Issued COVID FPN by a police officer

Issued COVID FPN by a police officer

Author
Discussion

Gooly

Original Poster:

965 posts

147 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house. The officer made several mentions of the terms 'essential travel', 'local area' and 'spirit of lockdown'. I have a reasonably good understanding of the COVID legislation and difference between legislation and guidance and I am confident that the FPN was not lawful. I plan to appeal it, however I have a few questions:

The officer said I should expect the FPN by post within 14 days. It's now been 10, so it may arrive in the next 4 days but I would like to know what to do if it doesn't. I gave my correct details and supplied my driving licence as ID which is up to date. Is there a time limit on the serving of the FPN ala speeding tickets, or is the 14 day limit simply a guideline. I am conscious of the fact that if it is lost in the post and I do not respond within 28 days of the given time limit, the case will escalate without me knowing. However, I also do not wish to chase up an FPN that may not have actually been processed or served for all I know. I gave a very reasonable and polite rebuttal to the police officer with my interpretation of the law (which she wasn't aware of in any depth) and I feel there is a slim chance she may not have actually served the FPN.

If I do receive the FPN, I wish to appeal. As far as I know, there is no official way to 'appeal' the FPN - the only way to fight it is to decline the decriminalised settlement offer of £100 and escalate the matter to magistrates court, at which point it becomes a potentially criminal matter and I could then be liable for costs and a larger fine. If I lose, what happens? What would my liability be? Would this count as part of a criminal record? More than anything, are the CPS likely to even pursue the matter?

If I do go to magistrates court, I'm assuming the matter will come down to my version of events versus the statement by the police officer in question, which at that point will have been given several weeks after the initial incident. What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness? Am I right in thinking that the CPS would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that I was outside of my house without reasonable excuse and therefore in breach of the legislation, and is the burden of proof therefore upon them and not myself?

I don't wish to go into the details as to the incident itself as I'd like to avoid any moral discussion as to what the 'spirit of lockdown' is, and would like to instead discuss the actual procedures and mechanisms behind the FPN. Hopefully this may help others as well.

Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03

mikemike39

35 posts

85 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Very interesting. I am not a lawyer but will watch this thread with interest.

My intention were something like this to happen to me is to decline to accept an FPN and instead require them to summons me to Court, should they wish.

On the face of it, I can see no reason at all why it would be legitimate to issue you with an FPN

Mike


mikemike39

35 posts

85 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Very interesting. I am not a lawyer but will watch this thread with interest.

My intention were something like this to happen to me is to decline to accept an FPN and instead require them to summons me to Court, should they wish.

On the face of it, I can see no reason at all why it would be legitimate to issue you with an FPN

Mike


Taita

7,592 posts

202 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Was the FPN for being 3 miles away (seems reasonable to do a 3 mile walk for exercise to me.....) or for the person not from your household?

Best of luck to you smilebeer

Durzel

12,232 posts

167 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
You were stopped at the time, in person, so like a driving offence where you get pulled there is no necessity to follow it up with a NIP.

You already know you’re being prosecuted because you were told you were, and they know who you are so don’t need to ask “who was walking at this location” (to use the driving metaphor)

916

26 posts

82 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house. The officer made several mentions of the terms 'essential travel', 'local area' and 'spirit of lockdown'. I have a reasonably good understanding of the COVID legislation and difference between legislation and guidance and I am confident that the FPN was not lawful. I plan to appeal it, however I have a few questions:

The officer said I should expect the FPN by post within 14 days. It's now been 10, so it may arrive in the next 4 days but I would like to know what to do if it doesn't. I gave my correct details and supplied my driving licence as ID which is up to date. Is there a time limit on the serving of the FPN ala speeding tickets, or is the 14 day limit simply a guideline. I am conscious of the fact that if it is lost in the post and I do not respond within 28 days of the given time limit, the case will escalate without me knowing. However, I also do not wish to chase up an FPN that may not have actually been processed or served for all I know. I gave a very reasonable and polite rebuttal to the police officer with my interpretation of the law (which she wasn't aware of in any depth) and I feel there is a slim chance she may not have actually served the FPN.

If I do receive the FPN, I wish to appeal. As far as I know, there is no official way to 'appeal' the FPN - the only way to fight it is to decline the decriminalised settlement offer of £100 and escalate the matter to magistrates court, at which point it becomes a potentially criminal matter and I could then be liable for costs and a larger fine. If I lose, what happens? What would my liability be? Would this count as part of a criminal record? More than anything, are the CPS likely to even pursue the matter?

If I do go to magistrates court, I'm assuming the matter will come down to my version of events versus the statement by the police officer in question, which at that point will have been given several weeks after the initial incident. What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness? Am I right in thinking that the CPS would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that I was outside of my house without reasonable excuse and therefore in breach of the legislation, and is the burden of proof therefore upon them and not myself?

