Discussion
Hi all.
I'm after any advice on my girlfriend's work situation please.
She is a hairdresser & is returning to work on Saturday. She is on a zero hours contract & has been working at the same Salon for nearly 7 years. She had a meeting yesterday & her boss has told her (& the 3 other girls on the same T's & C's) that they will be working 09:00 - 20:00 every day (7 days a week) for the next 2 to 3 weeks. This includes half an hour break per day.
Her previous hours varied a bit but she usually had Mon (& or) Tues off every week & worked 09:00 - 18:30 but usually had an early finish or two, & it was 11:00 - 17:00 on Sunday.
Now I think that her employer can't force her to do the hours, but they can ask?...& if she agrees she has to sign/agree to opt out of the 48 hour week?
If she refuses then her boss can potentially sack her, as with zero hours he doesn't need a reason??
The bit I think may be illegal is half an hour break only all day?
I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice as I could be completely wrong but I do worry if she refuses to do the hours & consecutive days she could risk getting the boot? Her boss is a bit of a sod anyway & is quite often taking advantage & is used to the girls not standing up to him. She has had many weeks in the past when he's asked her to work the full 7 days, which she always has.
Thanks,
Ben
I'm after any advice on my girlfriend's work situation please.
She is a hairdresser & is returning to work on Saturday. She is on a zero hours contract & has been working at the same Salon for nearly 7 years. She had a meeting yesterday & her boss has told her (& the 3 other girls on the same T's & C's) that they will be working 09:00 - 20:00 every day (7 days a week) for the next 2 to 3 weeks. This includes half an hour break per day.
Her previous hours varied a bit but she usually had Mon (& or) Tues off every week & worked 09:00 - 18:30 but usually had an early finish or two, & it was 11:00 - 17:00 on Sunday.
Now I think that her employer can't force her to do the hours, but they can ask?...& if she agrees she has to sign/agree to opt out of the 48 hour week?
If she refuses then her boss can potentially sack her, as with zero hours he doesn't need a reason??
The bit I think may be illegal is half an hour break only all day?
I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice as I could be completely wrong but I do worry if she refuses to do the hours & consecutive days she could risk getting the boot? Her boss is a bit of a sod anyway & is quite often taking advantage & is used to the girls not standing up to him. She has had many weeks in the past when he's asked her to work the full 7 days, which she always has.
Thanks,
Ben
Not sure on the legal side, but I would GUESS that your missus could use the fact that he has a a massive pent up demand (and needs the cash himself) as a lever. Even to just get some more breaks dotted throughout the day.
A fine line between knowing he needs her to deliver the work and using it to advantage, against making too much noise and getting replaced with another hairdresser only too keen for the work though.
A fine line between knowing he needs her to deliver the work and using it to advantage, against making too much noise and getting replaced with another hairdresser only too keen for the work though.
Thanks for the replies.
Her main issue is the no days off. She's also pretty sure the 2-3 weeks will turn into much longer. She doesn't want/need the money but also was expecting to do a bit extra than usual due to the likely demand.
She is going to speak to her boss about having at least one day off a week & she is kind of thinking/hoping that he couldn't do without her at the moment (she has is the most experienced there) but I just hope it doesn't backfire! Yes, it is a fine line!
If it seems like he (her boss) isn't breaking any rules, then it appears she's just going to ask nicely about a day off a week & accept whatever he says.
Thanks,
Ben
Her main issue is the no days off. She's also pretty sure the 2-3 weeks will turn into much longer. She doesn't want/need the money but also was expecting to do a bit extra than usual due to the likely demand.
She is going to speak to her boss about having at least one day off a week & she is kind of thinking/hoping that he couldn't do without her at the moment (she has is the most experienced there) but I just hope it doesn't backfire! Yes, it is a fine line!
If it seems like he (her boss) isn't breaking any rules, then it appears she's just going to ask nicely about a day off a week & accept whatever he says.
Thanks,
Ben
benm3evo said:
Hi all.
Her boss is a bit of a sod anyway & is quite often taking advantage & is used to the girls not standing up to him. She has had many weeks in the past when he's asked her to work the full 7 days, which she always has.
The trouble is that the guy obviously wants to deliver as much as possible which I presume is financially good for the staff as well. The only suggestion is to try and negotiate with owner - but you've answered that question. I also presume there's a lot of possible staff for the boss to choose from. Addressing it as a legal problem of employment law will only end up in one place.Her boss is a bit of a sod anyway & is quite often taking advantage & is used to the girls not standing up to him. She has had many weeks in the past when he's asked her to work the full 7 days, which she always has.
