Legal Advice regarding Car Sale
Discussion
Integroo said:
I am almost certain eBay's terms say that bids on an eBay AUCTION are not binding. Classified sales are completed outside of eBay.
Not what I quoted from their siteHere it is again
for motor vehicles and real estate (property) listed in the Classified Ad format, a bid or offer is not binding, but expresses a buyer's serious interest in the item;
ging84 said:
Not what I quoted from their site
Here it is again
for motor vehicles and real estate (property) listed in the Classified Ad format, a bid or offer is not binding, but expresses a buyer's serious interest in the item;
I think that must mean through the "make an offer" function.Here it is again
for motor vehicles and real estate (property) listed in the Classified Ad format, a bid or offer is not binding, but expresses a buyer's serious interest in the item;
Regardless the present transaction was outside ebay.
Integroo said:
I am almost certain eBay's terms say that bids on an eBay AUCTION are not binding. Classified sales are completed outside of eBay.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/aircraft-in-ebay-dogfight/news-story/50d31ce2ea5ef1093bfe32b2eca4cbceAnd he won.
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/victory-for-onli...
Integroo said:
I think that must mean through the "make an offer" function.
Regardless the present transaction was outside ebay.
You think it means that, maybe it does.Regardless the present transaction was outside ebay.
But it doesn't say that, and it's what it says that counts.
I don't think it does mean that, they don't pay for these terms and conditions by the word. I think if that was what it mean that is what it would say.
Why is it regardless that the 'present transaction' was completed outside eBay? That is how eBay classifieds are done.
Mexman said:
Red 4 said:
The car was sold 3 months ago.
This is really quite a simple fact to get your head around.
If you can't manage that, I'm with integroo - stick to selling second hand cars rather than offering legal advice on the internet.
You look a bit silly.
How can you put a value on "loss of bargain"?This is really quite a simple fact to get your head around.
If you can't manage that, I'm with integroo - stick to selling second hand cars rather than offering legal advice on the internet.
You look a bit silly.
Its nonsense.
I’ve been in similar situations and taken (paid for) legal advice and was advised I had nothing to claim as was in the same situation as I would have been anyway by not buying the car with nothing materially lost hence nothing to claim.
The most frustrating ones for me Were both caused by Franchised Honda dealers when I had a car sales business and used to buy lots of trade ins from main dealers across the U.K. ( mainly England).
I bought a Porsche off a Honda dealer, we agreed a price when the px was being taken in, they invoiced me and I paid in full by bank transfer, deal done, had a potential customer interested already.
When I called to arrange to collect it a couple of days later was told it was gone no longer available, the dealer principal then apologised and said one of the mechanics had taken it for a test drive and crashed it / wrecked it.
It was more likely they realised it was sold to me far too cheap and then a preferred local trader or friend bought it - after I had already been invoiced and paid for it.
You can guess what happened next it appeared for sale on autotrader at another indie dealer close to the Honda dealer. At this point they still had my money and wanted to refund it but i wanted them to get me the car back from their customer.
Legal advice was that there was very little I could do to force them to stick to the deal and they were quite clear that I could not claim for the profit I might have made on the deal as I had not actually lost anything at all in the process and if I wanted to try and make a case how much time and money was I really prepared to put into it ?
Had a similar thing with a Civic where the deal was agreed, invoiced and I paid by cheque - but that car was then sold on to another dealer before I could come back and collect it.
For a private sale where no money changed hands the OP has zero to worry about and buyer A is a t
t for trying it on -. he won’t get anywhere at all with this in England as he has not lost anything.I quite enjoy threads like this as have a reasonable amount of personal experience of it and it always makes me laugh at some of the regular rubbish that gets posted up from our resident ‘Text Book legal eagles’!
This explains eBay classifieds
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/listing...
And this is where it says the offers are non binding
https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behavi...
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/listing...
And this is where it says the offers are non binding
https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behavi...
ging84 said:
This explains eBay classifieds
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/listing...
And this is where it says the offers are non binding
https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behavi...
We don't need to know if the offer is binding, we need to know if the acceptance of the offer is binding.https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/listings/listing...
And this is where it says the offers are non binding
https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behavi...
Integroo said:
And? SOGA S51 is not limited to consumer contracts.
I am literally a lawyer who has read the legislation just this morning. You are a car salesman who hasn't and doesn't have a clue what you are talking about.
