Paying for work that doesn't solve problem
Discussion
Took my 1997 VW R32 Golf Mk 5 for diagnosis and repair to a local independent servicing & MOT garage following a squealing sound from the belt pulley area of the engine, when idling. Noise disappears under throttle. The nearest VW dealer is 25 miles away and did not want to risk catastrophic damage if I continued to drive it. Received a phone call later telling me the alternator bearing and idlers were worn and need replacing. I gave the go ahead trusting their judgement and agreed a price of £300 for parts and labour. Following day I receive the bad news.. They replaced the recommended parts but it did not solve the problem at all. The squealing noise remains. Appears it was not the alternator bearing after all... I asked the service dept whether the mechanic had perhaps checked the water pump bearing but he wasn't sure, but stated that he felt sure they would have done. however, in obvious justification by the garage they claim the bearing did have a lot of play anyway so would eventually need replacing iat some point so they will reduce the bill to £200 as a gesture as they had supplied and fitted new parts. I was not in the mood for an altercation as it was obvious they expected payment otherwise they wouldn't release the car so I reluctantly paid the £200.
It seems their diagnsosis was incorrect and I have had work done that wasn't needed... and I am no further forward in solving the problem I have now arranged for transfer of the vehicle to the VW garage for resolution and more cost...
What is the situtation regarding the payment of £200.. AS a bona fida MOT servicing station, I trusted their diagnosis, otherwise why would anyone have any work done there. I have paid £200 as a result of their professional diagnosis but they failed to solve the problmem as the fault is obviously with another component.
It seems their diagnsosis was incorrect and I have had work done that wasn't needed... and I am no further forward in solving the problem I have now arranged for transfer of the vehicle to the VW garage for resolution and more cost...
What is the situtation regarding the payment of £200.. AS a bona fida MOT servicing station, I trusted their diagnosis, otherwise why would anyone have any work done there. I have paid £200 as a result of their professional diagnosis but they failed to solve the problmem as the fault is obviously with another component.
razorzz said:
I have now arranged for transfer of the vehicle to the VW garage for resolution and more cost...
ETA: Took the year at face value but I guess it should be 2007. Still brave.
Edited by Sheepshanks on Wednesday 4th December 22:35
razorzz said:
Took my 1997 VW R32 Golf Mk 5 for diagnosis and repair to a local independent servicing & MOT garage following a squealing sound from the belt pulley area of the engine, when idling. Noise disappears under throttle. The nearest VW dealer is 25 miles away and did not want to risk catastrophic damage if I continued to drive it. Received a phone call later telling me the alternator bearing and idlers were worn and need replacing. I gave the go ahead trusting their judgement and agreed a price of £300 for parts and labour. Following day I receive the bad news.. They replaced the recommended parts but it did not solve the problem at all. The squealing noise remains. Appears it was not the alternator bearing after all... I asked the service dept whether the mechanic had perhaps checked the water pump bearing but he wasn't sure, but stated that he felt sure they would have done. however, in obvious justification by the garage they claim the bearing did have a lot of play anyway so would eventually need replacing iat some point so they will reduce the bill to £200 as a gesture as they had supplied and fitted new parts. I was not in the mood for an altercation as it was obvious they expected payment otherwise they wouldn't release the car so I reluctantly paid the £200.
It seems their diagnsosis was incorrect and I have had work done that wasn't needed... and I am no further forward in solving the problem I have now arranged for transfer of the vehicle to the VW garage for resolution and more cost...
What is the situtation regarding the payment of £200.. AS a bona fida MOT servicing station, I trusted their diagnosis, otherwise why would anyone have any work done there. I have paid £200 as a result of their professional diagnosis but they failed to solve the problmem as the fault is obviously with another component.
You want your money back.But you paid them!It seems their diagnsosis was incorrect and I have had work done that wasn't needed... and I am no further forward in solving the problem I have now arranged for transfer of the vehicle to the VW garage for resolution and more cost...
