Emergency legislation - information and commentary
Discussion
Gribs said:
djohnson said:
The laws were very clear, written in plain English and fairly easy to interpret.
They weren't. As an example it was illegal to leave your home at one point without a reasonable excuse. A non exhaustive list of reasonable excuses was given. From the arguments on here people disagreed about what was reasonable, so obviously police officers would have differing opinions too.Elysium said:
The Govt propaganda told us that everyone was at risk from COVID regardless of age.
Unfortunately this has meant that most people do not understand that this risk varies dramatically.
An unvaccinated 80 year old is 2,000 times more likely to die after becoming infected with COVID than an unvaccinated 20 year old.
The burdon of death has been dramatically biased toward the elderly. Who we have, despite endless lockdown, largely failed to protect.
Damn those Government types, eh! Failing to protect 80+ year olds from death...Unfortunately this has meant that most people do not understand that this risk varies dramatically.
An unvaccinated 80 year old is 2,000 times more likely to die after becoming infected with COVID than an unvaccinated 20 year old.
The burdon of death has been dramatically biased toward the elderly. Who we have, despite endless lockdown, largely failed to protect.
MP's on the Joint Committee on Human Rights want all Covid fixed penalty notices reviewed
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56890540
Ms Harman said police had a difficult job enforcing the rules during the pandemic, but warned a "lack of legal clarity" meant there could be a large number of wrongly issued fines.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56890540
Ms Harman said police had a difficult job enforcing the rules during the pandemic, but warned a "lack of legal clarity" meant there could be a large number of wrongly issued fines.
Oceanrower said:
Typical sodding BBC. Even after all this time they still can’t get it right!
“ Current coronavirus restrictions in England mean only six people, from two different households, can gather outside.”
Should be 6 people OR two households.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-56799333
Have been having this problem when trying to book. We want a table for 7 when the restaurants open, not one venue will allow it, all stating it’s a maximum of 6 only.“ Current coronavirus restrictions in England mean only six people, from two different households, can gather outside.”
Should be 6 people OR two households.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-56799333
No persuasion from me that we are two households will hold any sway.
What remarkable timing.
The legal challenge to hospitality being unable to open before May 17th was delayed for no real reason, and then it was ruled pointless to go through with it because it would take it past that date anyway.
And it just so happened that...:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/03/high-c...
One wonders exactly how much more of their demagoguery is based on nothing at all.
Strange how the BBC seem to have made exactly nothing out of this news. It's almost like they are a state propaganda puppet/mouthpiece.
Even the Telegraph buries the news that Covid is basically a non-event in the hospitality sector in the middle of an article on legal stuff that won't attract many readers, rather than shouting it from the front page to increase consumer confidence while highlighting the obvious manipulation of the timing by Govt.
It's just... bizarre that there is literally zero 'MSM' journalism on what the Govt are doing.
EDIT:
Nice.
The legal challenge to hospitality being unable to open before May 17th was delayed for no real reason, and then it was ruled pointless to go through with it because it would take it past that date anyway.
And it just so happened that...:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/03/high-c...
Telegraph said:
The judgment came just before a report by the Government's Sage scientific advisory committee emerged, indicating that ministers had been advised that "eating out in any food outlet or restaurant was not associated with increased odds" of catching Covid.
In the report, scientists admitted the risk of "transmission in hospitality, retail and leisure are relatively low", with only 226 outbreaks in hospitality venues since the pandemic began.
It is unclear when the Sage report was written or submitted to ministers, but it was not disclosed by the defence during the legal proceedings.
So Govt knew they had no evidence for their restrictions and instead pushed any legal challenge past the point it could make a difference.In the report, scientists admitted the risk of "transmission in hospitality, retail and leisure are relatively low", with only 226 outbreaks in hospitality venues since the pandemic began.
It is unclear when the Sage report was written or submitted to ministers, but it was not disclosed by the defence during the legal proceedings.
One wonders exactly how much more of their demagoguery is based on nothing at all.
Strange how the BBC seem to have made exactly nothing out of this news. It's almost like they are a state propaganda puppet/mouthpiece.