I don't wish to go into the details as to the incident itself as I'd like to avoid any moral discussion as to what the 'spirit of lockdown' is, and would like to instead discuss the actual procedures and mechanisms behind the FPN. Hopefully this may help others as well.

Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
A notice of intended prosecution is governed by the Road Traffic Offenders Act for certain offences, nothing to do with Covid legislation, so it doesn’t apply.

Regarding a FPN, you don’t appeal. You just request a court hearing, a trial. A FPN is a offer that you don’t have to accept. Also a FPN doesn’t decriminalise the alledged offence, it’s just a disposal option for the Police.

The offence you may have been reported for is a criminal offence, I think it’s also a recordable offence too (powers to take fingerprints & DNA), but without more details I can’t be sure.

With regards to an actual trial it’s still the state to prove beyond all reasonable doubt your guilty. Finally if found guilty, yes you would be liable to costs etc.

Hope that helps.


Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
The officers statement, their bodyworn camera footage and a statement of facts will be examined by a process unit - they will decide whether or not to issue the FPN.

I'd certainly decline payment - I was at least three miles from home on a bike ride for exercise yesterday and wouldnt be to chuffed had I been stopped and potentially copping a ticket whilst out and about for a perfectly valid reason

Smiljan

10,772 posts

196 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house. The officer made several mentions of the terms 'essential travel', 'local area' and 'spirit of lockdown'. I have a reasonably good understanding of the COVID legislation and difference between legislation and guidance and I am confident that the FPN was not lawful. I plan to appeal it, however I have a few questions:

The officer said I should expect the FPN by post within 14 days. It's now been 10, so it may arrive in the next 4 days but I would like to know what to do if it doesn't. I gave my correct details and supplied my driving licence as ID which is up to date. Is there a time limit on the serving of the FPN ala speeding tickets, or is the 14 day limit simply a guideline. I am conscious of the fact that if it is lost in the post and I do not respond within 28 days of the given time limit, the case will escalate without me knowing. However, I also do not wish to chase up an FPN that may not have actually been processed or served for all I know. I gave a very reasonable and polite rebuttal to the police officer with my interpretation of the law (which she wasn't aware of in any depth) and I feel there is a slim chance she may not have actually served the FPN.

If I do receive the FPN, I wish to appeal. As far as I know, there is no official way to 'appeal' the FPN - the only way to fight it is to decline the decriminalised settlement offer of £100 and escalate the matter to magistrates court, at which point it becomes a potentially criminal matter and I could then be liable for costs and a larger fine. If I lose, what happens? What would my liability be? Would this count as part of a criminal record? More than anything, are the CPS likely to even pursue the matter?

If I do go to magistrates court, I'm assuming the matter will come down to my version of events versus the statement by the police officer in question, which at that point will have been given several weeks after the initial incident. What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness? Am I right in thinking that the CPS would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that I was outside of my house without reasonable excuse and therefore in breach of the legislation, and is the burden of proof therefore upon them and not myself?

I don't wish to go into the details as to the incident itself as I'd like to avoid any moral discussion as to what the 'spirit of lockdown' is, and would like to instead discuss the actual procedures and mechanisms behind the FPN. Hopefully this may help others as well.

Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
Hi Gooly, I do similar walks to you often and don't consider them to be outside of the gov guidance for the current lockdown. However reading the site I suppose those walks are.

gov website said:
Staying in your local area means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay...

I would say issuing a FPN for this though as you describe the event is not in the public interest and therefore a touch heavy handed. Luckily for me our local force are very good and are staying away generally from this and being reasonable. When you read of the continued breaches in various areas with pubs serving customers behind locked doors, phone shops opening, parties. Those kinds of offences I can get behind issuing fines for. Fining someone £100 for walking 3 miles from home - no.

Good luck, it'll be interesting to hear the outcome.

Bigends

5,412 posts

127 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
916 said:
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house. The officer made several mentions of the terms 'essential travel', 'local area' and 'spirit of lockdown'. I have a reasonably good understanding of the COVID legislation and difference between legislation and guidance and I am confident that the FPN was not lawful. I plan to appeal it, however I have a few questions:

The officer said I should expect the FPN by post within 14 days. It's now been 10, so it may arrive in the next 4 days but I would like to know what to do if it doesn't. I gave my correct details and supplied my driving licence as ID which is up to date. Is there a time limit on the serving of the FPN ala speeding tickets, or is the 14 day limit simply a guideline. I am conscious of the fact that if it is lost in the post and I do not respond within 28 days of the given time limit, the case will escalate without me knowing. However, I also do not wish to chase up an FPN that may not have actually been processed or served for all I know. I gave a very reasonable and polite rebuttal to the police officer with my interpretation of the law (which she wasn't aware of in any depth) and I feel there is a slim chance she may not have actually served the FPN.

