Black box insurance and advisory speed limits
Discussion
Lord Marylebone said:
Based on how I behaved during my first 3 or 4 years of driving, I would feel much better if my future child had a BB.
+1Not long after I passed my test I somehow managed to get insured on my Dad’s company car. To this day I still don’t understand how, but I had a letter from the fleet manager confirming it and everything, for when I got stopped by the Police, which happened a few times.
Within 2 years of passing my test I’d crashed it twice. Once into a ditch when I swerved heavily after being distracted by a mate rolling a spliff next to me, and another up the side of another car when I was sliding about on snow covered roads. Both were utterly crap accidents that were caused by inexperience and overconfidence. I didn’t set out to cause either accident and until they happened I did not expect them, such if the curse of being a young man driving a car far too powerful for him (which i also didn’t own)
If I’d had a BB I would’ve been seriously narked off but I’m sure neither accident would’ve happened.
Lord Marylebone said:
Based on how I behaved during my first 3 or 4 years of driving, I would feel much better if my future child had a BB.
In fact, when I think about the driving of my friends back then, 2 of which were killed simply by driving like idiots, then I can’t see any reason to not have a black box.
Driving lessons and a driving test teach you almost nothing, and you only start learning to drive once you have a licence, and I would rather that learning took place within the speed limits and with driving that was ‘smooth and careful’ (as per parameters measured by the BB).
A friend of mine’s son turned 17 a couple of years ago, and stated quite simply “if he drives like I did after he passes his test, he won’t make it to his 18th birthday, so he’s getting a black box on his car and that’s that”
Myself and all my friends were polite, well behaved, middle class kids who would do (mostly) what our parents asked of us, yet once we got behind the wheel. It was like ‘Wacky Racers’, purely because we liked cars, and it absolutely resulted in deaths.
I have no doubt my parents didn’t even realise the half of what I was up to.
But 124mph absolutely flat out in a Golf GTi 16v, in a 30mph limit, aged 18, was what I was up to.
I can’t see the downsides to BB/trackers for new drivers. It simply forces them to behave relatively sensibly, while allowing them to build up a couple of years of driving experience.
We will look back in another 5 years and consider it absolute lunacy that new drivers were allowed on the roads without a tracker or BB.
But I disagree with the logic that a black box teaches ANYONE anything.In fact, when I think about the driving of my friends back then, 2 of which were killed simply by driving like idiots, then I can’t see any reason to not have a black box.
Driving lessons and a driving test teach you almost nothing, and you only start learning to drive once you have a licence, and I would rather that learning took place within the speed limits and with driving that was ‘smooth and careful’ (as per parameters measured by the BB).
A friend of mine’s son turned 17 a couple of years ago, and stated quite simply “if he drives like I did after he passes his test, he won’t make it to his 18th birthday, so he’s getting a black box on his car and that’s that”
Myself and all my friends were polite, well behaved, middle class kids who would do (mostly) what our parents asked of us, yet once we got behind the wheel. It was like ‘Wacky Racers’, purely because we liked cars, and it absolutely resulted in deaths.
I have no doubt my parents didn’t even realise the half of what I was up to.
But 124mph absolutely flat out in a Golf GTi 16v, in a 30mph limit, aged 18, was what I was up to.
I can’t see the downsides to BB/trackers for new drivers. It simply forces them to behave relatively sensibly, while allowing them to build up a couple of years of driving experience.
We will look back in another 5 years and consider it absolute lunacy that new drivers were allowed on the roads without a tracker or BB.
All it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
xjay1337 said:
But I disagree with the logic that a black box teaches ANYONE anything.
All it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
YesAll it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
I'd be doing both. But sometimes telling your child they need to do something and them actually doing that something are very very different.
xjay1337 said:
But I disagree with the logic that a black box teaches ANYONE anything.
All it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
No-one is saying it does teach. It's a tool to modify behaviour. There are many tools to modify behaviour that don't teach including fiscal and social engineering, behavioural psychology etc.All it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
xjay1337 said:
But I disagree with the logic that a black box teaches ANYONE anything.
All it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
If a black box gives new drivers time to experience the various things that happen on the road that aren't taught in the test, and to actually get experience driving so that they naturally become more proficient at it, then surely that is a net positive? Experience is the best experience.All it does is impose arbitrary limits for speeding etc.
It doesn't teach anything at all.
Certainly if anyone cared about their child so much as to enforce a black box then it would be better to have them do some advanced driver training and then not have a black box?
As has been previously said - the current driving test teaches you to pass, not to drive. If all a black box achieves is act as a virtual nagging passenger then imo it will have served its purpose. By the time a new driver has got 1-2 years under their belt they won't need it, and their insurance premiums will be lower as a bonus.
