E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?

[RizzoTheRat]

Dog Star said:

boyse7en said:

My missus has got an ebike and definitely has to put effort into riding up the hills. The bike just doesnt "fly along" at 15.5mph unless you push the pedals quite hard. Turn them at 2rpm and the motor will not do anything at all.

Exactly. I’ve had several eMTBs, all completely road legal and I do all manner of trails and bike parks on them every single day. My “absolute rubbish” comment to Lord Marylebone was as far as I could even be bothered commenting on total uninformed garbage. Sure with one on full boost in first gear you might hardly have to press the pedals but you won’t be travelling very fast and neither will you get very far. To be fair the same applies to a normal cycle in a very low gear. I could go on and on but I cannot be arsed. A road legal ebike is pedal assist. They don’t pedal for you nor remove all effort. Anything with a throttle (unless it’s some ancient edge case - I’ve never seen one) or that doesn’t need pedalling isn’t an ebike; it’s a motorbike and out of the scope of this debate in the same way that a petrol engined motorbike would be.

I’m all for electric scooters - brilliant things, but they’re not ebikes or anything like them.

Presumably you've only ever had torque sensing mid motored ones then? My wife currently has a unmodified completely legal (here in NL, I'm assuming UK rules are the same) ebike with a front hub motor and rotation sensing rather than torque sensing . On full power mode it will happily accelerate to 25kph on the flat with you casually rotating the pedals in first gear slowly enough that you're not putting any power in at all.

[NGee]

RizzoTheRat said:

Dog Star said:

boyse7en said:

My missus has got an ebike and definitely has to put effort into riding up the hills. The bike just doesnt "fly along" at 15.5mph unless you push the pedals quite hard. Turn them at 2rpm and the motor will not do anything at all.

Exactly. I’ve had several eMTBs, all completely road legal and I do all manner of trails and bike parks on them every single day. My “absolute rubbish” comment to Lord Marylebone was as far as I could even be bothered commenting on total uninformed garbage. Sure with one on full boost in first gear you might hardly have to press the pedals but you won’t be travelling very fast and neither will you get very far. To be fair the same applies to a normal cycle in a very low gear. I could go on and on but I cannot be arsed. A road legal ebike is pedal assist. They don’t pedal for you nor remove all effort. Anything with a throttle (unless it’s some ancient edge case - I’ve never seen one) or that doesn’t need pedalling isn’t an ebike; it’s a motorbike and out of the scope of this debate in the same way that a petrol engined motorbike would be.

I’m all for electric scooters - brilliant things, but they’re not ebikes or anything like them.

Presumably you've only ever had torque sensing mid motored ones then? My wife currently has a unmodified completely legal (here in NL, I'm assuming UK rules are the same) ebike with a front hub motor and rotation sensing rather than torque sensing . On full power mode it will happily accelerate to 25kph on the flat with you casually rotating the pedals in first gear slowly enough that you're not putting any power in at all.

Exactly this, my bike is completely UK legal with rear hub motor and behaves exactly as you describe.

Unfortunately some people are unable to accept that there may be different types of legal e-bike and will spout their uninformed garbage and just shout 'absolute rubbish' at anyone who has different FACTS to their opinion.

[jakesmith]

Donbot said:

jakesmith said:

Just hope the motors aren't capped at 250W that would suck for hills.

That should be ok for hills unless you are a big fat fatty shouldn't it? Plus you can also kick it to help it out.

No it's not enough, I weigh 11 stone and 350W conks out going up some local hills that aren't particularly steep, kicking isn't really anything like as viable as pedaling on an e-bike that has an efficient drivetrain.

[Toltec]

NGee said:

RizzoTheRat said:

Dog Star said:

boyse7en said:

My missus has got an ebike and definitely has to put effort into riding up the hills. The bike just doesnt "fly along" at 15.5mph unless you push the pedals quite hard. Turn them at 2rpm and the motor will not do anything at all.

Exactly. I’ve had several eMTBs, all completely road legal and I do all manner of trails and bike parks on them every single day. My “absolute rubbish” comment to Lord Marylebone was as far as I could even be bothered commenting on total uninformed garbage. Sure with one on full boost in first gear you might hardly have to press the pedals but you won’t be travelling very fast and neither will you get very far. To be fair the same applies to a normal cycle in a very low gear. I could go on and on but I cannot be arsed. A road legal ebike is pedal assist. They don’t pedal for you nor remove all effort. Anything with a throttle (unless it’s some ancient edge case - I’ve never seen one) or that doesn’t need pedalling isn’t an ebike; it’s a motorbike and out of the scope of this debate in the same way that a petrol engined motorbike would be.