Bert
Just think through the other options & then make a decision.....
4 staff - all do 7 days
alternatively they each do 6 and you hire an additional other person to cover the 4 days off.
Similar scenario if they don't want to work evenings.
Then things return to normal & you have 5 staff on zero hours, so you just reduce the hours of everyone proportionately - or you zero the hours of a 'troublemaker'.
No right answer - consider the options & potential consequences - then make a decision.
4 staff - all do 7 days
alternatively they each do 6 and you hire an additional other person to cover the 4 days off.
Similar scenario if they don't want to work evenings.
Then things return to normal & you have 5 staff on zero hours, so you just reduce the hours of everyone proportionately - or you zero the hours of a 'troublemaker'.
No right answer - consider the options & potential consequences - then make a decision.
BertBert said:
The trouble is that the guy obviously wants to deliver as much as possible which I presume is financially good for the staff as well. The only suggestion is to try and negotiate with owner - but you've answered that question. I also presume there's a lot of possible staff for the boss to choose from. Addressing it as a legal problem of employment law will only end up in one place.
Bert
Without going into too much detail, a lot of which I don't know the full story anyway, the bloke does seem like a bit of a dodgy geezer. He is definitely focused on the pound note & doesn't really care how he gets it, but I suppose you have to be to some extent. He also still pays them in cash, which I can't work out why, but they do have a payslip with tax, national insurance details etc.Bert
The one reason he's given for the long hours, no days off is they are short staffed but that excuse is rolled out every time he wants them to work an extra day.
Basically I think he wants to get as much out of as few a staff as possible. A lot of it, to me, seems morally harsh but perhaps not legally wrong.
Cheers,
Ben
Carbon Sasquatch said:
Just think through the other options & then make a decision.....
4 staff - all do 7 days
alternatively they each do 6 and you hire an additional other person to cover the 4 days off.
Similar scenario if they don't want to work evenings.
Then things return to normal & you have 5 staff on zero hours, so you just reduce the hours of everyone proportionately - or you zero the hours of a 'troublemaker'.
No right answer - consider the options & potential consequences - then make a decision.
Good points, hadn't really thought of it like that. Could end up shooting themselves in the foot.4 staff - all do 7 days
alternatively they each do 6 and you hire an additional other person to cover the 4 days off.
Similar scenario if they don't want to work evenings.
Then things return to normal & you have 5 staff on zero hours, so you just reduce the hours of everyone proportionately - or you zero the hours of a 'troublemaker'.
No right answer - consider the options & potential consequences - then make a decision.
Perhaps it's best to ride out the 2-3 weeks & see what happens after that. I will pass on these points to her.
Cheers,
Ben
Surely you are outside the European working time directive and that is not enough breaks.
For a 11 hour day I would expect a minimum of 30 minutes lunch plus two 15 min breaks, also what is her commute time as you should have a minimum 11 hours rest between working.
To put it bluntly I’d tell him to pay an extra 20% or FRO.
For a 11 hour day I would expect a minimum of 30 minutes lunch plus two 15 min breaks, also what is her commute time as you should have a minimum 11 hours rest between working.
To put it bluntly I’d tell him to pay an extra 20% or FRO.
Is she paid hourly?
If she is paid hourly and can find something to spend the money on the common sense approach right now might be to take the extra money. As has been said, the risk of employing someone else is that they are good enough that it affects the keenness to retain certain individuals after this has passed. The argument about doing it with as few people as possible - if they're paid hourly - is weak at best as if you're paying for 50 working hours a day it costs you (thereabouts) the same for five people to do it as it does for ten people to do it.
Its oft trotted out - and occasionally unfairly - but particularly in retail and salons the line "grateful to have a job at the end of this" is very much something to bear in mind. There are a LOT of places that are not going to survive reopening and the changes that this period is likely to have brought about long term, and smashing a few weeks work for a 65% pay bump is a great way to "show support" whilst (frankly) absolutely rinsing it at the same time. That's got to be a half decent holiday abroad at the end of it...
EU WTD is something you can opt out of anyway, and based on her previous hours she was precariously close on some weeks anyway. Bank the money, have a discussion if it goes on much further than the three weeks would be my stance, unless it significantly impacted other people (i.e. dependents).
