Policeman accused of 11 speeding offences

[Greendubber]

Bigends said:

andy118run said:

jonwm said:

Seems ott - watching traffic cops there was an officer doing 150mph on the motorway to get to a report of a crash where other units were already in attendance, surely that's not classed as an genuine reason for that kind of speed?

An interesting point, though from watching various programmes - traffic cops, police interceptors et al - it does seem quite normal for them to make their way to incidents at such speeds, more often than not there seems to be other officers there when they arrive, but perhaps there are just seconds or the odd minute or so between arrivals.

I was interested in what Greendubber said earlier - maybe the officer in this case was driving above his grade. I assume the standard officer being able to drive +20 above the speed limit refers to your typical local response officer. I've certainly seen local (non roads policing) cars driven well above the +20 at times but maybe these officers have different levels or standards. In the past you would have local 'panda' cars (maybe a fiesta or Astra) and the bigger 'area' cars (maybe a BMW or similar) but they don't seem to do that now.

Certainly in Norfolk the local officers mainly seem to drive Focus or Astra estates. Not uncommon to see them flying around at well above the +20mph, though on another day you will see a couple of PCSOs in one, so I assume the level of driver in them varies widely.

Will those Focuses or Astras hit 122mph?

Yep.

[paintman]

funkyrobot said:

Derek Smith said:

There's got to be more than just that basic speeding. I would have thought they might have gone for dangerous if he wasn't qualified.

There's ample decided cases with regards the interpretation of the law, some defying logic, and most seem to support that as long as if conformed to the letter of the law, there's no problem. D&C will have a go of course later. But if it's that simple, why have CPS continued? I mean, apart from caving into pressure from a CC.

A bit tricky with the lights though, and much depends on the traffic sign.

He must have known he was going through speed cameras, so why continue?

Derek, I am disappointed. You have posted but not included a tale from policing in the old days.

I was expecting something like -

'Me and me old mucker Sgt Roger were once tasked to escort the Prince of Malaysia through London for a takeaway. Thing is, we were based 200 miles away in an industrial northern town. We were in a tuned Granada Scorpio so I said to Rog, hold on tight old boy, here we go. I gunned the old Ford for all it's worth and we did the 200 miles in 45 minutes. When we got there old Rog had a face that was as white as a sheet.

Which reminds me, we once arrested a bloke for stealing sheets from Dunelm. The story went like this ......'

You'll just have to wait for his next book....

[andy118run]

Bigends said:

Will those Focuses or Astras hit 122mph?

Parkers (may not be totally accurate...) has - Ford Focus Estate (2011 - 2018) 1.5 TDCi (120bhp) Style 5d at a max 120mph.

Obviously they may not have that engine but looking at the choices I'm thinking it's the most likely.

[Bigends]

andy118run said:

Bigends said:

Will those Focuses or Astras hit 122mph?

Parkers (may not be totally accurate...) has - Ford Focus Estate (2011 - 2018) 1.5 TDCi (120bhp) Style 5d at a max 120mph.

Obviously they may not have that engine but looking at the choices I'm thinking it's the most likely.

So that would be redlining and some at 122mph - cant wait to find what he was going to!

[LosingGrip]

andy118run said:

An interesting point, though from watching various programmes - traffic cops, police interceptors et al - it does seem quite normal for them to make their way to incidents at such speeds, more often than not there seems to be other officers there when they arrive, but perhaps there are just seconds or the odd minute or so between arrivals.

I was interested in what Greendubber said earlier - maybe the officer in this case was driving above his grade. I assume the standard officer being able to drive +20 above the speed limit refers to your typical local response officer. I've certainly seen local (non roads policing) cars driven well above the +20 at times but maybe these officers have different levels or standards. In the past you would have local 'panda' cars (maybe a fiesta or Astra) and the bigger 'area' cars (maybe a BMW or similar) but they don't seem to do that now.

Certainly in Norfolk the local officers mainly seem to drive Focus or Astra estates. Not uncommon to see them flying around at well above the +20mph, though on another day you will see a couple of PCSOs in one, so I assume the level of driver in them varies widely.

