Water leak detection and Buildings Insurance
Discussion
Apologies for the length but I'm not sure whether I have a valid claim or whether my policy excludes it - due to there being "no damage"
I have a Smart water meter, Anglia Water told me a month ago that I was using approx 1 litre every hour over their expected use. They have just written to me again to say its now risen to 8 litres per hour and that I must have a leak. I have 30 days to fix etc etc.
So I looked at the meter in the pavement and over the course of about 2 minutes, yes the reading increased, despite everything being turned off in the house (taps etc). Turned off the main stopcock, which is in my garage at the front of the house. Meter stops increasing. Okay, so the leak must be on the property side.
The mains pipe in the garage goes into the utlility room next door where it splits, 2 ways - one goes to a water softner that feeds the hot water cylinder and cold water storage in the loft and another that heads underground to the kitchen tap that's in an island in the middle of the kitchen, before also going over to the water inlet on the fridge/freezer (for ice maker/chilled water).
Thinking that I would notice 8 litres of water dripping down walls or flooding things - I immediately suspect the cold water run under the kitchen floor.
It would seem that in this instance that the Trace and Access part of policy should be the relevant part.
My policy with Sunlife, underwritten by Covea says:
our insurer also provides cover for:
D. Tracing and accessing leaks inside the home.
The insurance provided by paragraphs 7 and 9 of section 1 also covers
the reasonable costs involved in tracing the source of the escape of
water or leakage of oil and replacement or repair of any walls, floors or
ceilings (including fixtures and fittings attached to them), inside the
home where this damage occurs in the course of these investigations.
The most the insurer will pay is £5,000
Paragraphs 7 and 9 of Section 1 say :
The buildings are insured against loss or damage caused by:
7. Escape of water.
9. Leakage of oil from any fixed oil fired heating installation.
Escape of water is defined as :
Water that has entered the boundaries of your property by the mains water supply and has, at some point on
its journey within your home, escaped from the pipe, tank or appliance that it was in and caused damage to
your home.
After making a new claim notification I got a call from Covea who said I'm not covered. They say that the section on Trace and Access is only valid if Section 1. paragraph 7 is satisfied, ie there is loss or damage caused by Escape of water.
Now I have a loss (my water bill is higher) and there must be damage to a water pipe but apparently until I find it and confirm that it has caused damage to the building I'm not covered.
Am I reading this right, it seems Trace and Access will not kick in until I've already done the Trace and Access to find the fault?
I have a Smart water meter, Anglia Water told me a month ago that I was using approx 1 litre every hour over their expected use. They have just written to me again to say its now risen to 8 litres per hour and that I must have a leak. I have 30 days to fix etc etc.
So I looked at the meter in the pavement and over the course of about 2 minutes, yes the reading increased, despite everything being turned off in the house (taps etc). Turned off the main stopcock, which is in my garage at the front of the house. Meter stops increasing. Okay, so the leak must be on the property side.
The mains pipe in the garage goes into the utlility room next door where it splits, 2 ways - one goes to a water softner that feeds the hot water cylinder and cold water storage in the loft and another that heads underground to the kitchen tap that's in an island in the middle of the kitchen, before also going over to the water inlet on the fridge/freezer (for ice maker/chilled water).
Thinking that I would notice 8 litres of water dripping down walls or flooding things - I immediately suspect the cold water run under the kitchen floor.
It would seem that in this instance that the Trace and Access part of policy should be the relevant part.
My policy with Sunlife, underwritten by Covea says:
our insurer also provides cover for:
D. Tracing and accessing leaks inside the home.
The insurance provided by paragraphs 7 and 9 of section 1 also covers
the reasonable costs involved in tracing the source of the escape of
water or leakage of oil and replacement or repair of any walls, floors or
ceilings (including fixtures and fittings attached to them), inside the
home where this damage occurs in the course of these investigations.
The most the insurer will pay is £5,000
Paragraphs 7 and 9 of Section 1 say :
The buildings are insured against loss or damage caused by:
7. Escape of water.
9. Leakage of oil from any fixed oil fired heating installation.
Escape of water is defined as :
Water that has entered the boundaries of your property by the mains water supply and has, at some point on
its journey within your home, escaped from the pipe, tank or appliance that it was in and caused damage to
your home.
After making a new claim notification I got a call from Covea who said I'm not covered. They say that the section on Trace and Access is only valid if Section 1. paragraph 7 is satisfied, ie there is loss or damage caused by Escape of water.
Now I have a loss (my water bill is higher) and there must be damage to a water pipe but apparently until I find it and confirm that it has caused damage to the building I'm not covered.
Am I reading this right, it seems Trace and Access will not kick in until I've already done the Trace and Access to find the fault?
Edited by AnotherGuy on Thursday 26th January 18:57
It's pretty normal for insurance not to cover defects in manufacture or construction, only consequential damage from that.
I would check carefully for any signs of damage due to the floor being wet.
I wouldn't expect that sort of leak to have done damage to foundations? How long has it been going on?
How easy is it to install a new pipe bypassing the leak?
TBH I'm one of those people who takes a high excess on insurance, because I'd rather crack on and fix things than argue about what's covered.
how old is the house by the way? Is it likely to be original plumbing?
I would check carefully for any signs of damage due to the floor being wet.
I wouldn't expect that sort of leak to have done damage to foundations? How long has it been going on?
How easy is it to install a new pipe bypassing the leak?
TBH I'm one of those people who takes a high excess on insurance, because I'd rather crack on and fix things than argue about what's covered.
how old is the house by the way? Is it likely to be original plumbing?
I have had this twice in the last 30 years, at different houses.
As far as I am aware, under the policies I had on those two houses I was covered for consequential damage to the house from any leak.
