E Scooters soon to be allowed on UK roads?

[anonymous-user]

flashbang said:

So why are these illegal but electric bikes not? There's not much difference between stood up and sat down.

Because here in the UK we are ‘lucky’ enough to be stuck using laws that are 183 years old.

Essentially a electric bicycle can be pedalled and therefore remains classed as human powered, and therefore legal. It is merely ‘assisted’ by an electric motor.

An electric scooter is powered solely by its own motor and is ‘driven’ with a throttle, all of which makes it ‘a vehicle’ under 183 year old UK law

[eldar]

The joys of the motor cycle with decorative pedals.

[TTmonkey]

Lord Marylebone said:

ddom said:

Darwinism and the law come from opposing positions. Unlicensed/uninsured e-scooter riders travelling at 20-30 mph can't become any kind of solution. Might as well open the floodgates and allow unrestricted e-bikes as well.

Currently, rental e-scooters are restricted to 15.5mph and it is expected that privately owned e-scooters will also be restricted to 15.5mph, the same as e-bikes are.

Only scooters restricted to 15.5mph will be allowed to be sold in the UK for on-road use, which is the same as e-bikes.

Obviously you are always going to get the odd person that has their e-bike or e-scooter modified or derestricted to increase the top speed, just the same as you get car drivers who drive above the speed limit.

It should be noted though, that the vast majority of e-scooters and e-bikes on sale cannot manage to exceed around 18-20mph even fully derestricted as their motors, batteries and controllers are not capable of delivering more power.

As for insurance, who knows? Maybe the government will see absolutely no need for e-bikes and e-scooters to be insured, or perhaps they will require an annual insurance to be purchased.

An example: Insurance in Germany is compulsory for e-scooters and is £25 for 12 months. You then get a sticker that you apply to your scooter which proves your insurance status.

Regularly do 25-30 mph on my ebike, totally legally. You know why? There is no speed restriction on any ebike.

[anonymous-user]

Lord Marylebone said:

flashbang said:

So why are these illegal but electric bikes not? There's not much difference between stood up and sat down.

Because here in the UK we are ‘lucky’ enough to be stuck using laws that are 183 years old.

Essentially a electric bicycle can be pedalled and therefore remains classed as human powered, and therefore legal. It is merely ‘assisted’ by an electric motor.

An electric scooter is powered solely by its own motor and is ‘driven’ with a throttle, all of which makes it ‘a vehicle’ under 183 year old UK law

So if manufacturers produced them with a chain pedal drive as well, they would be completely fine? How odd.

[Toltec]

flashbang said:

Lord Marylebone said:

flashbang said:

So why are these illegal but electric bikes not? There's not much difference between stood up and sat down.

Because here in the UK we are ‘lucky’ enough to be stuck using laws that are 183 years old.

Essentially a electric bicycle can be pedalled and therefore remains classed as human powered, and therefore legal. It is merely ‘assisted’ by an electric motor.

An electric scooter is powered solely by its own motor and is ‘driven’ with a throttle, all of which makes it ‘a vehicle’ under 183 year old UK law

So if manufacturers produced them with a chain pedal drive as well, they would be completely fine? How odd.

Providing the motor only assists pedalling and there is no throttle, yes.

It is just one of those distinctions like a car being considered automatic for licencing, even if you have to select gears yourself, providing the clutch is automatic and there is no clutch pedal.

[TTmonkey]

Toltec said:

flashbang said:

Lord Marylebone said:

flashbang said:

So why are these illegal but electric bikes not? There's not much difference between stood up and sat down.

Because here in the UK we are ‘lucky’ enough to be stuck using laws that are 183 years old.

Essentially a electric bicycle can be pedalled and therefore remains classed as human powered, and therefore legal. It is merely ‘assisted’ by an electric motor.

An electric scooter is powered solely by its own motor and is ‘driven’ with a throttle, all of which makes it ‘a vehicle’ under 183 year old UK law

So if manufacturers produced them with a chain pedal drive as well, they would be completely fine? How odd.

Providing the motor only assists pedalling and there is no throttle, yes.

It is just one of those distinctions like a car being considered automatic for licencing, even if you have to select gears yourself, providing the clutch is automatic and there is no clutch pedal.

But then they wouldn’t be scooters, so the law wouldn’t apply. You’d need a new law. For this new thing that’s nit a scooter.

[Toltec]

TTmonkey said:

Toltec said:

flashbang said:

Lord Marylebone said:

flashbang said:

So why are these illegal but electric bikes not? There's not much difference between stood up and sat down.