Even the Telegraph buries the news that Covid is basically a non-event in the hospitality sector in the middle of an article on legal stuff that won't attract many readers, rather than shouting it from the front page to increase consumer confidence while highlighting the obvious manipulation of the timing by Govt.
It's just... bizarre that there is literally zero 'MSM' journalism on what the Govt are doing.
EDIT:
Telegraph said:
Mr Osmond said: "This case is not 'academic' for an industry that is losing £200 million every day it remains closed, for the over three million people who work in our industry, or for the tens of thousands of businesses, suppliers, landlords and contractors forced into bankruptcy by government measures.
So Govt are happy to keep Hospitality shut for another two weeks at a cost of £2.8billion and risk more jobs going, all because it saves face?Nice.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Wednesday 5th May 01:42
I think it is a little more than saving face.
There will be a public enquiry in due course. The Govt is expecting the primary challenge to be that they did not act quickly and decisively enough. That they were reckless about the virus risk, putting the economy first.
I suspect the relentless trudge of the roadmap is about reversing that perception.
The secondary issue is that there is a large body of people who do not believe we should open at all. SAGE and Govt want to make sure they have ample data to disprove any accusations of haste, which the 5 week delays between steps will achieve.
It is worryingly delicate, but we have ended up in a place where we have zero tolerance for any increase in COVID, despite the fact that the vulnerable are now very significantly protected by the vaccines.
There will be a public enquiry in due course. The Govt is expecting the primary challenge to be that they did not act quickly and decisively enough. That they were reckless about the virus risk, putting the economy first.
I suspect the relentless trudge of the roadmap is about reversing that perception.
The secondary issue is that there is a large body of people who do not believe we should open at all. SAGE and Govt want to make sure they have ample data to disprove any accusations of haste, which the 5 week delays between steps will achieve.
It is worryingly delicate, but we have ended up in a place where we have zero tolerance for any increase in COVID, despite the fact that the vulnerable are now very significantly protected by the vaccines.
Elysium said:
There will be a public enquiry in due course. The Govt is expecting the primary challenge to be that they did not act quickly and decisively enough. That they were reckless about the virus risk, putting the economy first.
I suspect the relentless trudge of the roadmap is about reversing that perception.
100% agree.I suspect the relentless trudge of the roadmap is about reversing that perception.
[quote=Elysium
...I suspect the relentless trudge of the roadmap is about reversing that perception...
[/quote]
Road "map"? My hairy testicles, it's no map. Maps are full of alternative routes to be taken in differing circumstances. But Boris has made no "map" at all. He's issued a route card that must be rigidly followed, no matter how many recce parties bring back evidence of alternative routes that may/will get us safely to our destination more swiftly.
There doesn't seem to be any desire in our "leadership" to get back to anything resembling normal any time soon. Scaremongering government TV and radio ads trying to frighten Aunty Betty into staying 10 feet away from her nieces and nephews, Doom mongering about interpersonal contact, despite vanishingly small actual risks. If we follow government advice to the letter we'll have a generation of Uni students now who will be beyond reproductive age by the time they are allowed to meet and form partnerships with members of their opposite gender.
There's also no such thing as "new normal". Either something is "normal" or by definition it is abnormal. Hints at continued requirements to wear masks abound. But we're more likely to die in road accidents now than from/with Covid-19. Yet, despite worries about mass unemployment (two birds, one stone time, folks...), no-one is advocating for the return of the man with the red flag. Risk assessment and risk management aren't being done very well by our so-called "leaders", and we can't trust "The Science" because the dissenting voices within the scientific community aren't being heard because mainstream media outlets are happily parroting the Special Government Science like some propaganda mouthpiece.
I'm off back to the "Anyone else getting tired of it all?" thread to rant and wave my fists at the sky, because until we start openly disobeying these "restrictions", and in large numbers, we are going to get what we deserve for not pushing back hard enough against Boris and Co.
...I suspect the relentless trudge of the roadmap is about reversing that perception...
[/quote]
Road "map"? My hairy testicles, it's no map. Maps are full of alternative routes to be taken in differing circumstances. But Boris has made no "map" at all. He's issued a route card that must be rigidly followed, no matter how many recce parties bring back evidence of alternative routes that may/will get us safely to our destination more swiftly.