Not every force has that policy. We used to (other than NSL which was up to 30MPH over I believe). It's now not restricted as long as it's safe, necessary, legal etc.

[edthefed]

Many forces have "black box" recording devices fitted in patrol cars that identify excess speed, over revving etc.
Speed above a certain limit is automatically reported to the Discipline dept.
Engine damage suspected to have been caused by bad driving is also subject of discipline enquiries

[Mr Trophy]

Greendubber said:

Derek Smith said:

LosingGrip said:

Be interesting to see the reasons behind it.

There's more to this than meets the eye. I have the suspicion that he hadn't got the necessary authority to speed according to the force's regs. I can't see that negating the exemptions written in law, but you never know.

Odd.

Looking at the speeds I reckon hes driving out of his grade, a standard driver in my force can only do +20mph. As you say its policy and not law though, maybe he's only a basic driver.

Who knows but I'm glad I'm not in his shoes

I've never heard of this before - that's quite incredible.

So if they're answering a "grade 1" they can't go 20mph over the speed limit?

[XCP]

Not like when we had Allegros going through 'gold seal' engines on a regular basis then...one had 6 engines fitted IIRC.

[Greendubber]

Mr Trophy said:

Greendubber said:

Derek Smith said:

LosingGrip said:

Be interesting to see the reasons behind it.

There's more to this than meets the eye. I have the suspicion that he hadn't got the necessary authority to speed according to the force's regs. I can't see that negating the exemptions written in law, but you never know.

Odd.

Looking at the speeds I reckon hes driving out of his grade, a standard driver in my force can only do +20mph. As you say its policy and not law though, maybe he's only a basic driver.

Who knows but I'm glad I'm not in his shoes

I've never heard of this before - that's quite incredible.

So if they're answering a "grade 1" they can't go 20mph over the speed limit?

Yes, exactly that. Standard blue light policy is +20mph so imagine trying to make any meaningful progress on a motorway or DC where most people are doing a similar speed. You end up feeling like you're crawling past them.

[Graveworm]

Greendubber said:

Yes, exactly that. Standard blue light policy is +20mph so imagine trying to make any meaningful progress on a motorway or DC where most people are doing a similar speed. You end up feeling like you're crawling past them.

We bought in most of our driver training and at one point one force (Named after a feature caused by a big river) even capped Advanced courses at 130.. without telling us!

[peterperkins]

You could argue a force policy as to limiting speed when a vehicle is being used for legitimate and proportional Police purposes is incompatible with the law.
The law places no restrictions on the speed allowed in such genuine circumstances..

If the vehicle was being used for legitimate police purposes then you would could not get done for speeding even if you were not trained in any way.
However you might well get done for an internal disciplinary offences, fail to adhere to force policy bla bla.

Of course if you crash etc it's a whole different ball game.

Plumber and special constable Joe Smith jumps into a random car and speeds after al qaeda/murder suspect.
Perfectly lawful use of exemptions... Force policies don't trump lawful exemptions. Each case would be judged on it's merits.
However massive breaches of all force policies etc HR/Traffic go into meltdown.

[Derek Smith]

paintman said:

funkyrobot said:

Derek Smith said:

There's got to be more than just that basic speeding. I would have thought they might have gone for dangerous if he wasn't qualified.

There's ample decided cases with regards the interpretation of the law, some defying logic, and most seem to support that as long as if conformed to the letter of the law, there's no problem. D&C will have a go of course later. But if it's that simple, why have CPS continued? I mean, apart from caving into pressure from a CC.

A bit tricky with the lights though, and much depends on the traffic sign.

He must have known he was going through speed cameras, so why continue?

Derek, I am disappointed. You have posted but not included a tale from policing in the old days.

I was expecting something like -

'Me and me old mucker Sgt Roger were once tasked to escort the Prince of Malaysia through London for a takeaway. Thing is, we were based 200 miles away in an industrial northern town. We were in a tuned Granada Scorpio so I said to Rog, hold on tight old boy, here we go. I gunned the old Ford for all it's worth and we did the 200 miles in 45 minutes. When we got there old Rog had a face that was as white as a sheet.

