Sold my project car...Now the buyer wants money back!
Discussion
OutInTheShed said:
The OP said some stuff was in a box.
If it was not in the box, then some misrepresentation may have occurred?
It's very easy to say 'buyer beware' and all that, but anyone on either side of a deal like this really needs to be very careful about this kind of thing.
When buying 'basket cases' the content of 'the box' ranges from 'everything you need to finish' to 'a random assortment of irrelevant parts, most of them worn out or broken'.
The sale was 'off ebay'. Was is classified ad or are we talking about naughty people who break contracts with ebay?
I wasn't there. The two people who were there need to be clear about exactly what was said and implied.
Many years ago I bought a junk bike with a 'useful box of spares'. A 'useful box' full of scrap basically.
This is a very valid point. I told him in no uncertain terms that the bits I have taken off the engine were in the box, I then went through the box naming the items in it, I then asked him if he would like to go through the box and check everything was correct. He said no that's fine. If it was not in the box, then some misrepresentation may have occurred?
It's very easy to say 'buyer beware' and all that, but anyone on either side of a deal like this really needs to be very careful about this kind of thing.
When buying 'basket cases' the content of 'the box' ranges from 'everything you need to finish' to 'a random assortment of irrelevant parts, most of them worn out or broken'.
The sale was 'off ebay'. Was is classified ad or are we talking about naughty people who break contracts with ebay?
I wasn't there. The two people who were there need to be clear about exactly what was said and implied.
Many years ago I bought a junk bike with a 'useful box of spares'. A 'useful box' full of scrap basically.
I have just gone through a list I put together of the bits in the box....which includes the bits he is saying are missing. Also just looked at prices of the bits he is wanting payment for....they do not total what he is asking for.
Tyre Smoke said:
There is absolutely zero proof of who said what to whom at the point of sale. Ultimately there is zero comeback. The buyer with grievance cannot prove what he did or didn't purchase. And since the vendor doesn't have to prove anything, it's all going nowhere. Couple that with the buyer having no money...
Correct. There is zero proof either way of the verbal discussion.There is however the advert.
If the advert makes claims which the vendor retracted or modified in the verbal discussion, he could be in an awkward position.
A lot of people are very careful describing 'projects' on ebay. Key phrases like 'only the parts shown in the pictures are included'
You see other adverts which imply 'it's all there, just needs paint and assembly'.
Does the buyer have a receipt? What does it say?
I'm sure we can all recall transactions where the purchaser (us!) has believed what he wanted to believe?
Is it possible to say whether the buyer paid a fair price for what he actually got?
Just balancing all those piling in to tell the OP what he wants to hear.
They may be right, but we only have part of one side of it.
OutInTheShed said:
Tyre Smoke said:
There is absolutely zero proof of who said what to whom at the point of sale. Ultimately there is zero comeback. The buyer with grievance cannot prove what he did or didn't purchase. And since the vendor doesn't have to prove anything, it's all going nowhere. Couple that with the buyer having no money...
Correct. There is zero proof either way of the verbal discussion.There is however the advert.
If the advert makes claims which the vendor retracted or modified in the verbal discussion, he could be in an awkward position.
A lot of people are very careful describing 'projects' on ebay. Key phrases like 'only the parts shown in the pictures are included'
You see other adverts which imply 'it's all there, just needs paint and assembly'.
Does the buyer have a receipt? What does it say?
I'm sure we can all recall transactions where the purchaser (us!) has believed what he wanted to believe?
Is it possible to say whether the buyer paid a fair price for what he actually got?
Just balancing all those piling in to tell the OP what he wants to hear.
They may be right, but we only have part of one side of it.
Was it a fair price? Well both him and I were.....I wouldn't say happy with the price, but we compromised and agreed on the price so I guess that's fair.
For clarity, here is the advert for the car. Enjoy!
"Welcome to the sale of my beloved 1987 BMW E30. Unfortunately back up for sale here due to remaining unsold from the previous listing with a bidder who declined to pay.
She is a genuine Dolphin Grey metallic MTech 1, with shadowline and body coloured bumbers, from the factory. I do have a spec list from BMW. This makes her a very rare beast, as most of the MTech 1 looking cars that are on the roads are 325i sports with MTech 1 kit added after the fact, and are not actually true MTech 1's. I have tried to factor this into the my reserve, with other factors being the overall very poor condition of my vehicle, and the fact that good E30 MTech 2's (the MTech 1 being much rarer) are now selling for over £20,000. With another genuine MTech 1 selling for £28,000 (A$50,000) on Collecting Cars (03/03/2022). So if, and when completed, she will be worth a small fortune.
First a little history; I bought the car around 7 years ago, she was running and driving beautifully. A little rough around the edges, but with a little work inc. a new custom exhaust, she scrubbed up nicely and I then used her for around 3 years. Taking her to a few shows and just generally using her while the weather was nice.