Often in these threads you come across more like a first year distance learning legal student who has the books but has very little idea on how these things play out when they hit you in real life.I am literally a lawyer who has read the legislation just this morning. You are a car salesman who hasn't and doesn't have a clue what you are talking about.
rallycross said:
You won’t win any argument with these school level legal eagles - they ain’t listening!
I’ve been in similar situations and taken (paid for) legal advice and was advised I had nothing to claim as was in the same situation as I would have been anyway by not buying the car with nothing materially lost hence nothing to claim.
The most frustrating ones for me Were both caused by Franchised Honda dealers when I had a car sales business and used to buy lots of trade ins from main dealers across the U.K. ( mainly England).
I bought a Porsche off a Honda dealer, we agreed a price when the px was being taken in, they invoiced me and I paid in full by bank transfer, deal done, had a potential customer interested already.
When I called to arrange to collect it a couple of days later was told it was gone no longer available, the dealer principal then apologised and said one of the mechanics had taken it for a test drive and crashed it / wrecked it.
It was more likely they realised it was sold to me far too cheap and then a preferred local trader or friend bought it - after I had already been invoiced and paid for it.
You can guess what happened next it appeared for sale on autotrader at another indie dealer close to the Honda dealer. At this point they still had my money and wanted to refund it but i wanted them to get me the car back from their customer.
Legal advice was that there was very little I could do to force them to stick to the deal and they were quite clear that I could not claim for the profit I might have made on the deal as I had not actually lost anything at all in the process and if I wanted to try and make a case how much time and money was I really prepared to put into it ?
Had a similar thing with a Civic where the deal was agreed, invoiced and I paid by cheque - but that car was then sold on to another dealer before I could come back and collect it.
For a private sale where no money changed hands the OP has zero to worry about and buyer A is a tt for trying it on -. he won’t get anywhere at all with this in England as he has not lost anything.
I quite enjoy threads like this as have a reasonable amount of personal experience of it and it always makes me laugh at some of the regular rubbish that gets posted up from our resident ‘Text Book legal eagles’!
Two practising lawyers or a used car salesman. I wonder who OP should take legal advice from I’ve been in similar situations and taken (paid for) legal advice and was advised I had nothing to claim as was in the same situation as I would have been anyway by not buying the car with nothing materially lost hence nothing to claim.
The most frustrating ones for me Were both caused by Franchised Honda dealers when I had a car sales business and used to buy lots of trade ins from main dealers across the U.K. ( mainly England).
I bought a Porsche off a Honda dealer, we agreed a price when the px was being taken in, they invoiced me and I paid in full by bank transfer, deal done, had a potential customer interested already.
When I called to arrange to collect it a couple of days later was told it was gone no longer available, the dealer principal then apologised and said one of the mechanics had taken it for a test drive and crashed it / wrecked it.
It was more likely they realised it was sold to me far too cheap and then a preferred local trader or friend bought it - after I had already been invoiced and paid for it.
You can guess what happened next it appeared for sale on autotrader at another indie dealer close to the Honda dealer. At this point they still had my money and wanted to refund it but i wanted them to get me the car back from their customer.
Legal advice was that there was very little I could do to force them to stick to the deal and they were quite clear that I could not claim for the profit I might have made on the deal as I had not actually lost anything at all in the process and if I wanted to try and make a case how much time and money was I really prepared to put into it ?
Had a similar thing with a Civic where the deal was agreed, invoiced and I paid by cheque - but that car was then sold on to another dealer before I could come back and collect it.
For a private sale where no money changed hands the OP has zero to worry about and buyer A is a t
t for trying it on -. he won’t get anywhere at all with this in England as he has not lost anything.I quite enjoy threads like this as have a reasonable amount of personal experience of it and it always makes me laugh at some of the regular rubbish that gets posted up from our resident ‘Text Book legal eagles’!
The OP asked for legal (not indemnified) advice.
He has had plenty from well meaning lawyers and non-lawyers.
He has had some appalling advice from some that state he has no risk, jog on, etc.
The reality is that in the world of small claims, there may be a case for "loss of bargain" (subject to evidence of the loss) and either way the OP needs to be careful.
Maybe he will win, maybe he won't. But he needs to understand the risks in order to make an informed decision.
He has had plenty from well meaning lawyers and non-lawyers.
He has had some appalling advice from some that state he has no risk, jog on, etc.
The reality is that in the world of small claims, there may be a case for "loss of bargain" (subject to evidence of the loss) and either way the OP needs to be careful.
Maybe he will win, maybe he won't. But he needs to understand the risks in order to make an informed decision.
rallycross said:
You won’t win any argument with these school level legal eagles - they ain’t listening!