I’m all for electric scooters - brilliant things, but they’re not ebikes or anything like them.

Presumably you've only ever had torque sensing mid motored ones then? My wife currently has a unmodified completely legal (here in NL, I'm assuming UK rules are the same) ebike with a front hub motor and rotation sensing rather than torque sensing . On full power mode it will happily accelerate to 25kph on the flat with you casually rotating the pedals in first gear slowly enough that you're not putting any power in at all.

Exactly this, my bike is completely UK legal with rear hub motor and behaves exactly as you describe.

Unfortunately some people are unable to accept that there may be different types of legal e-bike and will spout their uninformed garbage and just shout 'absolute rubbish' at anyone who has different FACTS to their opinion.

Good point, must admit I always thought they had to be pedal assisted, that just acts a kind of throttle that simply requires constant input then. I had thought the rotation would need to match up with wheel speed, but of course the system would need to know the gearing then. I wonder if that means the peak output is much lower than a middrive then? Some middrives will put out around 500W, they just have to have a designed average of 250W.

[RizzoTheRat]

Presumably hub motors are a lot worse on hills as they're direct drive while mid motors are using the bike's gearing? And an e-scooter would likely have the same issue as i can't see them getting gears.

[OutInTheShed]

jakesmith said:

No it's not enough, I weigh 11 stone and 350W conks out going up some local hills that aren't particularly steep, kicking isn't really anything like as viable as pedaling on an e-bike that has an efficient drivetrain.

A 350W motor only puts out 350W if it's loaded and driven in a suitable way.

Power in is volts x amps. If the supply doesn't give the motor the power it needs, you won't get the power out.

Power is also force x speed or torque x revs (in the right units).

If the gearing and motor characteristics and power system don't work together, you'll only get 350W or whatever at one point
If you nearly stall a motor a low speed, the torque may be fairly high but the revs are to low and the power is low if the system won't deliver lots of current.

Some motors can be driven by complicated electronics to give a better spread of torque, intelligently limited to a max power. Others are just a motor a battery and a crude regulator. I think 350W is a respectable power for a fit club cyclist to sustain for 15 minutes, so it should be getting you up hill if it's real.
The cyclist of course will need to be in the right gear. To optimise his torque and revs.

[Donbot]

Electric motors output decent power at very low rpm, so I wouldn't have thought it would matter that much.

Same reason BEVs don't tend to have gears.

[Don Veloci]

Dunno if it's fair to try a thread hijack, however I can kinda see some form of e-Thingy in my future and the discussions here are interesting but confusing regarding the different technologies or types of drive in e-bikes.

Is any one kind recommended over the other or am I best just visiting a shop and trying things out?

I'm not interested in a achieving exercise, I'll keep a mountain bike for that. Primarily looking at an efficient/minimal effort way of dealing with the ups and downs of Edinburgh around 20 miles a day that is allowed on cycle routes as well as roads.

Legalising scooters is also an option.

[Donbot]

The mid-drive ones supposedly have better feel and pull a bit better due to the gearing.

If I was going to get one just as a commuter I'd be tempted by hub drive due to less wear on the drivetrain.

[2ZZ Top]

Don Veloci said:

Dunno if it's fair to try a thread hijack, however I can kinda see some form of e-Thingy in my future and the discussions here are interesting but confusing regarding the different technologies or types of drive in e-bikes.

Is any one kind recommended over the other or am I best just visiting a shop and trying things out?

I'm not interested in a achieving exercise, I'll keep a mountain bike for that. Primarily looking at an efficient/minimal effort way of dealing with the ups and downs of Edinburgh around 20 miles a day that is allowed on cycle routes as well as roads.

Legalising scooters is also an option.

Pop in to the Electric Cycle Company in Pilton, they'll let you try different bikes.

[OutInTheShed]

Don Veloci said:

Dunno if it's fair to try a thread hijack, however I can kinda see some form of e-Thingy in my future and the discussions here are interesting but confusing regarding the different technologies or types of drive in e-bikes.

Is any one kind recommended over the other or am I best just visiting a shop and trying things out?

I'm not interested in a achieving exercise, I'll keep a mountain bike for that. Primarily looking at an efficient/minimal effort way of dealing with the ups and downs of Edinburgh around 20 miles a day that is allowed on cycle routes as well as roads.

Legalising scooters is also an option.