If I do receive the FPN, I wish to appeal. As far as I know, there is no official way to 'appeal' the FPN - the only way to fight it is to decline the decriminalised settlement offer of £100 and escalate the matter to magistrates court, at which point it becomes a potentially criminal matter and I could then be liable for costs and a larger fine. If I lose, what happens? What would my liability be? Would this count as part of a criminal record? More than anything, are the CPS likely to even pursue the matter?

If I do go to magistrates court, I'm assuming the matter will come down to my version of events versus the statement by the police officer in question, which at that point will have been given several weeks after the initial incident. What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness? Am I right in thinking that the CPS would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that I was outside of my house without reasonable excuse and therefore in breach of the legislation, and is the burden of proof therefore upon them and not myself?

I don't wish to go into the details as to the incident itself as I'd like to avoid any moral discussion as to what the 'spirit of lockdown' is, and would like to instead discuss the actual procedures and mechanisms behind the FPN. Hopefully this may help others as well.

Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
A notice of intended prosecution is governed by the Road Traffic Offenders Act for certain offences, nothing to do with Covid legislation, so it doesn’t apply.

Regarding a FPN, you don’t appeal. You just request a court hearing, a trial. A FPN is a offer that you don’t have to accept. Also a FPN doesn’t decriminalise the alledged offence, it’s just a disposal option for the Police.

The offence you may have been reported for is a criminal offence, I think it’s also a recordable offence too (powers to take fingerprints & DNA), but without more details I can’t be sure.

With regards to an actual trial it’s still the state to prove beyond all reasonable doubt your guilty. Finally if found guilty, yes you would be liable to costs etc.

Hope that helps.
Its not recordable or notifiable

kiethton

13,883 posts

179 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
From what I can see you’ve broken no law at all.

There is no restriction on distance travelled for exercise, 3 miles is completely reasonable - the Derbyshire police rescinded FPN’s for the 2 girls walking at the reservoir 5 miles from home after admitting they broke no law.

100% decline the FPN as its was issued erroneously of what you say is accurate. Some (junior) PC’s have been known to take details but not put-through paperwork after realising the error of their ways.

Durzel

12,232 posts

167 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay...

GOV.UK said:
Exercising
You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:

by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household
Based on that you’ve broken no Law.

916

26 posts

82 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Bigends said:
Its not recordable or notifiable
Yep, just looked it up. My mistake.

Cold

15,207 posts

89 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Stop quoting the guidance. It means nothing. You need the legislation.

BV has a sticky: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Stigproducts

1,730 posts

270 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
If members of the public are expected to read and understand the full legislation documents then its not really going to work

OP- I wouldn't worry too much. It looks like if you contest it, your chances of winning are about 100%

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/every-single-coronavirus...

“One hundred per cent of prosecutions under the Coronavirus Act to date have been wrong."

gshughes

1,277 posts

254 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
I’m sure Breadvan has offered to represent those hit with an unreasonable COVID FPN pro bono, however I haven’t seen him post for a while so you might want to send him a PM.

aka_kerrly

12,416 posts

209 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house.


What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness?


Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
Lockdown rules said you cannot mix with people not from your household.
The evidence , you 3 miles from your house with someone NOT from your house

Pretty dam simple isn't it.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
aka_kerrly said:
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house.


What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness?


Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
Lockdown rules said you cannot mix with people not from your household.
The evidence , you 3 miles from your house with someone NOT from your house

Pretty dam simple isn't it.
Seems OK to me...

"Exercising
You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:

by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household"

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
aka_kerrly said:
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house.


What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness?


Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
Lockdown rules said you cannot mix with people not from your household.
The evidence , you 3 miles from your house with someone NOT from your house

Pretty dam simple isn't it.
It is pretty damn simple but it appears too complicated for you.

Meeting outside with 1 other person from outside your household in order to exercise (walking is exercise) is fine.

Ilovejapcrap

3,274 posts

111 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
aka_kerrly said:
Gooly said:
A police officer issued a COVID FPN to me 11 days ago whilst I was on a walk with someone not from my household 3 miles from my house.


What burden of proof or evidence would I require? Should I enlist a witness?


Edited by Gooly on Wednesday 24th February 19:03
Lockdown rules said you cannot mix with people not from your household.
The evidence , you 3 miles from your house with someone NOT from your house

Pretty dam simple isn't it.
Unless you live alone and they are your bubble

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Wednesday 24th February 2021
quotequote all
Tell ‘em to do one! On behalf of all right-thinking people.