A State of Lawlessness
Discussion
yonex said:
MC Bodge said:
Everybody is keen for an authoritarian regime - with punitive treatment of other people- on their own terms.
The problem is, it often doesn't work like that.
It doesn’t, it can’t. Trouble is, guys like jaguar steve have got to an age where ‘everything was better’. Of course now, everything isn’t, it’s a common misconception from those who are stuck in the past. The problem is, it often doesn't work like that.
How about we take these extended powers and to limit the dangers of driving across the board that after all the really serious stuff like number plates have been addressed we look at the older drivers?
I’ve seen far too many of them recently who shouldn’t be out. They can’t see, or react fast enough in modern traffic conditions. I therefore suggest everyone over 60 has a curfew, drive only out of rush hour and not in darkness. Probably best to restrict their cars as well, obviously we’ll tax them 3x to cover the financials?
Sound good?
I read a travel book by Steinbeck in which he wrote that people (in 1960) were nostalgic for the 1930s.
irocfan said:
MC Bodge said:
Exactly.
I read a travel book by Steinbeck in which he wrote that people (in 1960) were nostalgic for the 1930s.
given there was the dustbowl and the Great Depression in the 1930s I do find that hard to believeI read a travel book by Steinbeck in which he wrote that people (in 1960) were nostalgic for the 1930s.
He lived in New England, though.
Thing is, these offences are at the bottom of the pile. With Christ-knows how many fewer officers since 2010, this sort of offence just falls by the wayside. Roads Policing was probably the hardest hit area because a lot of motoring offences (number plates etc) aren’t a Road Safety issue.
Many forces have kept a skeleton staff to address the “fatal five” and collision investigation capacity; past that point, there’s no capacity to look at other offences.
Response Teams also get less time to deal with this sort of thing. So much pressure to deal with Vulnerability and Mental Health jobs, where slashed NHS services have shifted demand onto Police.
Add in the increased accountability and its associated bureaucracy, you’ve got this situation. Many forces aren’t even managing to meet response times for emergencies at some points during the week. It’s a very sad state of affairs.
Many forces have kept a skeleton staff to address the “fatal five” and collision investigation capacity; past that point, there’s no capacity to look at other offences.
Response Teams also get less time to deal with this sort of thing. So much pressure to deal with Vulnerability and Mental Health jobs, where slashed NHS services have shifted demand onto Police.
Add in the increased accountability and its associated bureaucracy, you’ve got this situation. Many forces aren’t even managing to meet response times for emergencies at some points during the week. It’s a very sad state of affairs.
Torquey said:
Its a shame that we need (lots of) police to keep us from doing wrong.
Surely the root problem is lack of education or/and respect.
They're not respected by young people like myself due to the fact that they bring it on theirselves. Surely the root problem is lack of education or/and respect.
I've had a few encounters with them and I can only say that I truly detest them since. They're constantly out to get you for petty things. Such as being parked in a carpark with a few of my mates parked side by side, revving my car out from the traffic lights (Not going over the speed limit) and also giving me a section 59 on my licence and registration for "harsh acceleration" up a slip road onto the motorway - Something that I was told that I couldn't contest.
The intimidation and what could be considered harassment towards young drivers is rife and truly isn't understood by older aged adults who seem to be given a lot more leeway in terms of driving laws and also the level of respect that they are spoken to/treated with is on a completely different level.
Edited by GEllisM4 on Saturday 18th January 20:27
It’s a good topic.
I currently work in a small rural town, since I and another officer came along and started really biting into road traffic stuff the numbers of uninsured/unlicensed drivers and blatant con and use offences have dropped rapidly.
A lot of the drivers whom we’ve targeted have simply given up after we have started seizing cars off them weekly! Now we only tend to catch visitors.
Sadly that’s a bit of a microcosm, and it’s a luxury to have a small defined area where you can really keep an eye on things, with a lower volume of calls (which the majority of local response cops use as an excuse to do sod all, and I use as an excuse to be out hunting all the time)
I do overtime shifts elsewhere and it’s like the Wild West. Genuinely, when I’ve done overtime shifts in a more populous area I have always ended up in a chase. There’s so much out there.
I was involved in a proactive operation a few weeks ago when we were targeting dealers/serious crime and we could probably have ended up with about 5 positive drug wipes.