Edinburgh has some serious ups and downs, so crank drive with good gears may be better, at the expense of drive train wear.
But I get the impression some hub drives are much better than others?

[RizzoTheRat]

Don Veloci said:

Dunno if it's fair to try a thread hijack, however I can kinda see some form of e-Thingy in my future and the discussions here are interesting but confusing regarding the different technologies or types of drive in e-bikes.

Is any one kind recommended over the other or am I best just visiting a shop and trying things out?

I'm not interested in a achieving exercise, I'll keep a mountain bike for that. Primarily looking at an efficient/minimal effort way of dealing with the ups and downs of Edinburgh around 20 miles a day that is allowed on cycle routes as well as roads.

Legalising scooters is also an option.

If you want fully legal an e-bike is the only real option at the moment unless you go for an electric moped like a NIU, for which you'd need a CBT and motorbike helmet.

Presumably Edinburgh is the kind of place with enough tourists there'll be some bike hire places around, which is a good way of getting a feel for them over longer distances than you would with a test ride from a shop. Mid motor feels more natural to me, hub motor with rotation sensor doesn't really feel like you have as good control of your speed.

[Don Veloci]

RizzoTheRat said:

If you want fully legal an e-bike is the only real option at the moment unless you go for an electric moped like a NIU, for which you'd need a CBT and motorbike helmet.

Presumably Edinburgh is the kind of place with enough tourists there'll be some bike hire places around, which is a good way of getting a feel for them over longer distances than you would with a test ride from a shop. Mid motor feels more natural to me, hub motor with rotation sensor doesn't really feel like you have as good control of your speed.

I'm actually fully motorcycle licensed so that's another option going forward, bit more investment albeit, with no access to cycle paths.

Cheers for the replies. Certain plenty to think about and a couple of options for trying things out.

[RizzoTheRat]

Don Veloci said:

I'm actually fully motorcycle licensed so that's another option going forward, bit more investment albeit, with no access to cycle paths.

Cheers for the replies. Certain plenty to think about and a couple of options for trying things out.

You might be surprised on the investment bit, electric mopeds seem to be similar prices to e-bikes. You can get reasonable ones for about 2.5k, which is mid range e-bike prices, and will do 30+mph,so ideal for town roads, but as you say in the UK you can't use them on cycle paths.

[OutInTheShed]

Donbot said:

Electric motors output decent power at very low rpm, so I wouldn't have thought it would matter that much.

Same reason BEVs don't tend to have gears.

You need to see the difference between power and torque.
And not generalise all electric motors as being the same.

[bigothunter]

OutInTheShed said:

I think 350W is a respectable power for a fit club cyclist to sustain for 15 minutes, so it should be getting you up hill if it's real.
The cyclist of course will need to be in the right gear. To optimise his torque and revs.

Have you tried even reaching 350W on an exercise bike in the gym? That's almost 1/2 horsepower.

If you do manage 350W for 15 minutes, can you post the video on youtube please?

[andburg]

Don’t know about 350w but a friend who’s mega into cycling and is a brand ambassador for a cycling co regularly posts his Strava.

On average it says 220w for his rides and peaks about 330 for a minute or 2 but no prolonged periods over 250 even on his short rides.

If a strong, regular rider on £3000+ of bike can’t make over 250w for prolonged periods I see no reason for Alan waist bike to have more power

[OutInTheShed]

https://www.roadbikerider.com/average-wattage-cycl...

Myself, I wheeze up hills slowly.

[Don Veloci]

RizzoTheRat said:

You might be surprised on the investment bit, electric mopeds seem to be similar prices to e-bikes. You can get reasonable ones for about 2.5k, which is mid range e-bike prices, and will do 30+mph,so ideal for town roads, but as you say in the UK you can't use them on cycle paths.

My mind has already leaped from moped to full on electric motorcycle. A future return to motorcycling could well be electric if the big names made them more mainstream. Not something I've ever looked into and a big deviation for an e-scooter thread.

[z4RRSchris]

andburg said:

Don’t know about 350w but a friend who’s mega into cycling and is a brand ambassador for a cycling co regularly posts his Strava.

On average it says 220w for his rides and peaks about 330 for a minute or 2 but no prolonged periods over 250 even on his short rides.

If a strong, regular rider on £3000+ of bike can’t make over 250w for prolonged periods I see no reason for Alan waist bike to have more power

i was overtaken up a mountain by two old people on ebikes, i was doing 300w up it, they flew past so i suspect they were doing 160w and the e bike was doubling it