What is the situtation regarding the payment of £200.. AS a bona fida MOT servicing station, I trusted their diagnosis, otherwise why would anyone have any work done there. I have paid £200 as a result of their professional diagnosis but they failed to solve the problmem as the fault is obviously with another component.
OP, I would be asking for your old parts back at the very least. At least you can then check to see if what they were saying is correct and maybe have a spare alternator.
You could even put the old one back on and then you have a new spare. I'm sure changing the alternator is not the most complex job.
Rather than a VW main dealer, are there any specialist near you? I would think finding a local specialist will work out much better than the main dealer. They are difficult to find though.
Anyway, hope you get it sorted.
You could even put the old one back on and then you have a new spare. I'm sure changing the alternator is not the most complex job.
Rather than a VW main dealer, are there any specialist near you? I would think finding a local specialist will work out much better than the main dealer. They are difficult to find though.
Anyway, hope you get it sorted.
Whoops.. that should have been 2007 not 1997... To be fair I have had the R32 since new and serviced throughout by the same VW dealer and I have never had a problem. Its been one of the most reliable cars I have ever had. They have kept it going for 145,000miles with no issues and relative low cost. Perhap it helps that I know the workshop manager very well.
Only once had a problem with another independent garage a few years back who fitted the wrong spark plugs for the car and they lost the locking wheel nut when they changed a front spring. They had no option but to fit the correct spark plugs and they paid for a new set of locking nuts too.. In this instance I didn't want to risk driving the car across 20 miles with the risk of catastrophic damage if it was something more sinister. As it now happens I have driven the vehicle 300yards past the garage and parked it up. LV breakdown relay pick it up and take it across to the VW dealer for no charge as the vehicle is more than 3 miles away from home. I told LV breakdown there is a closer garage ( the one I used but they don't know that) and I would prefer them to take it to a VW main dealer and they are ok with that.. so I will find out the real problem tomorrow and I will be passing some of the bill back to the independent dealer.
The sale of Goods Act ( what was) still applies. They are a registered garage and as such they are expected to take it upon themselves to carry out effective diagnosis or repair to customers vehicles to resolve a problem successfully once their professional recommndation has been given. If they decline to take on the work, that is there right and there is no charge. But if in their infinite wisdom they fail to diagnose the problem correctly and offer to carry out the work or make a miss diagnosis which creates additional unecessary work and additional cost, the customer has a right to redress. Garages are not exempt. It may well be a small claims issue.. What thay have a right to do of course, at their own expense, is to refit the old parts into the same working order it was prior to attempting a repair and seeking a refund form their parts suppier. But that is their problem... Watch this space.. i love a good spat in the SCC. I have won 4 cases over the years against Comet, Currys, a wheel refurbisher in Exeter and a local council parking attendent who put a fraudulent time on a parking ticket claiming I was seen at a particular time, when I proved I couldn't possibly be there at that time as I had official documentation (time stamped) that proved I was elsewhere 10 miles away 3 minutes before the time on the ticket. And no my old R32 may be capable of 155mph but it would need to be closer to 210 mph non stop to get there in time. It a beautiful feeling when you win your case. You should try it. Comet, and Dixons legal team didn't even turn up and as far as I know the Council parking guy was instantly dismissed for fraud.
Only once had a problem with another independent garage a few years back who fitted the wrong spark plugs for the car and they lost the locking wheel nut when they changed a front spring. They had no option but to fit the correct spark plugs and they paid for a new set of locking nuts too.. In this instance I didn't want to risk driving the car across 20 miles with the risk of catastrophic damage if it was something more sinister. As it now happens I have driven the vehicle 300yards past the garage and parked it up. LV breakdown relay pick it up and take it across to the VW dealer for no charge as the vehicle is more than 3 miles away from home. I told LV breakdown there is a closer garage ( the one I used but they don't know that) and I would prefer them to take it to a VW main dealer and they are ok with that.. so I will find out the real problem tomorrow and I will be passing some of the bill back to the independent dealer.