Because here in the UK we are ‘lucky’ enough to be stuck using laws that are 183 years old.

Essentially a electric bicycle can be pedalled and therefore remains classed as human powered, and therefore legal. It is merely ‘assisted’ by an electric motor.

An electric scooter is powered solely by its own motor and is ‘driven’ with a throttle, all of which makes it ‘a vehicle’ under 183 year old UK law

So if manufacturers produced them with a chain pedal drive as well, they would be completely fine? How odd.

Providing the motor only assists pedalling and there is no throttle, yes.

It is just one of those distinctions like a car being considered automatic for licencing, even if you have to select gears yourself, providing the clutch is automatic and there is no clutch pedal.

But then they wouldn’t be scooters, so the law wouldn’t apply. You’d need a new law. For this new thing that’s nit a scooter.

I thought that is what I said

If it has a throttle it is a motor vehicle is the distinction. If the scooter was designed such that a sensor detected you pushing it and the motor assisted that, then you might ba able to argue that the ebike legislation would apply.

[anonymous-user]

TTmonkey said:

Regularly do 25-30 mph on my ebike, totally legally. You know why? There is no speed restriction on any ebike.

Your comment is misleading.

Yes, you can pedal an ebike up to any speed perfectly legally. It is after all, just classed as a bicycle.

But you won’t get any electric assistance at 25-30mph as it cuts out completely at 15.5 mph.

You should have just said “I pedal my bicycle up to 25-30mph totally legally” and everyone would have replied “so what”.

Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 10th October 17:39

[Harry H]

We need to legalise the things ASAP. Just have a new law that states "ride like a dick and you can be fined".

For the thick amongst us just have a big list of examples of what constitutes "riding like a dick". Doesn't have to be exhaustive and the fines don't have to be huge. Big enough to smart a bit but not worth the bother of fighting. The misbehavers are generally the kids anyway. £50 is gonna hurt. Would also go someway to paying for more of those community police guys (plastic) or whatever they're called these days.

£25 insurance should cover the injury aspect and the more fines they issue the less injuries will take place. You could even have a separate licence for Personal Mobility Devices, renewable every year which includes insurance. X amount of points and you're banned for a couple of years. Kids could take a test at school at 14. A bit like the Cycling Proficiency test I did many years ago. Not sure if they still do that.

It's the future. The quicker we embrace it the better.

[Toltec]

Harry H said:

We need to legalise the things ASAP. Just have a new law that states "ride like a dick and you can be fined".

For the thick amongst us just have a big list of examples of what constitutes "riding like a dick". Doesn't have to be exhaustive and the fines don't have to be huge. Big enough to smart a bit but not worth the bother of fighting. The misbehavers are generally the kids anyway. £50 is gonna hurt. Would also go someway to paying for more of those community police guys (plastic) or whatever they're called these days.

£25 insurance should cover the injury aspect and the more fines they issue the less injuries will take place. You could even have a separate licence for Personal Mobility Devices, renewable every year which includes insurance. X amount of points and you're banned for a couple of years. Kids could take a test at school at 14. A bit like the Cycling Proficiency test I did many years ago. Not sure if they still do that.

It's the future. The quicker we embrace it the better.

Too much sense there...

As far as insurance goes it could just be covered on a house policy, I have my cycles covered for a few quid extra so shouldn't be difficult to have cover for houshold e-scooters.

[martinbiz]

Toltec said:

If it has a throttle it is a motor vehicle is the distinction. If the scooter was designed such that a sensor detected you pushing it and the motor assisted that, then you might ba able to argue that the ebike legislation would apply.

I thought that was excatly what most of them do, you have to push off and then the motor detects it and cuts in. All the ones i've looked at seem to operate like this and the one I have tried needs to hit 5kmh before powering up

[anonymous-user]

martinbiz said:

Toltec said:

If it has a throttle it is a motor vehicle is the distinction. If the scooter was designed such that a sensor detected you pushing it and the motor assisted that, then you might ba able to argue that the ebike legislation would apply.

I thought that was excatly what most of them do, you have to push off and then the motor detects it and cuts in. All the ones i've looked at seem to operate like this and the one I have tried needs to hit 5kmh before powering up

All true.

But an e-scooter fails to meet requirements for the 'motor assisted' category because you don't have to continually push. Once moving, the motor will drive you along for as long as the battery lasts with no human effort.

E-bicycles require peddling and effort 100% of the time for the motor to activate, so they can clearly be classed as 'assisted'. As soon as you stop pedalling, the motor stops.

