Fly Tippers caught red handed... and nothing done!
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
Escy said:
Can't they just dish out a fine based on the video?
No. The UK still has the rule of law. The rule of law and due process extend to all, no matter how much we may dislike them.
Breadvan72 said:
Criminal courts apply strict rules of evidence. Hearsay is only admissible in limited circumstances.
Hearsay is representation of fact or opinion made by a person otherwise than in oral evidence in court, when tendered as evidence of any fact asserted. Thus a photo or a film is hearsay and calls for verification by oral evidence.
Thanks Breadvan, clears it up. Whilst snapping away I thought, if I take a movie of the crime, surely this is all they need. The council told me that as its taken by a member of the public it needs to be backed up with a name and attendance in court.Hearsay is representation of fact or opinion made by a person otherwise than in oral evidence in court, when tendered as evidence of any fact asserted. Thus a photo or a film is hearsay and calls for verification by oral evidence.
Most people I would be willing to ensure crime doesn't pay, in this instance they will live to fly tip another day...and another.... and another.... and another....
SpeckledJim said:
Breadvan72 said:
The former.
Any guesses as to the proportion of the latter?Because otherwise we're saying that travellers are more likely to end up in prison for any given crime than a non-traveller, which sounds a bit unlikely.
Breadvan72 said:
The former. The PH myth that travellers are immune from the criminal law is a myth.
Not entirely a myth. Yes stolen cars and property maybe be recovered when it's chased back totheir site but how often are they prosecuted and convicted? I bet it's 1 in 10 at best. Or atleast that's what the police in the family estimate.Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 26th October 15:54
Still the ones that murdered one of their mates in our local with shotgun did get caught.
Seems that as long as they keep it to the 'victimless' crimes like stealing insured goods and fly tipping they're alright.
Breadvan72 said:
The former. The PH myth that travellers are immune from the criminal law is a myth.
Mate of mine’s a landscaper/tree surgeon.
Village he lives in is regularly scouted by gentlemen of the nomadic clan.
His garage was relieved of his tools a number of times before he the installed Ring cams.
Later caught two red handed. Scuffle ensued. Another neighbour(an ex cop) happened upon the scene in his car and drove into one of the nomads, and assisted in holding onto them until police arrived.
I say police arrived, the regulars turned up but then refused to get involved, remaining half a mile away until the armed units turned up.
End result two nomads held until court date then jailed. 3 years later no retribution thankfully, despite the extended nomadic family attending court and blowing kisses, staring down said mate and ex-cop neighbour.
SpeckledJim said:
Breadvan72 said:
The former.
Any guesses as to the proportion of the latter?Because otherwise we're saying that travellers are more likely to end up in prison for any given crime than a non-traveller, which sounds a bit unlikely.
The point about highlighting that so many are in prison (relative to their population), is in response to the childish 'the authorities are scared' pub reply.
La Liga said:
stuff
You do talk some s
t at times. As mentioned before 'we' are looking at two police 'reports'
over a couple of things and they are the stuff of fantasy/fairytale whilst at the same time showing their own glaring inability to even sort out the most basic of problems. That isn't just my view but those who look at the 'reports' and laugh
.I will be honest though one of the colleagues we chat to does get a bit upset about it as she knows how spurious the reports are but her better half is a copper
ChocolateFrog said:
Breadvan72 said:
The former. The PH myth that travellers are immune from the criminal law is a myth.
Not entirely a myth. Yes stolen cars and property maybe be recovered when it's chased back totheir site but how often are they prosecuted and convicted? I bet it's 1 in 10 at best. Or atleast that's what the police in the family estimate.Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 26th October 15:54
Still the ones that murdered one of their mates in our local with shotgun did get caught.
Seems that as long as they keep it to the 'victimless' crimes like stealing insured goods and fly tipping they're alright.
What percentage of crime in general do you suppose leads to a conviction? Why are there travellers in prison for theft if you are correct in your assumptions?
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 27th October 08:14
speedyguy said:
La Liga said:
stuff
You do talk some st at times. As mentioned before 'we' are looking at two police 'reports'
over a couple of things and they are the stuff of fantasy/fairytale whilst at the same time showing their own glaring inability to even sort out the most basic of problems. That isn't just my view but those who look at the 'reports' and laugh
.I will be honest though one of the colleagues we chat to does get a bit upset about it as she knows how spurious the reports are but her better half is a copper
La Liga said:
SpeckledJim said:
Breadvan72 said:
The former.