Things have slipped a lot.
I currently work in a small rural town, since I and another officer came along and started really biting into road traffic stuff the numbers of uninsured/unlicensed drivers and blatant con and use offences have dropped rapidly.
A lot of the drivers whom we’ve targeted have simply given up after we have started seizing cars off them weekly! Now we only tend to catch visitors.
Sadly that’s a bit of a microcosm, and it’s a luxury to have a small defined area where you can really keep an eye on things, with a lower volume of calls (which the majority of local response cops use as an excuse to do sod all, and I use as an excuse to be out hunting all the time)
I do overtime shifts elsewhere and it’s like the Wild West. Genuinely, when I’ve done overtime shifts in a more populous area I have always ended up in a chase. There’s so much out there.
I was involved in a proactive operation a few weeks ago when we were targeting dealers/serious crime and we could probably have ended up with about 5 positive drug wipes.
Things have slipped a lot.
GEllisM4 said:
They're not respected by young people like myself due to the fact that they bring it on theirselves.
I've had a few encounters with them and I can only say that I truly detest them since. They're constantly out to get you for petty things. Such as being parked in a carpark with a few of my mates parked side by side, revving my car out from the traffic lights (Not going over the speed limit) and also giving me a section 59 on my licence and registration for "harsh acceleration" up a slip road onto the motorway - Something that I was told that I couldn't contest.
The intimidation and what could be considered harassment towards young drivers is rife and truly isn't understood by older aged adults who seem to be given a lot more leeway in terms of driving laws and also the level of respect that they are spoken to/treated with is on a completely different level.
Keep sticking it to the man. I've had a few encounters with them and I can only say that I truly detest them since. They're constantly out to get you for petty things. Such as being parked in a carpark with a few of my mates parked side by side, revving my car out from the traffic lights (Not going over the speed limit) and also giving me a section 59 on my licence and registration for "harsh acceleration" up a slip road onto the motorway - Something that I was told that I couldn't contest.
The intimidation and what could be considered harassment towards young drivers is rife and truly isn't understood by older aged adults who seem to be given a lot more leeway in terms of driving laws and also the level of respect that they are spoken to/treated with is on a completely different level.
Edited by GEllisM4 on Saturday 18th January 20:27
vonhosen said:
2Btoo said:
Genuine question: what is the solution? More police? Or more efficient use of the police we already have? (Or both?)
Why does the UK seem so far behind other places in Europe when it comes to this sort of thing?
Why does the UK seem so far behind other places in Europe when it comes to this sort of thing?
Red 4 said:
vonhosen said:
2Btoo said:
Genuine question: what is the solution? More police? Or more efficient use of the police we already have? (Or both?)
Why does the UK seem so far behind other places in Europe when it comes to this sort of thing?
Why does the UK seem so far behind other places in Europe when it comes to this sort of thing?
Really interesting picture Vonhosen, thanks. So the EU has, on average, 50% more police per head of population than England and Wales. How did this situation arise? And what is the solution - more police?
2Btoo said:
And yet the sort of things that are spoken about in this thread are worse in London than in the rest of the UK.
Really interesting picture Vonhosen, thanks. So the EU has, on average, 50% more police per head of population than England and Wales. How did this situation arise? And what is the solution - more police?
The figures don't tell the whole story.Really interesting picture Vonhosen, thanks. So the EU has, on average, 50% more police per head of population than England and Wales. How did this situation arise? And what is the solution - more police?
With the swingeing cuts to police funding - which is still going on in some areas - the forces have been obliged to reduce the number of support staff, this under the orders of a home secretary - forget her name, used to be quite famous I believe. So many of these officers are doing secretarial work. Further, funding is often higher in the EU.
The solution does not have to be significantly more officers. What the service needs is change. There has been nothing revolutionary since 1985 (The Police and Criminal Law Act, 1984). For instance, at the moment, a lot of police time is wasted on roles which should be performed by other services. This is so obvious that it defies reason that the police are still performing roles outside its remit. It's unlikely as if the police don't do it then other services will require more funding.
Another route might be to do away with political interference. PCCs and jobs for the boys doesn't help the service. It's unlikely whilst there's votes in Hard on crime, hard on the causes of crime rubbish.
I agree with Derek; the answer has to be a change of role. Take away things such as lost/found property, reinvest in Mental Health services which shift massive demand onto the Police.
More in terms of numbers will help, but this “extra 20,000” is going to be nigh on impossible to implement within three or four years. My force doesn’t have the training capacity, the tutors, the infrastructure any more for that many people.
The bureaucracy is crippling. It now takes me four hours to write up something i could’ve done in an hour and a half a few years ago. By the time you’ve uploaded, clipped and exhibited a body worn video clip, that’s an extra 20 minutes. Crime recording can add an hour. All for what? Scrutiny? It doesn’t seem worth it for the sheer amount of time it all takes. It’s hundreds of pounds per incident, just to show in several different ways that cops don’t behave like it’s the 70’s any more.
More in terms of numbers will help, but this “extra 20,000” is going to be nigh on impossible to implement within three or four years. My force doesn’t have the training capacity, the tutors, the infrastructure any more for that many people.
The bureaucracy is crippling. It now takes me four hours to write up something i could’ve done in an hour and a half a few years ago. By the time you’ve uploaded, clipped and exhibited a body worn video clip, that’s an extra 20 minutes. Crime recording can add an hour. All for what? Scrutiny? It doesn’t seem worth it for the sheer amount of time it all takes. It’s hundreds of pounds per incident, just to show in several different ways that cops don’t behave like it’s the 70’s any more.
Agreed. Crime recording is absolutely insane now, everything that might be a crime goes straight to Niche and needs ‘servicing’. Admin types review the crime and tell you what crime it is, and then that you’ve got to raise 2 other crimes because rules.
None of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.
None of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.
kers via their Operation Snap, so its not particularly difficult to keep out of their waycarreauchompeur said:
Agreed. Crime recording is absolutely insane now, everything that might be a crime goes straight to Niche and needs ‘servicing’. Admin types review the crime and tell you what crime it is, and then that you’ve got to raise 2 other crimes because rules.
None of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.
Agreed but rules are rules - give any leeway or discretion and the system falls down -the counting rules are what they are - NICHE and similar new systems are the problem - not fit for purpose. We had a previous system still working well - with modifications from 1989 - crime report on in under five minutes - takes over 40 minutes nowNone of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.
Edited by Bigends on Sunday 19th January 16:39
sibriers said:
Just as bad down here in Sussex..
Some "highlights":
No front numberplate
Illegal LED halogen replacement bulbs
Failed headlights, brake and tail bulbs
Driving at night with only DRLs - Clue's in the name people...
Phone and sat nav mounted centrally on the windscreen
Windows 90% steamed up
Parking facing oncoming traffic with stupid adaptive HID suncore bstards blinding everyone
These are all super easy to spot but presumably no-one gets pulled and as a result people just don't bother and don't care how it might impact other road users..
Boils my pish
As Sussex police actually advise people to ignore the highway code to cover for their incompetent drivers what else would you expect?Some "highlights":
No front numberplate
Illegal LED halogen replacement bulbs
Failed headlights, brake and tail bulbs
Driving at night with only DRLs - Clue's in the name people...
Phone and sat nav mounted centrally on the windscreen
Windows 90% steamed up
Parking facing oncoming traffic with stupid adaptive HID suncore bstards blinding everyone
These are all super easy to spot but presumably no-one gets pulled and as a result people just don't bother and don't care how it might impact other road users..
Boils my pish
Bigends said:
carreauchompeur said:
Agreed. Crime recording is absolutely insane now, everything that might be a crime goes straight to Niche and needs ‘servicing’. Admin types review the crime and tell you what crime it is, and then that you’ve got to raise 2 other crimes because rules.
None of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.
Agreed but rules are rules - give any leeway or discretion and the system falls down -the counting rules are what they are - NICHE and similar new systems are the problem - not fit for purpose. We had a previous system still working well - with modifications from 1989 - crime report on in under five minutes - takes over 40 minutes nowNone of this frenetic activity has any benefit or impact on crime. It’s just stats.
Edited by Bigends on Sunday 19th January 16:39
Statistics are seen as the be all and end all. It should not be police officers who service this apparent need. A warrant is an expensive luxury.
My feeling is that statistics should be snap-shot. Works for sciency stuff, so why not for the police?
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