The sale of Goods Act ( what was) still applies. They are a registered garage and as such they are expected to take it upon themselves to carry out effective diagnosis or repair to customers vehicles to resolve a problem successfully once their professional recommndation has been given. If they decline to take on the work, that is there right and there is no charge. But if in their infinite wisdom they fail to diagnose the problem correctly and offer to carry out the work or make a miss diagnosis which creates additional unecessary work and additional cost, the customer has a right to redress. Garages are not exempt. It may well be a small claims issue.. What thay have a right to do of course, at their own expense, is to refit the old parts into the same working order it was prior to attempting a repair and seeking a refund form their parts suppier. But that is their problem... Watch this space.. i love a good spat in the SCC. I have won 4 cases over the years against Comet, Currys, a wheel refurbisher in Exeter and a local council parking attendent who put a fraudulent time on a parking ticket claiming I was seen at a particular time, when I proved I couldn't possibly be there at that time as I had official documentation (time stamped) that proved I was elsewhere 10 miles away 3 minutes before the time on the ticket. And no my old R32 may be capable of 155mph but it would need to be closer to 210 mph non stop to get there in time. It a beautiful feeling when you win your case. You should try it. Comet, and Dixons legal team didn't even turn up and as far as I know the Council parking guy was instantly dismissed for fraud.
razorzz said:
Whoops.. that should have been 2007 not 1997... To be fair I have had the R32 since new and serviced throughout by the same VW dealer and I have never had a problem. Its been one of the most reliable cars I have ever had. They have kept it going for 145,000miles with no issues and relative low cost. Perhap it helps that I know the workshop manager very well.
Only once had a problem with another independent garage a few years back who fitted the wrong spark plugs for the car and they lost the locking wheel nut when they changed a front spring. They had no option but to fit the correct spark plugs and they paid for a new set of locking nuts too.. In this instance I didn't want to risk driving the car across 20 miles with the risk of catastrophic damage if it was something more sinister. As it now happens I have driven the vehicle 300yards past the garage and parked it up. LV breakdown relay pick it up and take it across to the VW dealer for no charge as the vehicle is more than 3 miles away from home. I told LV breakdown there is a closer garage ( the one I used but they don't know that) and I would prefer them to take it to a VW main dealer and they are ok with that.. so I will find out the real problem tomorrow and I will be passing some of the bill back to the independent dealer.
The sale of Goods Act ( what was) still applies. They are a registered garage and as such they are expected to take it upon themselves to carry out effective diagnosis or repair to customers vehicles to resolve a problem successfully once their professional recommndation has been given. If they decline to take on the work, that is there right and there is no charge. But if in their infinite wisdom they fail to diagnose the problem correctly and offer to carry out the work or make a miss diagnosis which creates additional unecessary work and additional cost, the customer has a right to redress. Garages are not exempt. It may well be a small claims issue.. What thay have a right to do of course, at their own expense, is to refit the old parts into the same working order it was prior to attempting a repair and seeking a refund form their parts suppier. But that is their problem... Watch this space.. i love a good spat in the SCC. I have won 4 cases over the years against Comet, Currys, a wheel refurbisher in Exeter and a local council parking attendent who put a fraudulent time on a parking ticket claiming I was seen at a particular time, when I proved I couldn't possibly be there at that time as I had official documentation (time stamped) that proved I was elsewhere 10 miles away 3 minutes before the time on the ticket. And no my old R32 may be capable of 155mph but it would need to be closer to 210 mph non stop to get there in time. It a beautiful feeling when you win your case. You should try it. Comet, and Dixons legal team didn't even turn up and as far as I know the Council parking guy was instantly dismissed for fraud.
It becomes obvious why you don't post much...Only once had a problem with another independent garage a few years back who fitted the wrong spark plugs for the car and they lost the locking wheel nut when they changed a front spring. They had no option but to fit the correct spark plugs and they paid for a new set of locking nuts too.. In this instance I didn't want to risk driving the car across 20 miles with the risk of catastrophic damage if it was something more sinister. As it now happens I have driven the vehicle 300yards past the garage and parked it up. LV breakdown relay pick it up and take it across to the VW dealer for no charge as the vehicle is more than 3 miles away from home. I told LV breakdown there is a closer garage ( the one I used but they don't know that) and I would prefer them to take it to a VW main dealer and they are ok with that.. so I will find out the real problem tomorrow and I will be passing some of the bill back to the independent dealer.