There doesn't seem to be any desire in our "leadership" to get back to anything resembling normal any time soon. Scaremongering government TV and radio ads trying to frighten Aunty Betty into staying 10 feet away from her nieces and nephews, Doom mongering about interpersonal contact, despite vanishingly small actual risks. If we follow government advice to the letter we'll have a generation of Uni students now who will be beyond reproductive age by the time they are allowed to meet and form partnerships with members of their opposite gender.
There's also no such thing as "new normal". Either something is "normal" or by definition it is abnormal. Hints at continued requirements to wear masks abound. But we're more likely to die in road accidents now than from/with Covid-19. Yet, despite worries about mass unemployment (two birds, one stone time, folks...), no-one is advocating for the return of the man with the red flag. Risk assessment and risk management aren't being done very well by our so-called "leaders", and we can't trust "The Science" because the dissenting voices within the scientific community aren't being heard because mainstream media outlets are happily parroting the Special Government Science like some propaganda mouthpiece.
I'm off back to the "Anyone else getting tired of it all?" thread to rant and wave my fists at the sky, because until we start openly disobeying these "restrictions", and in large numbers, we are going to get what we deserve for not pushing back hard enough against Boris and Co.
yellowjack said:
If we follow government advice to the letter we'll have a generation of Uni students now who will be beyond reproductive age by the time they are allowed to meet and form partnerships with members of their opposite gender.
Yet you say the government is scaremongering?NickCQ said:
yellowjack said:
If we follow government advice to the letter we'll have a generation of Uni students now who will be beyond reproductive age by the time they are allowed to meet and form partnerships with members of their opposite gender.
Yet you say the government is scaremongering?yellowjack said:
Yes. Because I can hold an opinion, and even form one for myself (old fashioned, I know) but I'm not in a position to force that opinion upon others, no matter how thin the air from which it was conjured. The government, on the other hand, seems perfectly capable of sieving out only the evidence which they like, and then using it to formulate laws which restrict freedom. It's also disturbing to see how little critical thinking is being done by ordinary people on the matter. There seems to be a very vocal element in society which absolutely loves being restricted, despite the untold damage it is doing to people with their entire lives ahead of them. I'm not bothered so much, I've had a life and lived it as well as I could. But my sons are struggling. Struggling to get and/or keep work. Struggling to form and/or maintain relationships. They've gone from "the world is at your feet" to "oh no! don't go out into the world, because that nasty, vindictive sniper 'Covid-19' is waiting outside the front door waiting to pick you off". But it isn't. Covid-19 is a storm in a teacup. Even the numbers coming out of India need putting in perspective. Divide them by 20 for a start, if you want to compare them with UK figures. Then factor in mass migration of already ill people to the capital city, and the cultural and socio-economic differences between us in the UK and ordinary Indians. Yet Boris and Co are clinging to the situation in India and trying to terrify us into believing it's about to happen here in the same way. So yes, lying through their teeth and creating terror through exaggeration and misinformation definitely IS scaremongering. Whereas I'm just some random musing on the internet. You can choose to "join my cult", openly mock me, or just laugh and ignore me. None of us is legally permitted to ignore the government, though. not while they keep businesses closed. It doesn't need a Ted Hastings to work out that there is currently a lot of misfeasance going on in a lot of public offices. I'm sure the truth WILL out, but by then it will be too late. Ordinary people will suffer illness and even death due to undiagnosed, late diagnosed, or wrongly diagnosed illnesses other than Covid-19, and the mental health and financial fortunes of others will be left in tatters. And for what? To save a handful of people who were close to shuffling off anyway. The cost to the many far outweighs the benefits being lavished on the vanishingly tiny group whose existence has been provably extended by these measures, and the sooner this pantomime faces it's final curtain the better.
Agreed 100%I also find the bit I've highlighted as extremely worrying.
I never realised how easy it was to brainwash 'normal' people.