Any guesses as to the proportion of the latter?Because otherwise we're saying that travellers are more likely to end up in prison for any given crime than a non-traveller, which sounds a bit unlikely.
The point about highlighting that so many are in prison (relative to their population), is in response to the childish 'the authorities are scared' pub reply.
My gut reaction to this is 'Lock 'em up', but given that Travellers are disproportionately criminal, and disproportionately likely to be in prison, does this not just prove that prison doesn't work? They do not appear to be either reformed or deterred by prison. So even if more deserve to be locked up- is there any point?
Whole other topic I know.
Whole other topic I know.
When I worked in our police ops room fly tipping was dealt with in two ways.
Ongoing when call came in ......respond if possible to catch them in the act. Not easy due to location, distance to travel before they made off.
Tell caller to inform the LA environmental health dept as ultimately they would prosecute.
Other considerations would be type of material (chemical, fire hazard as examples).
Rubbish already burning? We contact Fire service after asking if the caller already has( yes we had 999 calls about fires instead of direct to Fire service!).
If the caller had evidence such as photo/video then tell them to pass it to the LA.
Ongoing when call came in ......respond if possible to catch them in the act. Not easy due to location, distance to travel before they made off.
Tell caller to inform the LA environmental health dept as ultimately they would prosecute.
Other considerations would be type of material (chemical, fire hazard as examples).
Rubbish already burning? We contact Fire service after asking if the caller already has( yes we had 999 calls about fires instead of direct to Fire service!).
If the caller had evidence such as photo/video then tell them to pass it to the LA.
sospan said:
When I worked in our police ops room fly tipping was dealt with in two ways.
Ongoing when call came in ......respond if possible to catch them in the act. Not easy due to location, distance to travel before they made off.
Tell caller to inform the LA environmental health dept as ultimately they would prosecute.
Other considerations would be type of material (chemical, fire hazard as examples).
Rubbish already burning? We contact Fire service after asking if the caller already has( yes we had 999 calls about fires instead of direct to Fire service!).
If the caller had evidence such as photo/video then tell them to pass it to the LA.
Fly tipping is a notifiable offence and all reports made to Police should be recorded even if the LA subsequently dealOngoing when call came in ......respond if possible to catch them in the act. Not easy due to location, distance to travel before they made off.
Tell caller to inform the LA environmental health dept as ultimately they would prosecute.
Other considerations would be type of material (chemical, fire hazard as examples).
Rubbish already burning? We contact Fire service after asking if the caller already has( yes we had 999 calls about fires instead of direct to Fire service!).
If the caller had evidence such as photo/video then tell them to pass it to the LA.
Edited by Bigends on Tuesday 27th October 13:46
Slightly O/T.
Local FB group had pics of "flytippers", caught them red handed etc. But you couldn't see any rubbish. Because the car the photographer was sat in was going too fast but managed to get the person and put the pics up. Turns out it was just a broken down flat bed and it's still there now as I drove past it this morning. No rubbish to be seen either.
Local FB group had pics of "flytippers", caught them red handed etc. But you couldn't see any rubbish. Because the car the photographer was sat in was going too fast but managed to get the person and put the pics up. Turns out it was just a broken down flat bed and it's still there now as I drove past it this morning. No rubbish to be seen either.
Breadvan72 said:
Criminal courts apply strict rules of evidence. Hearsay is only admissible in limited circumstances.
Hearsay is representation of fact or opinion made by a person otherwise than in oral evidence in court, when tendered as evidence of any fact asserted. Thus a photo or a film is hearsay and calls for verification by oral evidence.
Interesting. Why doesn't that apply to speed cameras, or CCTV cameras?Hearsay is representation of fact or opinion made by a person otherwise than in oral evidence in court, when tendered as evidence of any fact asserted. Thus a photo or a film is hearsay and calls for verification by oral evidence.
julian64 said:
Interesting. Why doesn't that apply to speed cameras, or CCTV cameras?
CCTV, scameras etc will likely have to comply to a set evidential standard to be used on their own merits. Although I think even then they can still call in camera operators or specialists in certain cases. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff