the firm taking the OP to court, they don't need to, they've got his car and I expect won't release it until he's paid what they think he owes.

[sl0wlane]

CaptainSensib1e said:

Was the work agreed at a fixed price? Sounds like he might have realised it's going to cost a lot more to finish than he originally quoted and has put the whole project on the back burner for that reason.

This is, I think, what really might have happened... he under quoted the work, or underestimated the time and effort it would take to complete, then basically shelved my project in favour of quick paying in-out jobs and has been doing my car in evenings / spare time.

It was at a fixed price, so after the two weeks elapsed I guess the only way he can justify the extra time is to do it after hours etc.

My issue with that is, I gave him the job in the first place due to the 2 week turn around promised (after spending 3 years building something, someone offering to have it turned around in 2 weeks, or even 4 is a huge relief and the perfect answer)... at no point did I say “yea mate, if you could just work on it in you spare time when you have nothing better to do” - if I had wanted that, I would have just done it myself.

To whomever said will I take the advice, yes, I am reading and taking this in, sadly it’s just confirmation of what I know I really have to deal with head on... which is gutting, really thought it would be on the road this summer, alas, little chance of that now.

[sl0wlane]

singlecoil said:

It won't be the firm taking the OP to court, they don't need to, they've got his car and I expect won't release it until he's paid what they think he owes.

This is also a very valid point and a real worry. With ~£50k of my property in his possession I am not in a great negotiating position.

Really the only chip I have to play is the damage it may do to his business and credibility if I release the details.

[Vaud]

sl0wlane said:

This is also a very valid point and a real worry. With ~£50k of my property in his possession I am not in a great negotiating position.

You are, you just need to assert your rights. The contract relationship has clearly broken down irrevocably. Time to assert, offer a payment and recover your vehicle.

[singlecoil]

sl0wlane said:

singlecoil said:

It won't be the firm taking the OP to court, they don't need to, they've got his car and I expect won't release it until he's paid what they think he owes.

This is also a very valid point and a real worry. With ~£50k of my property in his possession I am not in a great negotiating position.

Really the only chip I have to play is the damage it may do to his business and credibility if I release the details.

If it goes that way the standard procedure is to pay their bill, get the car back and then take them to court afterwards, whether it's the small claims or higher court will depend on the size of the claim.

[Arnold Cunningham]

I sympathise with you and have been in somewhat similar positions in the past. And there's always some kind of sob story in there too, while they seem to be able to get on with other peoples jobs in the meantime. IMVHO, he's broken your trust, so I'd turn up with a trailer at a time you know he's there and get your car back home. Pay for the work he's done and don't fall out with him over it - just be polite & courteous and get the car back into your hands safely.
50K. Hmm. Ultima kit?

[I Love Cake]

I bet you’re a really nice bloke OP, and I also bet the specialist isn’t and is taking full advantage of you.

[BertBert]

I Love Cake said:

I bet you’re a really nice bloke OP, and I also bet the specialist isn’t and is taking full advantage of you.

They don't have to be nasty or dishonest or devious. They are just crap at running their business and probably well meaning. They under estimate the job, they end up with too many jobs, often jobs are hard and hit blockers and they are probably very talented but the world's worst finishers. Then they hide when things go wrong. A mega well-trodden path. And yes that often turns into short-cuts and bodges which leads to deception.

When you talk to others who have used the same specialist, you will get people with very positive experiences and you can't understand how that happens! Almost the luck of the draw. There is a well known Porsche specialist (not to be named) who is (rightly) revered for his skill and knowledge. But if your car goes there for resto works, you won't see it for years and years!

And of course there are the out and out dodgy bodgers. But I doubt the OP's specialist is one.

Bert

[Vaud]

It becomes a bit dishonest when they stop communications.

[monthefish]

sl0wlane said:

CaptainSensib1e said:

Was the work agreed at a fixed price? Sounds like he might have realised it's going to cost a lot more to finish than he originally quoted and has put the whole project on the back burner for that reason.

This is, I think, what really might have happened... he under quoted the work, or underestimated the time and effort it would take to complete, then basically shelved my project in favour of quick paying in-out jobs and has been doing my car in evenings / spare time.

I would imagine he's sick of the project also so you can use this to your advantage, i.e give him an 'out' by offering to draw a line under what's gone before and part ways.

How accurately can you estimate the work done to date, and therefore what monies he's due?

[james_gt3rs]

From a cash flow perspective you can see why they prefer doing a quick service on lots of cars (and make money on parts markup) rather than e.g. welding for hours on end

[sl0wlane]

BertBert said:

They don't have to be nasty or dishonest or devious. They are just crap at running their business and probably well meaning. They under estimate the job, they end up with too many jobs, often jobs are hard and hit blockers and they are probably very talented but the world's worst finishers. Then they hide when things go wrong. A mega well-trodden path. And yes that often turns into short-cuts and bodges which leads to deception.

When you talk to others who have used the same specialist, you will get people with very positive experiences and you can't understand how that happens! Almost the luck of the draw. There is a well known Porsche specialist (not to be named) who is (rightly) revered for his skill and knowledge. But if your car goes there for resto works, you won't see it for years and years!

And of course there are the out and out dodgy bodgers. But I doubt the OP's specialist is one.

Bert

I’d say this about sums it up. I’d also agree this kind of behaviour / performance / business accumen is reallly not uncommon in the car / motorsport industry... the guy that built my engine behaved in a very similar way.

I guess they are engineers first, business men second.

I’d also say, even if you go up the chain it’s still prevelant, I know of a guy that commissioned pro-drive with a car build and got a similar experience.

This is why I have been so forgiving, I’d half expect the next “expert” to do the same thing anyway.

Edited by sl0wlane on Friday 22 March 06:02

[BrettMRC]

OP - is there any reason why you can't go to the premises and have a direct conversation?

Ask him to talk you through work so far, tasks outstanding and time frames.

Be direct, ask him if this was more work than he expected and does he still want the job.

If he is equally evasive face to face then call it quits and agree on payment for the work completed to date.

[Vaud]

BrettMRC said:

Be direct, ask him if this was more work than he expected and does he still want the job.

But the contractual relationship is completely broken given the communications.

OP, you want your asset back and an appropriate payment made and a new specialist with phased deliverables.

[Taylor James]

OP I have been in a very similar position to you. Like you I listened to all sorts of excuses, many of which were designed to play on any normal person's sympathies. Eventually I ran out of patience and became much more assertive with my demands. All that happened then was just enough work was done to appease me. Then it would stop and the cycle would begin again. I then began to find other customers who had been on the end of similar treatment. My concern began to grow that I would turn up one day to find the business closed and my car gone, or in so many pieces with parts missing that it would be beyond repair.

This is what is likely to happen to you. I strongly advise you to cut your losses and get the car out of there now. Forget legal action, just write the cost off to experience and get the car back so that you can regroup. Chances are that you will uncover all sorts of bodges when you do get it back but at least you will have it.

The end of my story was that I applied sufficient pressure to get the car back in running condition but with many bodges and a bent MOT. However, the garage is now closed, around 20 cars were repossessed, bailiffs in, etc and the proprietor has done a runner. I actually consider myself lucky.

Harden your heart and get the car recovered now. You will feel better once you've done it.

Edited by Taylor James on Friday 22 March 19:55

[A1VDY]

Get down there immediately! £50K worth of car and communication stops? Is the business actually still there? Has he sold everything (inc your car) and disappeared?
Phone calls /emails are of no use in this kind of situation. Illness ect are all just bullst excuses and give these kind of people more time to make their escape..