I dry stored her in between uses, kept her washed and polished. I decided that she was going to be my forever car, and with that I thought I should tastefully modify her; with the plan to take out the rear seats, half-cage, bucket seats for the front, new brakes inc. calipers, and rebuild the engine to make her into a fast road/track car. Before fully committing to all of that, I thought it would be prudent to check everything was nice and soild so that I could do all of those little things with a clear mind. That is where everything started falling apart, literally. I found horribly bodged rust repairs, rust repairs that scream "it'll get through an MOT" with no thought to actually repairing the car for the future. Once finding the rust I was going to attempt to repair her myself, finding that you can get replica parts specifically to repair the normal rust areas from a company call E30Garage Norway. Perfect for repairing all the rust without the hassle and extra cost of getting sheet metal fabricated to fit.
However, unfortunately fate is a cruel mistress, and as such my circumstances have massively changed from when I first started this journey. I still want to complete the repairs, but feel now I should also try and seek to sell her to someone who knows her value, and can repair her properly and get her back on the road sooner than I could ever possibly do it. Saying this, if she does not sell then I will continue to attempt to repair her myself. I will consider all sensible offers, if you'd like to view her yourself that can also be arranged. Please do ask any questions you may have, I will try and answer them as best I can.
I have got partial service history, but have managed to get a lot of documentation together during my ownership.
So to the main problems; The rust. The rust (as well as the f***ing horrendous bodges), as you can see from the pictures, are in most of the usual places. The front passenger and driver floors around the jacking points, with some surface rust further back from the rust hole in the passenger side, that looks like whoever bodged it just found a random red road sign and thought "YEAH! That'll do perfectly!". As well as both rear boot pockets, with more bodges. There are some more minor rust holes on the passenger side near the back of the side mouldling. There is also bubbling to the roof. It may or may not need new metal, I've been told it is most likely surface rust but will need rubbing back before it gets any worse.
I have all the original houndstooth interior (rare and desirable), the original MTech 1 factory fitted body kit, original dash (with genuine 80's cracks!), original MTech 1 steering wheel, and a lot of other original bits. The engine is still in the car, but is half way through being removed from the vehicle as the plan was to rebuild the 2.5 with a new camshaft and other bits. I do still have all the original engine parts to go with the car. As she stands, she is not driving as half way through being stripped down for those much needed repairs.
Again, I must emphasise that she is a project car. For the right person who can get her completed and knows how valuable she can become, she is perfect. I also must retain the right to cancel and remove her from sale at any time if by some miracle I manage to find the ability to repair her. You will need to collect with a trailer, she is currently SORN'd, and it is preferred for cash on collection. I retain the right to end the listing without notice, as there is an interested party already. Thank you for understanding and appriciating this. Any further questions please feel free to ask and I will do my best to get back to you ASAP around my shifts at work."
Been through the legal process when selling a project privately and won recently.
Aslong as your not a mechanic or car dealer and there for an “expert” they have no case and in my real world experience will get thrown out.
It took around a year with a preliminary hearing and then a full hearing, so annoyingly even though they won’t get anywhere they can still waste your time with it all.
Aslong as your not a mechanic or car dealer and there for an “expert” they have no case and in my real world experience will get thrown out.
It took around a year with a preliminary hearing and then a full hearing, so annoyingly even though they won’t get anywhere they can still waste your time with it all.
Edited by Xcore on Saturday 4th June 20:22
Edited by Xcore on Saturday 4th June 20:24
jsf said:
As you did not use eBay as the sale platform, but did a deal outside the terms of the eBay advert, no doubt to screw eBay out of their fees, that advert is null and void and cant be used.
That's not really true is it, because you don't use Facebook as a selling platform but merely a way of advertisingIn my opinion, private sale, project car, buyers risk, as long as seller did not mis represent
"Full interior included" but actually doesn't have any interior at all.
The text you posted says “you do still have all the original engine parts” although the engine is halfway through being taken out.
Your original post suggests ancillaries were binned.
A little confusing but ultimately the buyer saw what he was getting.
His pal who collected could have harvested bits before delivering it ?
Your original post suggests ancillaries were binned.
A little confusing but ultimately the buyer saw what he was getting.
His pal who collected could have harvested bits before delivering it ?
Vee said:
The text you posted says “you do still have all the original engine parts” although the engine is halfway through being taken out.
Your original post suggests ancillaries were binned.
A little confusing but ultimately the buyer saw what he was getting.
His pal who collected could have harvested bits before delivering it ?
Yes, I was taking the engine out to rebuild the car, and then the engine itself, I did try and explain this in not so many words. Kept the parts that were still usable and good. Unfortunately the exhaust manifold, oil cooler, and radiator weren't so did bin those. Did express this to him, but obviously didn't explicitly lay this out in the advert. Your original post suggests ancillaries were binned.
A little confusing but ultimately the buyer saw what he was getting.
His pal who collected could have harvested bits before delivering it ?
Well I've thought this as well, I've not approached this issue with him. Not replied to any message as of yet either.
Although I have looked at the cost of the parts he claims are now missing despite being there when the car left my possession, what he's wanting for some of them is extortionate, unless he's wanting aftermarket parts. But I'm not paying for those for him.
