Local road, sudden "Private Road No Access" signs appeared

[McGee_22]

ElectricSoup said:

I think what they have done in erecting the sign is lawful as it stands, until such time as a Public Right of Way is claimed and registered. I'm wondering whether I can be bothered with that - I use the lane frequently as a scenic short cut on foot or on my bike, it's not essential but it is a bit of detour without using it. I'm going to check my own property deeds for an easement first, when I get around to it. I think they're stored at my solicitor's though. If I have the easement which I suspect I do have, then I'll not bother. If I don't, then I might.

Is your property part of the old estate that is still in private hands like the road you are contesting seems to be?

I live on a private road (in Surrey it's no big thing as perhaps half the County is private) but on my deeds I own the road to the width of my property half way across the road width as do most of my neighbours (note most, not all). It is not a through road to another road but it does look so on a map, another private road as it happens, and we very occasionally get ramblers (or Sunday strollers) walking down to try and short-cut through.

Only twice in four years here I have had to say to people that they are not allowed to trash my neighbours fencing and hedge to force their way through to the other road and they have backed down, albeit in a grumbling we-should-be-allowed-to-walk-where-we-want-to kind of way.

At the end of the day, if it is a genuinely private road the owners are perfectly entitled to restrict access to other road owners on that road only by way of gates and locks and codes and such.

Our road owners and association have always voted against becoming a gated community - it's a majority vote so that may change in the future but there is little point in putting gates up when it's not being abused as a driving rat-run; most ramblers and sunday strollers are good natured enough to turn around from whence they came when they realise it isn't a short cut across private land.

[Swervin_Mervin]

McGee_22 said:

At the end of the day, if it is a genuinely private road the owners are perfectly entitled to restrict access to other road owners on that road only by way of gates and locks and codes and such.

Not if it's established public highway they aren't

[McGee_22]

Swervin_Mervin said:

McGee_22 said:

At the end of the day, if it is a genuinely private road the owners are perfectly entitled to restrict access to other road owners on that road only by way of gates and locks and codes and such.

Not if it's established public highway they aren't

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'established public highway'?

So far as the road traffic act and other motoring laws are concerned we have been advised (by Police and a Solicitor who live on the road) that because we have no gates and hence unhindered public access then most, but not all, of the elements of motoring laws apply such as drink driving, speeding, etc. but bits such leaving an untaxed vehicle on the side of the road would be harder to test as most (again most, not all, it's odd) of the houses own half the road in front of their properties.

As a Residents Association we could legally and easily make the decision to put up gates on the access point to restrict public access but there doesn't seem to be any mandate to so it hasn't happened.

Incidentally the Residents Association was established when, many, many decades ago, the Council complained to the residents about the state of the road and its unsuitability for services gaining access to properties; it appears to have been one of the two choices;

1. Sort out your own road or face having no vehicles coming for deliveries or services
2. We will adopt the road and put in full pavements, kerbs, drains, streetlights etc and charge each property according to length of frontage.

And so the then residents formally formed a limited company and association and strated putting in the pot to maintain the road. There are no pavements, kerbs, streetlights or even roadside drains so it is very different in nature to a 'normal' public road.

Can the OP provide a location for his dilemma?

Is the road being used as a short cut/rat run?

Edited by McGee_22 on Saturday 7th December 08:31

[Swervin_Mervin]

See references to the 20yr rule above. If it's established public highway then you cannot gate it off or prevent access in any other way, regardless of whether it's privately maintained or not

[Graveworm]

Swervin_Mervin said:

See references to the 20yr rule above. If it's established public highway then you cannot gate it off or prevent access in any other way, regardless of whether it's privately maintained or not

It's not a public highway until the right has been claimed. Continuous use can be grounds to claim it but until it has been successfully claimed it's not a highway and no rights exist.

[Swervin_Mervin]

Hence why I said "if it's been established"

[Graveworm]

Swervin_Mervin said:

Hence why I said "if it's been established"

Sorry my misunderstanding.

[guitarcarfanatic]

Battery powered angle grinder... Would have it down in a minute

[Chozza]

Its one of many private roads in in Caversham , and is used as a shortcut rather than a rat run

Signs showing its private appear every 10 or so years from memory !

We used to live on a similar road further towards Mapledurham , and our private road signs usually appeared after the various owners had to fork out on repairs
( One of my friends dad used to take a yearly photo of his kids "closing the road" for parties etc. probably to document that it was never established - but maybe because he was just weird ! )


Bit out of date .. but someone did the FOI requests a few year back for Reading

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/list_of_roa...

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/263349/resp...

[poo at Paul's]

Graveworm said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

See references to the 20yr rule above. If it's established public highway then you cannot gate it off or prevent access in any other way, regardless of whether it's privately maintained or not

It's not a public highway until the right has been claimed. Continuous use can be grounds to claim it but until it has been successfully claimed it's not a highway and no rights exist.

That's how I read it too.

[sibriers]

Surely in McGee_22's case there's no right of way if the road only connects to public highway at one end?

[ElectricSoup]

poo at Paul's said:

Graveworm said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

See references to the 20yr rule above. If it's established public highway then you cannot gate it off or prevent access in any other way, regardless of whether it's privately maintained or not

It's not a public highway until the right has been claimed. Continuous use can be grounds to claim it but until it has been successfully claimed it's not a highway and no rights exist.

That's how I read it too.

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority. Public Right of Way can exist over private land without it being Public Highway. Right of Way is what you can "claim" to be applied as a general member of the public if you can prove 20 years continuous use without barriers etc. To make a road Public Highway, however, the owners/residents would have to apply to the local authority to adopt it as such.