If she is paid hourly and can find something to spend the money on the common sense approach right now might be to take the extra money. As has been said, the risk of employing someone else is that they are good enough that it affects the keenness to retain certain individuals after this has passed. The argument about doing it with as few people as possible - if they're paid hourly - is weak at best as if you're paying for 50 working hours a day it costs you (thereabouts) the same for five people to do it as it does for ten people to do it.
Its oft trotted out - and occasionally unfairly - but particularly in retail and salons the line "grateful to have a job at the end of this" is very much something to bear in mind. There are a LOT of places that are not going to survive reopening and the changes that this period is likely to have brought about long term, and smashing a few weeks work for a 65% pay bump is a great way to "show support" whilst (frankly) absolutely rinsing it at the same time. That's got to be a half decent holiday abroad at the end of it...
EU WTD is something you can opt out of anyway, and based on her previous hours she was precariously close on some weeks anyway. Bank the money, have a discussion if it goes on much further than the three weeks would be my stance, unless it significantly impacted other people (i.e. dependents).
helix402 said:
Thanks, I will have a read through. Lord.Vader said:
Surely you are outside the European working time directive and that is not enough breaks.
For a 11 hour day I would expect a minimum of 30 minutes lunch plus two 15 min breaks, also what is her commute time as you should have a minimum 11 hours rest between working.
To put it bluntly I’d tell him to pay an extra 20% or FRO.
This was my thinking, including the last comment!! She only has a 20 minute commute so no issue there.For a 11 hour day I would expect a minimum of 30 minutes lunch plus two 15 min breaks, also what is her commute time as you should have a minimum 11 hours rest between working.
To put it bluntly I’d tell him to pay an extra 20% or FRO.
WonkeyDonkey said:
If she doesn't massively need the cash then I would negotiate hard just to work what she wants to work. If they wanted more they should have gave her a proper contract in the first place.
Is he providing adequate PPE?
My initial advice was just this, but she is a bit paranoid about losing the job altogether I think. I don't think that would be the end of the world as she's ok financially but she's very independant & doesn't want to rely on anyone else inbetween jobs, which I understand.Is he providing adequate PPE?
Yes, they have sorted out all the PPE, at least.
Cheers,
Ben
Pegscratch said:
Is she paid hourly?
If she is paid hourly and can find something to spend the money on the common sense approach right now might be to take the extra money. As has been said, the risk of employing someone else is that they are good enough that it affects the keenness to retain certain individuals after this has passed. The argument about doing it with as few people as possible - if they're paid hourly - is weak at best as if you're paying for 50 working hours a day it costs you (thereabouts) the same for five people to do it as it does for ten people to do it.
Its oft trotted out - and occasionally unfairly - but particularly in retail and salons the line "grateful to have a job at the end of this" is very much something to bear in mind. There are a LOT of places that are not going to survive reopening and the changes that this period is likely to have brought about long term, and smashing a few weeks work for a 65% pay bump is a great way to "show support" whilst (frankly) absolutely rinsing it at the same time. That's got to be a half decent holiday abroad at the end of it...
EU WTD is something you can opt out of anyway, and based on her previous hours she was precariously close on some weeks anyway. Bank the money, have a discussion if it goes on much further than the three weeks would be my stance, unless it significantly impacted other people (i.e. dependents).
Yes, she's paid hourly.If she is paid hourly and can find something to spend the money on the common sense approach right now might be to take the extra money. As has been said, the risk of employing someone else is that they are good enough that it affects the keenness to retain certain individuals after this has passed. The argument about doing it with as few people as possible - if they're paid hourly - is weak at best as if you're paying for 50 working hours a day it costs you (thereabouts) the same for five people to do it as it does for ten people to do it.
Its oft trotted out - and occasionally unfairly - but particularly in retail and salons the line "grateful to have a job at the end of this" is very much something to bear in mind. There are a LOT of places that are not going to survive reopening and the changes that this period is likely to have brought about long term, and smashing a few weeks work for a 65% pay bump is a great way to "show support" whilst (frankly) absolutely rinsing it at the same time. That's got to be a half decent holiday abroad at the end of it...
EU WTD is something you can opt out of anyway, and based on her previous hours she was precariously close on some weeks anyway. Bank the money, have a discussion if it goes on much further than the three weeks would be my stance, unless it significantly impacted other people (i.e. dependents).