Which reminds me, we once arrested a bloke for stealing sheets from Dunelm. The story went like this ......'

You'll just have to wait for his next book....

My next book is published.

I'm not sure why FR should think I use the terminology in their post. I'm not sure I understand it. I write such stories, in good English in the main, as every time someone comments on my storytelling and my writing is mentioned on PH, my sales increase, and odd though it seems, not only of my Forces books (both well reviewed). It has to be a popular thread, or one long lived, for it to increase enough for me to be sure on the Kindle stats. If I mention one of my stories, so much the better.

The current norm is a fraction under one sale a day, although there's often a peak of four or five, once over 40, so I think I will top 400 in the 12 months to April. Maybe a higher milestone number. I've been waiting to mention my week with Lovejoy and my row with McShane, but it's faded into the mists of time.

I had a sergeant named Roger. He was very intelligent, which is why he stayed as a sergeant, and used to do The Times crossword every day. I was sitting with him one morning and he did his normal bit of running his pencil down the clues, and he came to one and wrote the answer in immediately. I couldn't work it out even with the answer and I asked the reasoning. It was obvious, only when explained though.

It's a wonder anyone liked him.

Hold on, the till has just gone 'ding'. Thanks for mentioning my stories.

[gshughes]

Derek Smith said:

I've been waiting to mention my week with Lovejoy and my row with McShane, but it's faded into the mists of time.

You've piqued my curiosity now, would be interested to hear as much as you can remember.

I enjoy the stories, so don't let the misanthropes put you off. I have been meaning to buy a book or two for a while, so maybe they have got you another sale!

[Derek Smith]

gshughes said:

Derek Smith said:

I've been waiting to mention my week with Lovejoy and my row with McShane, but it's faded into the mists of time.

You've piqued my curiosity now, would be interested to hear as much as you can remember.

I enjoy the stories, so don't let the misanthropes put you off. I have been meaning to buy a book or two for a while, so maybe they have got you another sale!

You asked; wonderful.

I was I charge of my force’s driving school. An inspector’s wife (so many stories start that way) supplied vehicles to TV production companies. It is cutthroat and she’d had her drivers pinched. They needed someone with experience with a dolly and A-frame. It was a week’s job on Lovejoy.

Who wouldn’t jump at the chance?

I took a Shogun to somewhere in Cambridgeshire and ended up in a farmyard. There were girls in short skirts, nylons and high heels and farmers.

They knew I was inexperienced and I had to make out I wasn’t without knowing what to do and where.

I picked up the 449-mile BMW 5-series from a garage, tied it to the dolly at the back of the Shogun and took the sound-crew, McShane’s stand in, “The only difference between the two,” said a soundman. “Is that the stand-in knows the script.” for a couple of runs.

Day 4 and it was time for shooting. There was no rush it seemed. They strapped a massive camera to the bonnet of the BMW and it curved down under the weight and we went for a couple of practice runs with an assistant to the cameraman (otherwise known as a bit above god). All ready to go, I parked the ‘rig’, as they called it, and awaited McShane.

Out he came with his bodyguard. McShane sat in the driver’s seat, his bodyguard in the passenger seat. I had to go through instructions as what they should do, what they should not do. I told McS to put on his seatbelt. The bodyguard then spoke the same words and McS nodded. Having him repeat my instructions and McS giving replies to him was the procedure despite me being closer to McS that anyone else.

I told him, as I was told to, to hold the steering wheel lightly and allow it to pull his hands. Don’t put the car in gear and do not, whatever you do, brake. He said to his bodyguard, ‘What happens if I do brake?’ Said bodyguard said it to me. I said, ‘I don’t know, just don’t do it.’

He threw off his seatbelt, the metal bit nearly hitting me. He said. ‘I’m used to working with professionals’ and went to get out of the car.

It was clear that he’d been told I was a know-nothing know-nothing, but I’d been told to play up to being laid back and experienced. I blocked him getting out of the car and put my head close to his.