Whether I reply saying the above, that the car was sold as agreed on the day, with the parts included as seen and discussed on the day. All parts that he has said are missing were included bar the exhaust manifold, oil cooler, and radiator, but also as discussed on the day.
Don't want to give him any ammunition.
Davie_GLA said:
There needs to be some sort of auto answer on this.
Ignore and move on mate, the guy bitten off more than he can chew and now wants to give the grief back to you.
ESPECIALLY with project cars.
Please update us
Thank you everyone for your replies. I have also looked over some of the sticky posts relating to this situation, although couldn't find any project car related thread, so difficult to really relate. Ignore and move on mate, the guy bitten off more than he can chew and now wants to give the grief back to you.
ESPECIALLY with project cars.
Please update us
I won't reply, he bought the car with, as Ive explain, everything bar the exhaust, oil cooler, and radiator included which he knew. I made sure everything bar those items were included.
As you say, most likely stripped the car for parts he wants and now just wants to palm it back off on me fully, for no cost to him. Or just get some money out of me so he can fund something else.
I will update as the situation progresses!
Edited by si.thii on Saturday 4th June 22:34
CarCrazyDad said:
That's not really true is it, because you don't use Facebook as a selling platform but merely a way of advertising
In my opinion, private sale, project car, buyers risk, as long as seller did not mis represent
"Full interior included" but actually doesn't have any interior at all.
The sale was not through the eBay platform, therefor the advert is null and void and can not be used for that sale.In my opinion, private sale, project car, buyers risk, as long as seller did not mis represent
"Full interior included" but actually doesn't have any interior at all.
You could advertise a car on any platform, then change the spec and do the sale elsewhere with the new spec outside that platform. You cant use the original advert as basis of that sale anymore.
The bloke who bought the car is a chancer, but even if he wasn't, he's buggered if using a previous advert as basis for comeback.
Your conversation with him is your word vs his.
The advert text, which is on record, says the car was running beautifully in between dry storage.
The MOT issues were bodywork related.
Suggests the engine was fine, you started to strip it and kept all the old parts.
He’s obviously looking to use that and this may not be a straightforward case of private sale, no comebacks.
The advert text, which is on record, says the car was running beautifully in between dry storage.
The MOT issues were bodywork related.
Suggests the engine was fine, you started to strip it and kept all the old parts.
He’s obviously looking to use that and this may not be a straightforward case of private sale, no comebacks.
jsf said:
The sale was not through the eBay platform, therefor the advert is null and void and can not be used for that sale.
You could advertise a car on any platform, then change the spec and do the sale elsewhere with the new spec outside that platform. You cant use the original advert as basis of that sale anymore.
The bloke who bought the car is a chancer, but even if he wasn't, he's buggered if using a previous advert as basis for comeback.
Absolute nonsense. You could advertise a car on any platform, then change the spec and do the sale elsewhere with the new spec outside that platform. You cant use the original advert as basis of that sale anymore.
The bloke who bought the car is a chancer, but even if he wasn't, he's buggered if using a previous advert as basis for comeback.
Vee said:
Your conversation with him is your word vs his.
The advert text, which is on record, says the car was running beautifully in between dry storage.
The MOT issues were bodywork related.
Suggests the engine was fine, you started to strip it and kept all the old parts.
He’s obviously looking to use that and this may not be a straightforward case of private sale, no comebacks.
It also states engine is half way removed and needs trailer to collect !The advert text, which is on record, says the car was running beautifully in between dry storage.
The MOT issues were bodywork related.
Suggests the engine was fine, you started to strip it and kept all the old parts.
He’s obviously looking to use that and this may not be a straightforward case of private sale, no comebacks.
CarCrazyDad said:
Vee said:
Your conversation with him is your word vs his.
The advert text, which is on record, says the car was running beautifully in between dry storage.
The MOT issues were bodywork related.
Suggests the engine was fine, you started to strip it and kept all the old parts.
He’s obviously looking to use that and this may not be a straightforward case of private sale, no comebacks.
It also states engine is half way removed and needs trailer to collect !The advert text, which is on record, says the car was running beautifully in between dry storage.
The MOT issues were bodywork related.
Suggests the engine was fine, you started to strip it and kept all the old parts.
He’s obviously looking to use that and this may not be a straightforward case of private sale, no comebacks.
Yes, it says it was halfway removed but all removed parts were kept, and it was running fine before that, so reasonable assumption that those parts are still good.
On balance I think the buyer is a chancer but the OP has left them that opportunity from what’s been described.
Tyre Smoke said:
Say absolutely nothing then. Wait for him to make the next move. If any. Which I'd bet he doesn't.
Rightly or wrongly - who can say - the buyer has a grievance with the vendor.Given the number of arrogant and entitled a
holes in society the next move may not be continuation of a Gentlemanly negotiation with regard to the goods sold and the price paid for them, it may well be a tin of paint stripper liberally applied to another of the seller's vehicles or a couple of tyres slashed instead.It may be safer to walk a middle road and simply take everything back and refund the cash, then sell to somebody else instead
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