I’ve been in similar situations and taken (paid for) legal advice and was advised I had nothing to claim as was in the same situation as I would have been anyway by not buying the car with nothing materially lost hence nothing to claim.
The most frustrating ones for me Were both caused by Franchised Honda dealers when I had a car sales business and used to buy lots of trade ins from main dealers across the U.K. ( mainly England).
I bought a Porsche off a Honda dealer, we agreed a price when the px was being taken in, they invoiced me and I paid in full by bank transfer, deal done, had a potential customer interested already.
When I called to arrange to collect it a couple of days later was told it was gone no longer available, the dealer principal then apologised and said one of the mechanics had taken it for a test drive and crashed it / wrecked it.
It was more likely they realised it was sold to me far too cheap and then a preferred local trader or friend bought it - after I had already been invoiced and paid for it.
You can guess what happened next it appeared for sale on autotrader at another indie dealer close to the Honda dealer. At this point they still had my money and wanted to refund it but i wanted them to get me the car back from their customer.
Legal advice was that there was very little I could do to force them to stick to the deal and they were quite clear that I could not claim for the profit I might have made on the deal as I had not actually lost anything at all in the process and if I wanted to try and make a case how much time and money was I really prepared to put into it ?
Had a similar thing with a Civic where the deal was agreed, invoiced and I paid by cheque - but that car was then sold on to another dealer before I could come back and collect it.
For a private sale where no money changed hands the OP has zero to worry about and buyer A is a tt for trying it on -. he won’t get anywhere at all with this in England as he has not lost anything.
I quite enjoy threads like this as have a reasonable amount of personal experience of it and it always makes me laugh at some of the regular rubbish that gets posted up from our resident ‘Text Book legal eagles’!
Mr Rallycross, what is you do? Also a used car salesman? I suggest you stick to it rather than giving legal advice. I’ve been in similar situations and taken (paid for) legal advice and was advised I had nothing to claim as was in the same situation as I would have been anyway by not buying the car with nothing materially lost hence nothing to claim.
The most frustrating ones for me Were both caused by Franchised Honda dealers when I had a car sales business and used to buy lots of trade ins from main dealers across the U.K. ( mainly England).
I bought a Porsche off a Honda dealer, we agreed a price when the px was being taken in, they invoiced me and I paid in full by bank transfer, deal done, had a potential customer interested already.
When I called to arrange to collect it a couple of days later was told it was gone no longer available, the dealer principal then apologised and said one of the mechanics had taken it for a test drive and crashed it / wrecked it.
It was more likely they realised it was sold to me far too cheap and then a preferred local trader or friend bought it - after I had already been invoiced and paid for it.
You can guess what happened next it appeared for sale on autotrader at another indie dealer close to the Honda dealer. At this point they still had my money and wanted to refund it but i wanted them to get me the car back from their customer.
Legal advice was that there was very little I could do to force them to stick to the deal and they were quite clear that I could not claim for the profit I might have made on the deal as I had not actually lost anything at all in the process and if I wanted to try and make a case how much time and money was I really prepared to put into it ?
Had a similar thing with a Civic where the deal was agreed, invoiced and I paid by cheque - but that car was then sold on to another dealer before I could come back and collect it.
For a private sale where no money changed hands the OP has zero to worry about and buyer A is a t
t for trying it on -. he won’t get anywhere at all with this in England as he has not lost anything.I quite enjoy threads like this as have a reasonable amount of personal experience of it and it always makes me laugh at some of the regular rubbish that gets posted up from our resident ‘Text Book legal eagles’!
The claimant in this case is neither seeking specific performance nor is he making a claim for loss of profit. Your anecdotes therefore have no value whatsoever.
Nobody here has denied that the claimant may have difficulties in evidencing his loss. However to say he has no hope is simply bad advice given by people that simply do not know what they are talking about.
Integroo said:
Mr Rallycross, what is you do? Also a used car salesman? I suggest you stick to it rather than giving legal advice.
The claimant in this case is neither seeking specific performance nor is he making a claim for loss of profit. Your anecdotes therefore have no value whatsoever.
Nobody here has denied that the claimant may have difficulties in evidencing his loss. However to say he has no hope is simply bad advice given by people that simply do not know what they are talking about.
No you arrogant tThe claimant in this case is neither seeking specific performance nor is he making a claim for loss of profit. Your anecdotes therefore have no value whatsoever.