BertBert said:
No-one is saying it does teach. It's a tool to modify behaviour. There are many tools to modify behaviour that don't teach including fiscal and social engineering, behavioural psychology etc.
Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
No there are no studies that I can find for this.Also I don't think there's much arbitrary about how it monitors against speed limits. That's absolute.
Do you have any stats on the effectiveness of teaching advanced driving versus black boxes in accident reduction?
Bert
I don't think any are done.
Would be interesting if one was done.
Anyway this is all my personal opinion.
I don't think that a voiceless box that arbitrarily (and in some cases inaccurately) rates your driving based on some odd algorithm.
I don't think the "extra savings" (IE the "reward for good driving") are enough , yet the punishment for making a "mistake" (again based on an algorithm) or exceeding mileage can be insane.
I don't relate not crashing to being a good driver.
And I don't personally like the "big brother is watching" attitude.
Luckily they were not really used when I was 18/19 and I have no need for one now. So for me personally it makes no odds.
But as I said, my kids, I'd never force them to use a black box, only if their cost necessitated it, but I wouldn't send them away with a black box and not care. If I was so concerned for my childs welfare on the road as to be forcing them to have a black box I would rather just invest in some actual tuition which will be much better for them long term. But of course that costs me money, not them :-)
xjay1337 said:
But I disagree with the logic that a black box teaches ANYONE anything.
Maybe it doesn't, but what it does do is create an environment where they make the mistakes (that they learn from) at a far lower speed. If you can f
k up at 30 mph and have a close shave, and learn from it, that's better than fking up at 60mph, crashing, and learning from it. TwigtheWonderkid said:
Maybe it doesn't, but what it does do is create an environment where they make the mistakes (that they learn from) at a far lower speed. If you can fk up at 30 mph and have a close shave, and learn from it, that's better than fking up at 60mph, crashing, and learning from it.
I agree in theory k up at 30 mph and have a close shave, and learn from it, that's better than fking up at 60mph, crashing, and learning from it. But given that only 6% of all accidents are due to excess speed (source: RAC Foundation) then does it really make any difference?
I very much doubt many crashes from "dem yoofs" are happening at significantly over the speed limit. Are there any stats for crashes involving under 25's regarding fault, cause etc?
Most crashes surely happen within the speed limits and due to lack of concentration or not seeing another car etc. So effectively limiting the car doesn't in itself help? Maybe I'm being thick.
Edit : Old data but from 2013 - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
Over 50% of accidents 17-24 are due to not looking properly.
Edited by xjay1337 on Tuesday 7th July 11:33
xjay1337 said:
I don't think the "extra savings" (IE the "reward for good driving") are enough , yet the punishment for making a "mistake" (again based on an algorithm) or exceeding mileage can be insane.
I don't relate not crashing to being a good driver.
Your first point is just plain wrong. The savings can be as much as £1000 upfront (my son's quote was an £800 saving) and I doubt if anyone will be hit with additional charges of anything like that. I don't relate not crashing to being a good driver.
Secondly, insurance companies don't give a toss about you being a good driver, just an accident free driver. Or a safe driver, as being accident free is safe. The BB helps achieve that.
If black boxes didn't result in fewer accidents and/or accidents that have a lower claim value, then what possible incentive would insurance companies have to offer often signficant discounts on policies that include them vs the same policy without it?
They're not doing anyone any favours. The data tells them that black box drivers represent a lower risk to them, pure and simple. No emotion, no bias, just raw data. If it didn't then the policies wouldn't be cheaper. It really is that simple.
They're not doing anyone any favours. The data tells them that black box drivers represent a lower risk to them, pure and simple. No emotion, no bias, just raw data. If it didn't then the policies wouldn't be cheaper. It really is that simple.
xjay1337 said:
But given that only 6% of all accidents are due to excess speed (source: RAC Foundation) then does it really make any difference?
Yes. The stats that have been released by insurers who have released them show a 40% reduction in young driver accidents if a BB is fitted, and a 60% drop in claims costs (the accidents that do happen are less serious). TwigtheWonderkid said:
Your first point is just plain wrong. The savings can be as much as £1000 upfront (my son's quote was an £800 saving) and I doubt if anyone will be hit with additional charges of anything like that.
Secondly, insurance companies don't give a toss about you being a good driver, just an accident free driver. Or a safe driver, as being accident free is safe. The BB helps achieve that.
You're misunderstanding me.Secondly, insurance companies don't give a toss about you being a good driver, just an accident free driver. Or a safe driver, as being accident free is safe. The BB helps achieve that.
Some black box companies offer further discounts if your "driver score" is good or if you have XX days of good driving.