I said, ‘I’m used to working with professionals as well. Perhaps that’s why I don’t know what happens if someone’s silly enough to stamp on the brakes when I’ve told them not to.’

He went to push me away but I’d already moved. I opened the car door fully and gestured him to leave. He went off in a huff. His bodyguard came up to me and I winked at him.

A sound guy, the team joked all the time, they were great, said, ‘I guess that means filming’s over for the day,’ in a jolly tone, and smiled at me.

I disconnected everything, gave the car keys to a bloke whose job seemed to be to do everything, and drove back in the Shogun.

I was wondering if I’d gone too far, but the inspector’s wife was smiling as I parked it and said that apologies had been forthcoming. I didn’t have to go back the next day as, I was told, I was furious with the way I’d been treated. Her normal crew were back on Monday. I got 5 day’s pay for 4 day’s work.

If I had my choice of job again, I’d be in film/TV production. I found it rather exciting.

[Red 4]

peterperkins said:

You could argue a force policy as to limiting speed when a vehicle is being used for legitimate and proportional Police purposes is incompatible with the law.
The law places no restrictions on the speed allowed in such genuine circumstances..

If the vehicle was being used for legitimate police purposes then you would could not get done for speeding even if you were not trained in any way.
.

My mate got binned off traffic for travelling at warp speed when responding to a job.
Speed was, er, well, quite high.
Flashed by a speed camera. 30 MPH limit.
No prosecution.
He came back. Eventually.

[Graveworm]

peterperkins said:

You could argue a force policy as to limiting speed when a vehicle is being used for legitimate and proportional Police purposes is incompatible with the law.
The law places no restrictions on the speed allowed in such genuine circumstances..

If the vehicle was being used for legitimate police purposes then you would could not get done for speeding even if you were not trained in any way.

Untrained drivers are no longer (Since 2005) exempt from speed limits so they could "Get done" for speeding.

[Red 4]

Graveworm said:

peterperkins said:

You could argue a force policy as to limiting speed when a vehicle is being used for legitimate and proportional Police purposes is incompatible with the law.
The law places no restrictions on the speed allowed in such genuine circumstances..

If the vehicle was being used for legitimate police purposes then you would could not get done for speeding even if you were not trained in any way.

Untrained drivers are no longer (Since 2005) exempt from speed limits so they could "Get done" for speeding.

Correct.
Well, almost. If the "untrained" driver is undergoing training then they are exempt from speed limits.
PH - pedantry matters.

[Dibble]

We used to have the “+20mph above red ring limits and NSL” for standard class drivers, but it got binned a few years back.

[Shuvi McTupya]

Derek Smith said:

If I had my choice of job again, I’d be in film/TV production. I found it rather exciting.

Nice story.

I am trying to get my head around Ian Mcshane having a bodyguard on set with him. I did TV and film work for a couple of years (action vehicles) and I wasn't ever aware of anyone having personal 'protection' while on location.

I did have a funny experience when I was new and just wanted to stay out of the way as much as possible. ( I had been advised not to bother the actors, and just keep my head down until i learned the ropes). The show I was sent too (Green Wing) was set in a hospital, I just hung back and drank tea/chatted with the hospital car park attendant/security guard guy and watched the proceedings from a distance.

It wasnt until i watched the show when it was aired that it dawned on me that the security guard wasn't a security guard at all, he was a regular on the show and I was just just completely sucked in by the fact he was wearing a uniform! I have no idea whether he knew that I thought he was just the security guard.

I enjoyed that industry too, but boy was there a lot of waiting around!

[Derek Smith]

Shuvi McTupya said:

Nice story.

I am trying to get my head around Ian Mcshane having a bodyguard on set with him. I did TV and film work for a couple of years (action vehicles) and I wasn't ever aware of anyone having personal 'protection' while on location.

I did have a funny experience when I was new and just wanted to stay out of the way as much as possible. ( I had been advised not to bother the actors, and just keep my head down until i learned the ropes). The show I was sent too (Green Wing) was set in a hospital, I just hung back and drank tea/chatted with the hospital car park attendant/security guard guy and watched the proceedings from a distance.