Nobody here has denied that the claimant may have difficulties in evidencing his loss. However to say he has no hope is simply bad advice given by people that simply do not know what they are talking about.
t but I used to run a car sales business (long time ago and now work for an American corporate) but I have been in a similar situation as the OP and have seen how it plays out and your advice on this thread will not help him.rallycross said:
No you arrogant tt but I used to run a car sales business (long time ago and now work for an American corporate) but I have been in a similar situation as the OP and have seen how it plays out and your advice on this thread will not help him.
You clearly don't know the legislation or the law so I would recommend you keep your opinions to yourself. t but I used to run a car sales business (long time ago and now work for an American corporate) but I have been in a similar situation as the OP and have seen how it plays out and your advice on this thread will not help him.talksthetorque said:
We don't need to know if the offer is binding, we need to know if the acceptance of the offer is binding.
According to the terms the 'offer'. was an expression of serious interest.Even if it technically fails as a legal construct the sentiment behind it is also clearly stated that it makes offers non binding, so how can you realistically try and argue an assumed intention to form a legal contract.
One thing to note from this article (before the thread got "ahem" diverted) was that the original court actually misunderstood what constituted a legal contract.
It echos a comment early on in the thread about courts being operated by humans.
In the bolton porsche case (which cheered me up btw) the claimant had to sink some £50k into legal costs to get the judgement they were after.
Would it be unreasonable to ask the OP if they were feeling lucky?
A litigation strategy might be worth thinking about
(Ps I am not a used car salesman
)
It echos a comment early on in the thread about courts being operated by humans.
In the bolton porsche case (which cheered me up btw) the claimant had to sink some £50k into legal costs to get the judgement they were after.
Would it be unreasonable to ask the OP if they were feeling lucky?
A litigation strategy might be worth thinking about
(Ps I am not a used car salesman
)tinnitusjosh said:
Just for a bit of real world context, here is a Porsche dealer that had agreed (i.e. entered into a contract) to sell a GT3 to Buyer A but subsequently decided to sell to Buyer B instead. Measure of damages was the delta between the price that Buyer A would have paid, and the market value of a replacement
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14217700.pors...
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14217700.pors...
Ian Geary said:
One thing to note from this article (before the thread got "ahem" diverted) was that the original court actually misunderstood what constituted a legal contract.
It echos a comment early on in the thread about courts being operated by humans.
In the bolton porsche case (which cheered me up btw) the claimant had to sink some £50k into legal costs to get the judgement they were after.
Would it be unreasonable to ask the OP if they were feeling lucky?
A litigation strategy might be worth thinking about
(Ps I am not a used car salesman )
This is a good point. Courts don't always make the right decision and small claims courts can be particularly unpredictable. Whether or not OP has a rock solid defence, there is always litigation risk. It echos a comment early on in the thread about courts being operated by humans.
In the bolton porsche case (which cheered me up btw) the claimant had to sink some £50k into legal costs to get the judgement they were after.
Would it be unreasonable to ask the OP if they were feeling lucky?
A litigation strategy might be worth thinking about
(Ps I am not a used car salesman
)tinnitusjosh said:
Just for a bit of real world context, here is a Porsche dealer that had agreed (i.e. entered into a contract) to sell a GT3 to Buyer A but subsequently decided to sell to Buyer B instead. Measure of damages was the delta between the price that Buyer A would have paid, and the market value of a replacement
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14217700.pors...
https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/14217700.pors...
Vaud said:
The OP asked for legal (not indemnified) advice.
He has had plenty from well meaning lawyers and non-lawyers.
He has had some appalling advice from some that state he has no risk, jog on, etc.
The reality is that in the world of small claims, there may be a case for "loss of bargain" (subject to evidence of the loss) and either way the OP needs to be careful.
Maybe he will win, maybe he won't. But he needs to understand the risks in order to make an informed decision.
Good summary of what is being said in this thread.He has had plenty from well meaning lawyers and non-lawyers.
He has had some appalling advice from some that state he has no risk, jog on, etc.
The reality is that in the world of small claims, there may be a case for "loss of bargain" (subject to evidence of the loss) and either way the OP needs to be careful.
Maybe he will win, maybe he won't. But he needs to understand the risks in order to make an informed decision.
rallycross said:
Often in these threads you come across more like a first year distance learning legal student who has the books but has very little idea on how these things play out when they hit you in real life.
It only plays out in real life like it has with you because you have allowed it to.The law is clear if you do not want to enforce agreements you have reached with people that is your prerogative.
Other people do enforce their rights.
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