[Swervin_Mervin]

ElectricSoup said:

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority.

No it doesn't. That's specifically adopted highway. Public highway is highway that's open for the public to use, but may be privately maintained.

[ElectricSoup]

Swervin_Mervin said:

ElectricSoup said:

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority.

No it doesn't. That's specifically adopted highway. Public highway is highway that's open for the public to use, but may be privately maintained.

I'm just repeating what the council said to me, as per their emails I posted up on page 3. I see you disagreed with them there too.

I have to take the word of my local council on this - are you more qualified than them on this? I ask respectfully, I'm not looking for an argument.

Unless I'm missing something? Which is quite plausible.

[Swervin_Mervin]

ElectricSoup said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

ElectricSoup said:

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority.

No it doesn't. That's specifically adopted highway. Public highway is highway that's open for the public to use, but may be privately maintained.

I'm just repeating what the council said to me, as per their emails I posted up on page 3. I see you disagreed with them there too.

I have to take the word of my local council on this - are you more qualified than them on this? I ask respectfully, I'm not looking for an argument.

Unless I'm missing something? Which is quite plausible.

Totally understand. I run a transport planning consultancy, so this sort of stuff is the basics. The legalities aspect is something I tend to find myself answering a lot as I have "prior experience" for my sins - a case of once you know a little about something it's always coming your way in future!

They are wrong, as I've inferred previously. Public Highway is a terms which relates to highway open for the public to pass and re-pass upon. Some public highway is maintainable at the public expense i.e. adopted highway, but the two mean different things.

It's incredibly common for highways to have existed for over 100yrs and more and not be picked up on the official register - it doesn't mean it's not highway, just that it's often fallen through the cracks of history. We've had clients successfully make the case for "ancient" highway for example, which required a specialist historian to demonstrate it's historic existence. Once the evidence was accepted by the highway authority, the road was entered on to the list of streets maintainable from the public purse.

In this case it will be slightly different as it seems the road was constructed relatively recently (in highway terms at least). However, as has been identified there are still ways and means of enshrining the use of the route as public highway. it's also worth noting that there is no minimum period for claiming the dedication as public highway - the 20yr rule just makes it considerably more difficult for the landowner to make the case that it hasn't been dedicated.

[Swervin_Mervin]

ElectricSoup said:

Swervin_Mervin said:

ElectricSoup said:

Public Highway means maintained and paid for by the local authority.

No it doesn't. That's specifically adopted highway. Public highway is highway that's open for the public to use, but may be privately maintained.

I'm just repeating what the council said to me, as per their emails I posted up on page 3. I see you disagreed with them there too.

I have to take the word of my local council on this - are you more qualified than them on this? I ask respectfully, I'm not looking for an argument.

Unless I'm missing something? Which is quite plausible.

Totally understand. I run a transport planning consultancy, so this sort of stuff is the basics. The legalities aspect is something I tend to find myself answering a lot as I have "prior experience" for my sins - a case of once you know a little about something it's always coming your way in future!

They are wrong, as I've inferred previously. Public Highway is a terms which relates to highway open for the public to pass and re-pass upon. Some public highway is maintainable at the public expense i.e. adopted highway, but the two mean different things.

It's incredibly common for highways to have existed for over 100yrs and more and not be picked up on the official register - it doesn't mean it's not highway, just that it's often fallen through the cracks of history. We've had clients successfully make the case for "ancient" highway for example, which required a specialist historian to demonstrate it's historic existence. Once the evidence was accepted by the highway authority, the road was entered on to the list of streets maintainable from the public purse.

In this case we're talking about a slightly different scenario, as it seems the road was constructed relatively recently (in highway terms at least). However, as has been identified there are still ways and means of enshrining the use of the route as public highway. it's also worth noting that there is no minimum period for claiming the dedication as public highway - the 20yr rule just makes it considerably more difficult for the landowner to make the case that it hasn't been dedicated.

[ElectricSoup]

OK, thanks. I think what we have here is the owners/residents of the lane not wanting anyone else going down it, and the council not wanting it to become maintainable at council expense.

Still need to get round to digging out my deeds to see if there's an easement.

[Swervin_Mervin]

ElectricSoup said:

OK, thanks. I think what we have here is the owners/residents of the lane not wanting anyone else going down it, and the council not wanting it to become maintainable at council expense.

Still need to get round to digging out my deeds to see if there's an easement.

The council do have a duty though to ensure that public highway is not obstructed - that means both adopted and unadopted public highway, so it shouldn't matter to them whether it's adopted or not. There's no risk by them outlining that it's public highway - adoption is a separate process and acknowledging something as public highway does not in any way influence that.

[WJNB]

Local residents tried something similar. Didn't like 'their' little lane used as a rat-run especially by school run Yummy Mummies & their blasted vulgar SUV's & by the likes of me I occasionally in car or on my bicycle, so they posted some home-made signs & placed some bollards in the middle of the lane at each end. Within days the signs were removed & the bollards dumped in a local stream. The scenario has not been repeated - hurray.

[Hol]

https://www.findmystreet.co.uk/street-list?Provide...



is it Grass Hill or Boundary Lane?

Street Name
Locality
Town
District

Status
Maintaining Party

• *

GRASS HILL
CAVERSHAM
READING

Not maintainable at public expense
Private Street Manager

• *

BOUNDARY LANE
CAVERSHAM
READING

Not maintainable at public expense
Private Street Manager