NGee said:
yellowjack said:
Yes. Because I can hold an opinion, and even form one for myself (old fashioned, I know) but I'm not in a position to force that opinion upon others, no matter how thin the air from which it was conjured. The government, on the other hand, seems perfectly capable of sieving out only the evidence which they like, and then using it to formulate laws which restrict freedom. It's also disturbing to see how little critical thinking is being done by ordinary people on the matter. There seems to be a very vocal element in society which absolutely loves being restricted, despite the untold damage it is doing to people with their entire lives ahead of them. I'm not bothered so much, I've had a life and lived it as well as I could. But my sons are struggling. Struggling to get and/or keep work. Struggling to form and/or maintain relationships. They've gone from "the world is at your feet" to "oh no! don't go out into the world, because that nasty, vindictive sniper 'Covid-19' is waiting outside the front door waiting to pick you off". But it isn't. Covid-19 is a storm in a teacup. Even the numbers coming out of India need putting in perspective. Divide them by 20 for a start, if you want to compare them with UK figures. Then factor in mass migration of already ill people to the capital city, and the cultural and socio-economic differences between us in the UK and ordinary Indians. Yet Boris and Co are clinging to the situation in India and trying to terrify us into believing it's about to happen here in the same way. So yes, lying through their teeth and creating terror through exaggeration and misinformation definitely IS scaremongering. Whereas I'm just some random musing on the internet. You can choose to "join my cult", openly mock me, or just laugh and ignore me. None of us is legally permitted to ignore the government, though. not while they keep businesses closed. It doesn't need a Ted Hastings to work out that there is currently a lot of misfeasance going on in a lot of public offices. I'm sure the truth WILL out, but by then it will be too late. Ordinary people will suffer illness and even death due to undiagnosed, late diagnosed, or wrongly diagnosed illnesses other than Covid-19, and the mental health and financial fortunes of others will be left in tatters. And for what? To save a handful of people who were close to shuffling off anyway. The cost to the many far outweighs the benefits being lavished on the vanishingly tiny group whose existence has been provably extended by these measures, and the sooner this pantomime faces it's final curtain the better.
Agreed 100%I also find the bit I've highlighted as extremely worrying.
I never realised how easy it was to brainwash 'normal' people.
yellowjack said:
NickCQ said:
yellowjack said:
If we follow government advice to the letter we'll have a generation of Uni students now who will be beyond reproductive age by the time they are allowed to meet and form partnerships with members of their opposite gender.
Yet you say the government is scaremongering?COVID is a genuine risk to the elderly. Its a bit of a risk to those aged 55-70, its a tiny risk for healthy people aged 40-54 and its not much of a risk at all for anyone under 40.
The problem is that we still dont understand how it spreads and, if you imagine for a moment that lockdowns actually work, the maths gets you to a broken health service very quickly without them.
The basic facts of the matter were known from the start and any rational debate should result in ideas like focused protection as per the Great Barrington Declaration.
But the Govt panicked. They went for a lockdown without a plan and flat out lied about the length of time it would be needed. They lied again to tell young people they were at risk and that triggered a national psychosis and a whole bunch of people who are now convinced they have long COVID.
COVID is a nasty problem. It kills the vulnerable and elderly quite efficiently and spreads invisibly.
A grown up society would have done its best to protect them and 'get through it'. But we acted like spoiled children and blamed the Govt for not having sufficient magic powers to make the bad monster go away.
Its a massive mess, but I think we are slowly, interminably beginning to claw our way out of it. The data on the vaccines is really promising and we should be celebrating their success rather than castigating ourselves with threats of vaccine passports, booster shots for the autumn and coerced vaccination of children.
Elysium said:
Its a massive mess, but I think we are slowly, interminably beginning to claw our way out of it. The data on the vaccines is really promising and we should be celebrating their success rather than castigating ourselves with threats of vaccine passports, booster shots for the autumn and coerced vaccination of children.
We wont be fully “clawed out” until the government have taken advantage of the situation to force their digital ID scheme (marketed as “vaccine passports”) onto us. No way are they going to let a good crisis go to waste. *That* is why we are still in lockdown right now.markyb_lcy said:
Elysium said:
Its a massive mess, but I think we are slowly, interminably beginning to claw our way out of it. The data on the vaccines is really promising and we should be celebrating their success rather than castigating ourselves with threats of vaccine passports, booster shots for the autumn and coerced vaccination of children.