The sale of Goods Act ( what was) still applies. They are a registered garage and as such they are expected to take it upon themselves to carry out effective diagnosis or repair to customers vehicles to resolve a problem successfully once their professional recommndation has been given. If they decline to take on the work, that is there right and there is no charge. But if in their infinite wisdom they fail to diagnose the problem correctly and offer to carry out the work or make a miss diagnosis which creates additional unecessary work and additional cost, the customer has a right to redress. Garages are not exempt. It may well be a small claims issue.. What thay have a right to do of course, at their own expense, is to refit the old parts into the same working order it was prior to attempting a repair and seeking a refund form their parts suppier. But that is their problem... Watch this space.. i love a good spat in the SCC. I have won 4 cases over the years against Comet, Currys, a wheel refurbisher in Exeter and a local council parking attendent who put a fraudulent time on a parking ticket claiming I was seen at a particular time, when I proved I couldn't possibly be there at that time as I had official documentation (time stamped) that proved I was elsewhere 10 miles away 3 minutes before the time on the ticket. And no my old R32 may be capable of 155mph but it would need to be closer to 210 mph non stop to get there in time. It a beautiful feeling when you win your case. You should try it. Comet, and Dixons legal team didn't even turn up and as far as I know the Council parking guy was instantly dismissed for fraud.
I was trying to see if anyone else has had a similar problem in paying for work that wasn't necessary and what was the result
As far as paying the £200 is concerned, the problem often is that you want to try and avoid an altercation or argument which has every chance of erupting when in their garage especially when there are often other customers nearby. Without causing intended offence to the person behind the couter, you are in their territory, where they feel safer in putting forward their justifications and most staff behind independent garage counters are not the brighest sparks in the box in constructing reasoned argument. When they feel their position is challenged and under pressure from the customers reasoned argument they tend to raise the ante along with their voices and the atmosphere becomes tense and has every chance of descending into an argument rather than a discussion.. Evereone has been through that situation. It all too easily gets dragged into a row over who said what to whom.. That solves nothing and only makes the situation far worse.. I noticed the warning signals when the defensive arguments came out as to why I should still pay for the alternator bearing.
Unfortunatley I had my daughter with me (16) and I didn't want her exposed to a fractious situation which had every chance of developing. Its better to pay the £200 under (polite) duress and then make officlal written representations about why they should refund the costs and take back the parts and refit the old later on.
I will be doing that tomorrow.. Its better to construct a reasoned argument outlining all the facts in writing. When in direct face to face discussions, emotions can get in the way and cloud the argument. that does nothing but raise blood pressures and go down the cave man route of pyschologically beating the other guy and winning nothing..
I would still like to know of other members similar experiences...
As far as paying the £200 is concerned, the problem often is that you want to try and avoid an altercation or argument which has every chance of erupting when in their garage especially when there are often other customers nearby. Without causing intended offence to the person behind the couter, you are in their territory, where they feel safer in putting forward their justifications and most staff behind independent garage counters are not the brighest sparks in the box in constructing reasoned argument. When they feel their position is challenged and under pressure from the customers reasoned argument they tend to raise the ante along with their voices and the atmosphere becomes tense and has every chance of descending into an argument rather than a discussion.. Evereone has been through that situation. It all too easily gets dragged into a row over who said what to whom.. That solves nothing and only makes the situation far worse.. I noticed the warning signals when the defensive arguments came out as to why I should still pay for the alternator bearing.
Unfortunatley I had my daughter with me (16) and I didn't want her exposed to a fractious situation which had every chance of developing. Its better to pay the £200 under (polite) duress and then make officlal written representations about why they should refund the costs and take back the parts and refit the old later on.