It wasnt until i watched the show when it was aired that it dawned on me that the security guard wasn't a security guard at all, he was a regular on the show and I was just just completely sucked in by the fact he was wearing a uniform! I have no idea whether he knew that I thought he was just the security guard.

I enjoyed that industry too, but boy was there a lot of waiting around!

Perhaps bodyguard was a bit strong. Maybe minder would be a bit better. He wasn't a tall bloke, but was rather large.

McShane seemed to love it, being brought out only for filming. He didn't seem to be well-liked, at least by the sound men and his stooge.

There was one bit of filming in the four days I was there. It was outdoors and the weather was a bit of a problem. McS and his sidekick exited a hall and walked a few steps, with some dialogue. It was the matter of a few seconds. There was the construction of a little railway line, then it was moved. Everything seemed set and McS's stand-in walked through the scene while someone sat on the trolley as it moved along the rails. In control was a bloke I assumed was the director, with a hard-faced assistant who was forever writing in a notepad.

This went on all morning. McS came out, but not to act but to watch the trial run. Some discussions went on and everything was moved over. There was a fair bit of tutting, but quietly. Then another trial. Everyone seemed satisfied. I worked out why the move. McS was now required to walk along a raised bit of ground next to the path. All of a sudden, he would have grown a couple of inches.

Then things got busy, with the stars by the door. Everyone was suddenly alert, sharp and looking efficient. Out came a rather plump chap who sat on the dolly. Here was someone special. He was in charge of the camera.

There was a run-through and then there were shouts of quiet, a wait while an airplane went over, and the actors acted.They then acted again and finally they acted a third time. The camera bloke sort of nodded to the director (probably) and then everyone went back to normal. They seemed pleased that the camera chap had been, it seemed, pleased with the setup.

It was around 3pm, but that was it, over for the day (or as we, who are big in the film industry call it, a wrap).

I watched the Lovejoy series and recognised the outside of the building in one episode. Lovejoy went in on his own (I missed that bit of filming) but the bit with him coming out was cut it seems. Oddly, I felt let down.

As you say, there was an awful lot of doing nothing.

Action Vehicles. That rings a bell. Was one of the people in charge a woman from Sussex?

There were different suppliers of vehicles for Lovejoy. One was a motorcycle combination with a Kawasaki 500 twin as the bike. I was to be taken in it to pick up the BMW. The rider was unable to start the thing and said that it ran from wherever it was parked without problem that morning. The implication being someone had fiddled with it.

I had built my own Triton, so felt capable of discovering what was wrong. The points cover had obviously been recently opened so I examined the points to find that they were fully closed. I set them to a gap equivalent of a piece of paper and the bike fired up. I was dropped off at the dealers, I was told to treat the 449-mile BMW 6-cylinder with care (of course I would) and sent on my way.

I was going round a fast, open left-handed bend. I could see for quite a distance and spotted a Sierra that was the set's hack, but was too good to be used to take me to Cambridge it seemed. I slowed, stopped, and the Sierra pulled up beside me. The general dogsbody was in the car. He called across to me, "Where are you?" I looked up into the sky and said, "Somewhere in East Anglia." He told me to save the jokes and to see him back at the set.

I shot off and got there well before he did. About 30 mins later I was attaching the BMW to the trolley when the bloke came up to me and said. "I've been told to apologise to you." I didn't have a clue why, but I nodded sagely. I said, "OK. We all make mistakes. I've forgotten it. We can both learn from it." and shook his hand.

I was bemused, having no idea what was going on, but the guy seemed grateful for my condescension. I asked the woman who ran the company what had happened and she said that the Kawasaki was supplied by her but through an intermediary (I don't know what I'm talking about here) and the bloke obviously thought I'd fiddled with some other company's bits. She thought someone, one of the other drivers (there was a Morris Minor and a couple of other vehicles on set) had sabotaged it.

It was exciting. There was intrigue. It was pretty cool.