We wont be fully “clawed out” until the government have taken advantage of the situation to force their digital ID scheme (marketed as “vaccine passports”) onto us. No way are they going to let a good crisis go to waste. *That* is why we are still in lockdown right now.RSTurboPaul said:
markyb_lcy said:
Elysium said:
Its a massive mess, but I think we are slowly, interminably beginning to claw our way out of it. The data on the vaccines is really promising and we should be celebrating their success rather than castigating ourselves with threats of vaccine passports, booster shots for the autumn and coerced vaccination of children.
We wont be fully “clawed out” until the government have taken advantage of the situation to force their digital ID scheme (marketed as “vaccine passports”) onto us. No way are they going to let a good crisis go to waste. *That* is why we are still in lockdown right now.NGee said:
yellowjack said:
Yes. Because I can hold an opinion, and even form one for myself (old fashioned, I know) but I'm not in a position to force that opinion upon others, no matter how thin the air from which it was conjured. The government, on the other hand, seems perfectly capable of sieving out only the evidence which they like, and then using it to formulate laws which restrict freedom. It's also disturbing to see how little critical thinking is being done by ordinary people on the matter. There seems to be a very vocal element in society which absolutely loves being restricted, despite the untold damage it is doing to people with their entire lives ahead of them. I'm not bothered so much, I've had a life and lived it as well as I could. But my sons are struggling. Struggling to get and/or keep work. Struggling to form and/or maintain relationships. They've gone from "the world is at your feet" to "oh no! don't go out into the world, because that nasty, vindictive sniper 'Covid-19' is waiting outside the front door waiting to pick you off". But it isn't. Covid-19 is a storm in a teacup. Even the numbers coming out of India need putting in perspective. Divide them by 20 for a start, if you want to compare them with UK figures. Then factor in mass migration of already ill people to the capital city, and the cultural and socio-economic differences between us in the UK and ordinary Indians. Yet Boris and Co are clinging to the situation in India and trying to terrify us into believing it's about to happen here in the same way. So yes, lying through their teeth and creating terror through exaggeration and misinformation definitely IS scaremongering. Whereas I'm just some random musing on the internet. You can choose to "join my cult", openly mock me, or just laugh and ignore me. None of us is legally permitted to ignore the government, though. not while they keep businesses closed. It doesn't need a Ted Hastings to work out that there is currently a lot of misfeasance going on in a lot of public offices. I'm sure the truth WILL out, but by then it will be too late. Ordinary people will suffer illness and even death due to undiagnosed, late diagnosed, or wrongly diagnosed illnesses other than Covid-19, and the mental health and financial fortunes of others will be left in tatters. And for what? To save a handful of people who were close to shuffling off anyway. The cost to the many far outweighs the benefits being lavished on the vanishingly tiny group whose existence has been provably extended by these measures, and the sooner this pantomime faces it's final curtain the better.
Agreed 100%I also find the bit I've highlighted as extremely worrying.
I never realised how easy it was to brainwash 'normal' people.
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-asch-conformity-e...
Further reasons why it has been so easy are explained here.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-conformity-27...
The government has had the added advantage of being able to apply pressure by criminalising what would otherwise be normal behaviour.
e.g. visiting other members of one's family.
Red Devil said:
Are you unaware of Solomon Asch's conformity experiment?
https://www.verywellmind.com/the-asch-conformity-e...
Further reasons why it has been so easy are explained here.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-conformity-27...
The government has had the added advantage of being able to apply pressure by criminalising what would otherwise be normal behaviour.
e.g. visiting other members of one's family.
That better describes the more vocal group in here, although it has gone very quiet in here. Looks like the conspiracy theories are (unsurprisingly) not panning out as was hoped. https://www.verywellmind.com/the-asch-conformity-e...
Further reasons why it has been so easy are explained here.
https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-conformity-27...
The government has had the added advantage of being able to apply pressure by criminalising what would otherwise be normal behaviour.
e.g. visiting other members of one's family.
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