But then if you make some small infringements (IE slight speeding, or mistakenly not knowing a speed limit in an area) you can get additional fines etc.
Plus costs to remove the black box, costs if you can't make original appointment, costs for excess mileage, costs for driving at "odd hours" (in their opinion).
Also, insurance companies don't care - but we as road users should care, we want good drivers on the road surely, not just accident free drivers.
Certainly based at how many people on this forum moan about how crap other drivers are................
"mistakenly not knowing the speed limit in an area" sounds like a pretty weak excuse to me. How many people genuinely don't know that?
I'd question the use of the word "fines" for behaviours that run counter to a contract you've signed up to. Presumably people taking out insurance policies, and contracts in general, read what it is they're signing up to and agree to it (or not - seemingly). Should there be much consideration given to people who enter into contracts with no intention of complying with the terms?
Maybe this might help - https://www.admiral.com/magazine/guides/motor/myth... - rather than reading Daily Mail articles.
I'd question the use of the word "fines" for behaviours that run counter to a contract you've signed up to. Presumably people taking out insurance policies, and contracts in general, read what it is they're signing up to and agree to it (or not - seemingly). Should there be much consideration given to people who enter into contracts with no intention of complying with the terms?
Maybe this might help - https://www.admiral.com/magazine/guides/motor/myth... - rather than reading Daily Mail articles.
xjay1337 said:
Countdown said:
Why not do both?
both could work.but both are not being done in this instance.
If I'm £1,000 better off for having a black box I'll have a black box
if I'm £1,000 better off for having advanced driving lessons I'd have driving lessons
It doesn't make sense to ask "Why would I have a black box when i could have advanced driving lessons instead"?
xjay1337 said:
Also, insurance companies don't care - but we as road users should care, we want good drivers on the road surely, not just accident free drivers.
Nope. Give me the rest of my life with me and my family having no interaction with crashing drivers, and not crashing ourselves, and I'll take that all day long. xjay1337 said:
You're misunderstanding me.
Some black box companies offer further discounts if your "driver score" is good or if you have XX days of good driving.
But then if you make some small infringements (IE slight speeding, or mistakenly not knowing a speed limit in an area) you can get additional fines etc.
Plus costs to remove the black box, costs if you can't make original appointment, costs for excess mileage, costs for driving at "odd hours" (in their opinion).
All my sons's friends had black box policies, as we live in London and young driver insurance is very pricey. Not aware of anyone getting hit with extra charges. I'm sure it happens but rarely. Most black box policyholders are very happy. You don't get fined for slight speeding, but repetitive speeding. And usually after you've been warned. Most boxes don't have a time curfew but if you choose one that does, stick to it. You don't buy a phone with 500mb of data, then moan if you go outside that limit. It's your choice what limits you choose. Some black box companies offer further discounts if your "driver score" is good or if you have XX days of good driving.
But then if you make some small infringements (IE slight speeding, or mistakenly not knowing a speed limit in an area) you can get additional fines etc.
Plus costs to remove the black box, costs if you can't make original appointment, costs for excess mileage, costs for driving at "odd hours" (in their opinion).
TwigtheWonderkid said:
xjay1337 said:
But I disagree with the logic that a black box teaches ANYONE anything.
Maybe it doesn't, but what it does do is create an environment where they make the mistakes (that they learn from) at a far lower speed. If you can fk up at 30 mph and have a close shave, and learn from it, that's better than fking up at 60mph, crashing, and learning from it. I can only speak from my own experience, but my own mishaps as a new driver were simply caused by being a pillock and trying to drive too fast, with almost zero driving experience, or experience of operating a motor vehicle.
If nothing else, a black box makes sure new drivers stick to the speed limits while they gain a couple of years of actual driving experience on the road.
I've made a few mistakes on the roads, i've ran out of talent a few times too.. thankfully never resulting in any serious injury or damage to my car - i only ever pushed the boundaries on empty roads late at night, learning, reacting and perfecting how i kept the car on the road.
this 'training' in my opinion has saved me having more serious accidents when something out of my control happens.
i understand insurance and risk, and the requirement to make as much money with the minimum chance of having to pay out - but they are robbing new drivers of the opportunity to learn proper road craft.
having said that, i also accept that there are some complete cocksocket youths that wouldn't be as considerate as me and just drive like a knobhead no matter what the situation was.
this 'training' in my opinion has saved me having more serious accidents when something out of my control happens.
i understand insurance and risk, and the requirement to make as much money with the minimum chance of having to pay out - but they are robbing new drivers of the opportunity to learn proper road craft.
having said that, i also accept that there are some complete cocksocket youths that wouldn't be as considerate as me and just drive like a knobhead no matter what the situation was.
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