The laws in this country really are bonkers withe regards to stuff like this.

[anonymous-user]

Harry H said:

We need to legalise the things ASAP. Just have a new law that states "ride like a dick and you can be fined".

For the thick amongst us just have a big list of examples of what constitutes "riding like a dick". Doesn't have to be exhaustive and the fines don't have to be huge. Big enough to smart a bit but not worth the bother of fighting. The misbehavers are generally the kids anyway. £50 is gonna hurt. Would also go someway to paying for more of those community police guys (plastic) or whatever they're called these days.

£25 insurance should cover the injury aspect and the more fines they issue the less injuries will take place. You could even have a separate licence for Personal Mobility Devices, renewable every year which includes insurance. X amount of points and you're banned for a couple of years. Kids could take a test at school at 14. A bit like the Cycling Proficiency test I did many years ago. Not sure if they still do that.

It's the future. The quicker we embrace it the better.

I agree. None of this needs to be difficult, but as usual our government will probably make a meal out of it.

If it was me... I would say:

Over 16's only.

'Type approved' scooters only, with a top speed of 15.5mph (same as e-bikes)

£25 per year insurance which is proved by an anti-tamper sticker applied to the scooter (same as Germany)

No helmets required by law but advised.

Apply same laws as bicycles:
£50 fine for misdemeanours (Riding on pavements, jumping red lights, having more than one person on your scooter/bicycle)
£1000 fine for careless riding
£2500 fine for dangerous riding.


Job done.

[silverthorn2151]

As a scooter user from time to time that seems perfectly reasonable, sensible and enforceable.

[Tommo87]

Im not sure that £25 would cover insurance premiums for theft of something costing a lot more to buy.

Also, what about third party liability insurance. In case they lose control and collide with a Pedestrian, parked vehicle or shop window etc.


Should the insurance premium not fit the risk?

[JQ]

Tommo87 said:

Im not sure that £25 would cover insurance premiums for theft of something costing a lot more to buy.

Also, what about third party liability insurance. In case they lose control and collide with a Pedestrian, parked vehicle or shop window etc.


Should the insurance premium not fit the risk?

He is talking about third party cover, not theft cover.

What risk?

And I suspect the vast majority of the £25 quoted is administration costs. It's why you struggle to get individual 3rd party liability cover for cycling. The actual cost of the premium is tiny, because despite what PH may lead you to believe, cyclists don't actually cause that much damage to other things or people. Hence 3rd party cycle insurance is generally only offered in block policies.

[anonymous-user]

JQ said:

Tommo87 said:

Im not sure that £25 would cover insurance premiums for theft of something costing a lot more to buy.

Also, what about third party liability insurance. In case they lose control and collide with a Pedestrian, parked vehicle or shop window etc.


Should the insurance premium not fit the risk?

He is talking about third party cover, not theft cover.

What risk?

And I suspect the vast majority of the £25 quoted is administration costs. It's why you struggle to get individual 3rd party liability cover for cycling. The actual cost of the premium is tiny, because despite what PH may lead you to believe, cyclists don't actually cause that much damage to other things or people. Hence 3rd party cycle insurance is generally only offered in block policies.

JQ is correct.

When I said insurance, I was referring to some form of mandatory 3rd party insurance.

I mention the £25 figure as that’s what mandatory 3rd party insurance for e-scooters costs in Germany (recently introduced rules).

My guess is that insurance won’t be a legal requirement over here, because it would be nearly impossible to justify making scooter riders hold insurance but not cyclists. I would say the risks posed by bicycles or scooters are comparable, and reasonably minimal.

[Kent Border Kenny]

Zed 44 said:

I must be the only remaining petrolhead on here. If these e-scooterists want to use the road, let them pay tax, display a large number plate and have insurance. They and cyclists are nothing short of a public nuisance. God help us.

They probably do pay tax. I ride one of these, and pay about £2,000 per year in VED.

[Fatball]

Not sure I’m interested in them if they restrict the speed

[anonymous-user]

Fatball said:

Not sure I’m interested in them if they restrict the speed

You honestly think they would allow people to ride electric scooters on public roads at speeds like 30mph, 40mph etc?

I'm as interested in seeing privately owned e-scooters legalised as anyone, but allowing them to exceed a fairly limited speed is just bonkers and unrealistic.

I've had a go on one, and from personal experience, 16mph is more than fast enough for use in urban environments and on public roads for commuting.

If you want to go faster on two wheels and still be powered by batteries, then 'Speed Pedelec Bicycles' and electric motorcycles are freely available to you.