Perhaps we've been looking at it the wrong way & should look at the positives of the extra money & see how it stands after the 3 weeks. She is going to be bloody knackered but, in the current climate, things could be worse. I will pass on all the thoughts to her & see what she thinks. Her mindset seemed to be changing slightly after being quite put out initially!
Cheers,
Ben
To look at this from another angle, all hairdressers are going to be very busy for a while and I doubt he wants to lose a member of staff during this time. Also I'd have thought finding a position with another salon might not be too difficult. This could put your partner in a stronger position to negotiate.
GreenDog said:
To look at this from another angle, all hairdressers are going to be very busy for a while and I doubt he wants to lose a member of staff during this time. Also I'd have thought finding a position with another salon might not be too difficult. This could put your partner in a stronger position to negotiate.
Temper that with a lot of people who have decided that they have spent far too much money on their hair over the years; colours, expensive cuts and actually those with shorter hair having done it themselves and women now deciding that "the cat is out of the bag" with their greys and just accepting that, there is likely to be a big demand now for those who want to get it done and have waited months but the run rate afterwards may be lower.I wouldn't be entering any work negotiations at this point in time in the current climate with any sense of being largely irreplaceable or indispensable. One, think how the world reacted to all the organisations like BA who have seized the opportunity to "take advantage of" the situation - and how people might see you trying to play that out in reverse, and two, diplomacy and tact will net you better long term results, even if being bolshy nets you things in the short term.
That's not a job, that's extortion!
In my opinion, zero hours contracts should be made illegal. (We don't have any work for you but you can't work for anyone else.)
How were these ever allowed? It is a just a form of modern day slavery.
If the boss wants staff he should employ them properly, if he only wants staff sometimes then use agency staff.
In the OP's case I would tell the boss to shove his ridiculous (and probably illegal) hours up his arse.
If he comes back with better money and less hours, fair enough. If he doesn't then stick a pair of clippers in the car and start building up a client base.
Plenty of people prefer to have their hair cut at home and you can work when you want and charge (within reason) what you want.
This could be the beginning of the business opportunity you've been waiting for!
Not sure if this answers the OP's question but it might be something to think about. (And it gives me a chance to have a rant about zero hours contracts, which I hate with a vengeance!)
In my opinion, zero hours contracts should be made illegal. (We don't have any work for you but you can't work for anyone else.)
How were these ever allowed? It is a just a form of modern day slavery.
If the boss wants staff he should employ them properly, if he only wants staff sometimes then use agency staff.
In the OP's case I would tell the boss to shove his ridiculous (and probably illegal) hours up his arse.
If he comes back with better money and less hours, fair enough. If he doesn't then stick a pair of clippers in the car and start building up a client base.
Plenty of people prefer to have their hair cut at home and you can work when you want and charge (within reason) what you want.
This could be the beginning of the business opportunity you've been waiting for!
Not sure if this answers the OP's question but it might be something to think about. (And it gives me a chance to have a rant about zero hours contracts, which I hate with a vengeance!)
Sounds like the employer is sailing pretty close to the wind on a few fronts.
From what I have seen, and my wife's experience in getting an appointment (loyal customer can't get done until mid August). Many salons are working with two groups of staff, working seperate days. if one of them or a customer gets traced they could be out of action for two weeks, but at least can work with the other team (assuming they don't get the same). Each team can then do longer days 3 or 4 days a week - Works out ok, and they don't get worked into the ground.
From what I have seen, and my wife's experience in getting an appointment (loyal customer can't get done until mid August). Many salons are working with two groups of staff, working seperate days. if one of them or a customer gets traced they could be out of action for two weeks, but at least can work with the other team (assuming they don't get the same). Each team can then do longer days 3 or 4 days a week - Works out ok, and they don't get worked into the ground.
NGee said:
In my opinion, zero hours contracts should be made illegal. (We don't have any work for you but you can't work for anyone else.)
How were these ever allowed? It is a just a form of modern day slavery.
Have you spoken to anyone on a zero hours contract? I'm certainly not aware of any of the people on them that I know who also have clauses that say they can't work elsewhere. I think one of them is on a non-compete, but can't work for anyone else? Tosh.How were these ever allowed? It is a just a form of modern day slavery.
They, like all things, have people that abuse them; but this bizarre view that they are the devil's work when students practically live off them is quite strange.
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