I will be doing that tomorrow.. Its better to construct a reasoned argument outlining all the facts in writing. When in direct face to face discussions, emotions can get in the way and cloud the argument. that does nothing but raise blood pressures and go down the cave man route of pyschologically beating the other guy and winning nothing..
I would still like to know of other members similar experiences...
Complex? Is it really? Finding the source of a noise shouldn't be too difficult, not for a competent person at least. If the garage had said "this may or may not be the cause of the issue, all we can do is go by a process of elimination", then you could say that. But from reading this, the garage has said "this is definitely the cause, changing this part will fix it".
Regardless of what they said, how would it hold up in court? He paid to have his car repaired, the garage have not done so, but have charged him for parts and labour on something that did not solve the issue.
Regardless of what they said, how would it hold up in court? He paid to have his car repaired, the garage have not done so, but have charged him for parts and labour on something that did not solve the issue.
How do you know the alternator bearing and idlers wern't knackered? You have made a vast amount of assumprions, your car is oldm, out of warrenty and any fault won't be clear cut, noises bounce around engine etc, you could spend hours trying to resolve faults.
it is never as simple as its x replace it, the vast majority, it is suck it and see.
it is never as simple as its x replace it, the vast majority, it is suck it and see.
Thesprucegoose said:
How do you know the alternator bearing and idlers wern't knackered? You have made a vast amount of assumprions, your car is oldm, out of warrenty and any fault won't be clear cut, noises bounce around engine etc, you could spend hours trying to resolve faults.
it is never as simple as its x replace it, the vast majority, it is suck it and see.
id agree.it is never as simple as its x replace it, the vast majority, it is suck it and see.
Mechanical problems like the one the Op has cannot be identified by plugging in a laptop, and despite assurances to the contrary they don't all have a crystal ball.
Your alternator and idler probably were also on the way out, so you have likely mitigated a future fault, at a much cheaper cost than it would cost when they do fail. That's a win.
Perhaps the best bet is for the garage to put all the original broken parts back on the car and give it back.
If a car is making noises like that, then it's easy to conclude it's not been properly looked after, and in that situation you just have to change everything until you fix the problem.
Now I don't know that car, but when a cambelt is changed, you should do the full kit, including the water pump, but a lot of people are tight and do only the belt, which utterly bonkers as the belt is not the thing that causes a belt failure.....
Now I don't know that car, but when a cambelt is changed, you should do the full kit, including the water pump, but a lot of people are tight and do only the belt, which utterly bonkers as the belt is not the thing that causes a belt failure.....
razorzz said:
As it now happens I have driven the vehicle 300yards past the garage and parked it up. LV breakdown relay pick it up and take it across to the VW dealer for no charge as the vehicle is more than 3 miles away from home. I told LV breakdown there is a closer garage ( the one I used but they don't know that) and I would prefer them to take it to a VW main dealer and they are ok with that.. so I will find out the real problem tomorrow and I will be passing some of the bill back to the independent dealer.
So it's OK for you to defraud LV breakdown by driving your car out of a garage, but if someone else uses their best judgement and it turns out to be incorrect then you are a victim?I think the garage's only mistake was in not being more careful in how they worded their diagnosis - "We think it's this but can't guarantee it, do you want us to proceed?"
I think you’re being mighty unfair here, there’s a good chance they did the work in good faith expecting that it would fix your problem. It didn’t and they reduced your bill by a third.
On the other hand there are clearly specialists (not just in the car industry) that will take advantage of customers lack of knowledge to create billable work for themselves.
I personally would need some pretty stark evidence they were “ripping me off” before expecting money back or taking them to a claims court. Complex devices often require a “let’s try this and see” approach to fixing a problem. If you can get a trusted 2nd opinion, take it from there, but otherwise, take the hit in good faith.
On the other hand there are clearly specialists (not just in the car industry) that will take advantage of customers lack of knowledge to create billable work for themselves.
I personally would need some pretty stark evidence they were “ripping me off” before expecting money back or taking them to a claims court. Complex devices often require a “let’s try this and see” approach to fixing a problem. If you can get a trusted 2nd opinion, take it from there, but otherwise, take the hit in good faith.
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