Protesters

Author
Discussion

Breadvan72

33,215 posts

110 months

Monday 21st October
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The protester here is being a bit of a knob, but suggestions of violence against him or other protesters (made with varying amounts of tongue in cheek) are OTT if not made in jest.

As to protesters generally, many PHers appear a bit authoritarian in outlook, despite being all about personal freedom when it comes to driving.

pjfry

196 posts

99 months

Monday 21st October
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Drumroll said:
321boost said:
Also as an example of how these XR fools keep blocking the roads for drivers who are abiding by the law then what is the law regarding removing these XR protestors? If some protestor steps in front of you to block your way and verbally asking them to move does not work then can you physically force them off the road?
Of course you can, but be prepared to find yourself in court.
Also, if cameras are around (very likely during a major protest) be prepared to end up on YouTube.

Kuji

762 posts

69 months

Monday 21st October
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paintman said:
Indeed. Kenneth Noye was released in June.....
According to some people on here, you'd think he was never put away.


Breadvan72

33,215 posts

110 months

Monday 21st October
quotequote all
Kuji said:
According to some people on here, you'd think he was never put away.
Some people here seem to revere a certain variety of criminal hard man, and/or a certain variety of mentally ill farmer with a shotgun and a grudge. PH is often said to be conservative in outlook, but is really perhaps more Ayn Rand-ish anarchist. Thus protests (even violent ones) are OK if they are in support of more petrol and less government (truckers, gilets jaunes), but not OK if they are in support of less petrol and more government (XR).

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 21st October 11:19

irocfan

21,091 posts

137 months

Monday 21st October
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Breadvan72 said:
The protester here is being a bit of a knob, but suggestions of violence against him or other protesters (made with varying amounts of tongue in cheek) are OTT if not made in jest.

As to protesters generally, many PHers appear a bit authoritarian in outlook, despite being all about personal freedom when it comes to driving.
not convinced TBH - if people want to protest have at it. Protest to your heart's content - however to block public highways for days on end really isn't on. What do you think that reaction of the authorities would be if all V8 owners were to block central London in protest for A.N.Other reason? I think most people feel their feet wouldn't touch the ground.

If XR want to protest, great - but leave the roads free.


WRT Tony Martin it's an awkward one. Did he do wrong? Yes! Was it understandable? Also, YES! The concern I have is that if the powers that be are/appear too soft on protesters or crims then there may be more incidents in the future which is good for no-one

Graveworm

2,650 posts

18 months

Monday 21st October
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Derek Smith said:
Isn't that what the demonstrator is doing? He's stopping a car ignoring a keep left sign.

He's right in what he says. It's open to argument whether he's doing it the right way.
The car has already contravened the keep left it's not a continuing offence. At that point the car may possibly be guilty of careless driving etc but not contravening a keep left.
His blocking the road, for the Volvo, and in turn traffic trying trying to exit the junction or travelling in the opposite direction is probably made out highway obstruction - the more serious offence of the 2.

Edited by Graveworm on Monday 21st October 11:01

Jagmanv12

1,497 posts

111 months

Monday 21st October
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For the XR protestors the authorities should bring out water cannons and give them a good soaking. It would save the cost of policing. Also probably court time as most protesters would leave and not get arrested.

V10leptoquark

5,134 posts

164 months

Monday 21st October
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OP - the answer is to fit bull bars to the front of one's vehicle wink

CAPP0

15,474 posts

150 months

Monday 21st October
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I must admit, I do think that if they glue themselves to an immovable structure, a building or whatever, then just put a small cordon around them and leave them there. Maybe call them the 21st century version of the stocks.

sgtBerbatov

1,674 posts

28 months

Monday 21st October
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ElectricPics said:
He's a serial bell end and militant cyclist that does this all the time. Yes, the Volvo driver is completely in the wrong but this knob says he's not breaking the law but in fact he is by obstructing the traffic legitimately using that carriageway. Two wrongs etc. I honestly hope he picks on the wrong person one day.
When this last happened in Birmingham, West Midlands Police came out and said that yes it was illegal to obstruct traffic but they used their discretion to allow the protest to continue. While they just stood there and watched.

So, given that precedent, using reasonable force in that event might get your collar felt by the police if they've decided to allow it to continue.

Which is nice.

Not.

Mandalore

1,552 posts

60 months

Monday 21st October
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V10leptoquark said:
OP - the answer is to fit bull bars to the front of one's vehicle wink
wink



Breadvan72

33,215 posts

110 months

Monday 21st October
quotequote all
Jagmanv12 said:
For the XR protestors the authorities should bring out water cannons and give them a good soaking. It would save the cost of policing. Also probably court time as most protesters would leave and not get arrested.
I am glad that the UK is a place where water cannons are not used. Wannabe authoritarian Boris Johnson spaffed shedloads of public cash up the wall on water cannons when he was Mayor of London. Theresa May as Home Secretary had the sense to tell Johnson that water cannons are not a thing in the UK, and Johnson then sold them, at a large loss to the public purse.

Johnson had more success in upholding in Court restrictions on Occupy protests in Parliament Square, but that might possibly have been because I and a colleague (who is much better than me) represented Johnson in that case. I could not possibly comment! We had previously successfully represented the Home Secretary in another such challenge (that was about anti-Iraq war protests). Limited restrictions on protest, subject to judicial scrutiny, can be OK, but blanket bans are probably a no no.


321boost

253 posts

17 months

Monday 21st October
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Breadvan72 said:
Some people here seem to revere a certain variety of criminal hard man, and/or a certain variety of mentally ill farmer with a shotgun and a grudge. PH is often said to be conservative in outlook, but is really perhaps more Ayn Rand-ish anarchist. Thus protests (even violent ones) are OK if they are in support of more petrol and less government (truckers, gilets jaunes), but not OK if they are in support of less petrol and more government (XR).

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 21st October 11:19
What did you expect? This is a car forum and the car is almost always blamed or ‘shown’ to be the only cause of all pollution so of course there’s going to be a bias towards support of people/protestors who are pro-cars and rightly so.

Regarding my comment about cars being blamed, have a look at a recent BBC article about air pollution, the first thing you see is a picture of a car exhaust possibly right after a cold start where steam is coming out

Edited by 321boost on Monday 21st October 13:22

Breadvan72

33,215 posts

110 months

Monday 21st October
quotequote all
You say rightly so, but is that the case? I am mahoosive a car fan, but I recognise that cars have many downsides. The fossil fuel driven internal combustion engine should have been phased out ages ago, but geopolitics and business interests have kept it coughing on for longer than was a good idea. Of course aeroplanes, and factories in China, and plastic bags, and all of that stuff are massive factors too, but we cannot exonerate cars altogether.

Psycho Warren

374 posts

60 months

Monday 21st October
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They have a right to peaceful protest, NOT to obstruct the highway or cause criminal damage. These XR ecoTards have been banned from london for a reason - they refuse to protest peacefully.

Police should use thier full powers to remove them.


Breadvan72

33,215 posts

110 months

Monday 21st October
quotequote all
Blocking a road is an annoying thing to do (it is supposed to be annoying, that's the point) but it is not the same as violence. Criminal damage should of course be prosecuted where the evidence is available. Pre-emptive blanket banning is throwing an important and hard won civil liberties baby out with the bathwater.

If we ban protest by people we disagree with, what happens if something then comes along that we want to protest about? Say, a ban on cars, for example?

irocfan

21,091 posts

137 months

Monday 21st October
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Breadvan72 said:
Blocking a road is an annoying thing to do (it is supposed to be annoying, that's the point) but it is not the same as violence. Criminal damage should of course be prosecuted where the evidence is available. Pre-emptive blanket banning is throwing an important and hard won civil liberties baby out with the bathwater.

If we ban protest by people we disagree with, what happens if something then comes along that we want to protest about? Say, a ban on cars, for example?
I think the issue is, however, it does seem to be disproportionate. As I mentioned earlier if all V8 owners (for a silly example) were to try and bring London to a standstill in protest at: the shocking state of our roads, the price of petrol, the price of insurance, the (seeming) disinterest of the police in vehicle theft/vandalism we'd get a "...move along PDQ..." or start having our collars felt. It seems as if xr have abused the freedom to protest for quite some while now with less (not no) sanction

321boost

253 posts

17 months

Monday 21st October
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Breadvan72 said:
You say rightly so, but is that the case? I am mahoosive a car fan, but I recognise that cars have many downsides. The fossil fuel driven internal combustion engine should have been phased out ages ago, but geopolitics and business interests have kept it coughing on for longer than was a good idea. Of course aeroplanes, and factories in China, and plastic bags, and all of that stuff are massive factors too, but we cannot exonerate cars altogether.
I’m a massive car enthusiast too. Look at your PH garage, you’ve thoroughly enjoyed the cars you wanted and now i don’t think that it bug you that much if the ICE was killed or if the first thing you saw on a pollution related article was almost always a picture of a car’s exhaust on a cold morning. You’ve been there done that. When did you realise the ICE was at fault? What did you do about it? Have you stopped driving yet? Have you purchased an electric vehicle yet? Remember electric vehicles emit brake dust and tyre particulates too (Particulates are present in the London tube too).
For other people though, it feels like disproportionate stance against cars, so of course you will see support for pro-car protests or ideas regardless of their nature especially on a car enthusiast forum like PH.

Breadvan72

33,215 posts

110 months

Monday 21st October
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The suggestion that only someone who lives off-grid and is entirely eco-pure can have any sort of position on eco issues is too daft to need refuting. I have been of the view for ages that the ICE has overstayed its welcome. I am also aware that electrocars etc are not a panacea. Everything is a compromise, and there are no friction-free ways of interacting with the planet, but we shouldn't therefore just shrug and give up.

Killing the ICE now would bug me, not least because the cars I like are disgraceful old wrecks from ye olden days. But if it had to be done, it would have to be done. I am not saying that it has to be done quite yet, but I do wonder if holding on to it for much longer can be a good idea. I reiterate that cars are not the only or necessarily the worst problem.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 21st October 16:15

meatballs

479 posts

7 months

Monday 21st October
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Breadvan72 said:
The suggestion that only someone who lives off-grid and is entirely eco-pure can have any sort of position on eco issues is too daft to need refuting. I have been of the view for ages that the ICE has overstayed its welcome. I am also aware that electrocars etc are not a panacea. Everything is a compromise, and there are no friction-free ways of interacting with the planet, but we shouldn't therefore just shrug and give up.

Killing the ICE now would bug me, not least because the cars I like are disgraceful old wrecks from ye olden days. But if it had to be done, it would have to be done. I am not saying that it has to be done quite yet, but I do wonder if holding on to it for much longer can be a good idea. I reiterate that cars are not the only or necessarily the worst problem.

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 21st October 16:15
There is a world in the future where our emissions have decreased so much so that the few remaining ICE cars have next to no effect. Or we have wiped ourselves out.

On another note discussions about plastics/air pollution etc is completely different from CO2 and other greenhouse gas emissions and needs to be separated in all arguments.