But if I wanted cover for the cost of finding any leak, I had to have the kind of additional household plumbing policy that Domestic and General provide, and it had to be one which covered mains pipe leaks on my property. Your responsibility for water mains repair costs starts your side of the water meter.
A decent plumber ought to be able to work out where the issue is - the first of my two leaks was found and the problem bypassed in less than 30 minutes.
My second leak (different property) was somewhere in the 420 metres of underground pipe between my house and the water meter, which crosses three fields and a small wood. It took me 13 months to find it, as I had to wait until there were no crops in the fields, and for this to coincide with a prolonged dry spell, before it became obvious.
Strangely, this happened in February last year, when I walked the anticipated route of the pipe for about the 20th time when it hadn't rained for the whole month, and spotted a damp patch in the field margin. My local farmer called in his mate with a mini-digger and dug a hole a metre deep, and the whole thing was fixed on the day I dscovered it. Water mains pipes are in 50 metre sections, so I had 8 joins I potentially had to find and dig up if I couldn't spot signs of the leak.
In both cases the water boards were really helpful and totally reasonable, and credited the excess water charges. I too got warned that I had to fix it quickly, but when I explained the problem re crops to them, they said that that warning was just so that people got on with finding the problem, rather than take comfort from the water board not charging for the excess water consumption and do sweet FA about it.
From what your insurer is saying, they will only cover the cost of fixing a problem that is already causing damage to your property, like for example if the the stop cock was in your kitchen and had failed while you were on holiday and the house was flooded. So you need to set about finding the leak, and to tell Anglian Water what you are doing to find it if you need more time.
As far as I am aware, under the policies I had on those two houses I was covered for consequential damage to the house from any leak.
But if I wanted cover for the cost of finding any leak, I had to have the kind of additional household plumbing policy that Domestic and General provide, and it had to be one which covered mains pipe leaks on my property. Your responsibility for water mains repair costs starts your side of the water meter.
A decent plumber ought to be able to work out where the issue is - the first of my two leaks was found and the problem bypassed in less than 30 minutes.
My second leak (different property) was somewhere in the 420 metres of underground pipe between my house and the water meter, which crosses three fields and a small wood. It took me 13 months to find it, as I had to wait until there were no crops in the fields, and for this to coincide with a prolonged dry spell, before it became obvious.
Strangely, this happened in February last year, when I walked the anticipated route of the pipe for about the 20th time when it hadn't rained for the whole month, and spotted a damp patch in the field margin. My local farmer called in his mate with a mini-digger and dug a hole a metre deep, and the whole thing was fixed on the day I dscovered it. Water mains pipes are in 50 metre sections, so I had 8 joins I potentially had to find and dig up if I couldn't spot signs of the leak.
In both cases the water boards were really helpful and totally reasonable, and credited the excess water charges. I too got warned that I had to fix it quickly, but when I explained the problem re crops to them, they said that that warning was just so that people got on with finding the problem, rather than take comfort from the water board not charging for the excess water consumption and do sweet FA about it.
From what your insurer is saying, they will only cover the cost of fixing a problem that is already causing damage to your property, like for example if the the stop cock was in your kitchen and had failed while you were on holiday and the house was flooded. So you need to set about finding the leak, and to tell Anglian Water what you are doing to find it if you need more time.
Edited by QBee on Friday 27th January 05:03
I've been through this after having a smart water meter fitted. recieved an e mail telling me i was using 5 litres a hour in the smalll hours .
i confirmed this by turning off the stop cock over night. for a week and checking the app. Advised that it was my problem after two visits from water board.
Contacted insurance and yes I was covered for supply leaks and they will send out an investgation team to check first.
A test meter was fitted and no leak was found. The smart meter was refitted and a e mail received stating no leak.
Checking the app the leak has now increased to19 litres an hour. Water board not interested.
Found CEO e mail and made a direct complaint. He was very good and arranged for the path to be dug up.
They found the leak. It was due to the twisting action of fitting the meter and disturbing the joint form the meter tail to my supply pipe. Walking about my estate there are a number of house with blue paint around the meter box so it seems like a common problem.
Good luck
Anglia Water as well.
i confirmed this by turning off the stop cock over night. for a week and checking the app. Advised that it was my problem after two visits from water board.
Contacted insurance and yes I was covered for supply leaks and they will send out an investgation team to check first.
A test meter was fitted and no leak was found. The smart meter was refitted and a e mail received stating no leak.
Checking the app the leak has now increased to19 litres an hour. Water board not interested.
Found CEO e mail and made a direct complaint. He was very good and arranged for the path to be dug up.
They found the leak. It was due to the twisting action of fitting the meter and disturbing the joint form the meter tail to my supply pipe. Walking about my estate there are a number of house with blue paint around the meter box so it seems like a common problem.
Good luck
Anglia Water as well.
Edited by Alan H on Friday 27th January 07:49
Used to do this for a job. 9 times out of 10 is was a toilet cistern overflowing, even just a drip adds up.
Most modern cisterns have the overflow down the pan, so you don't really notice it.
Put a piece of toilet paper on the back of the pan, if water is trickling down it will get wet.
Other than that, the most likely failure areas are at the joins, you can have a listen on the pipe with a strike through screwdriver pressed up against your ear, if it's hissing there will be a leak. We used to use a stethoscope on a stick to pinpoint a leak under the floor.
5 / 10 years ago, when I worked for the water board, we used to go out to properties like this and would help find the problem, even though the I don't think we were obliged to, not sure if their policies have changed.
I would be inclined to call the water board and have a technician come out to confirm the leak, play a bit dumb otherwise they will just say it's your problem. Hopefully you will get a good one, make them a cup of tea and ask if they can help find it.
Most modern cisterns have the overflow down the pan, so you don't really notice it.
Put a piece of toilet paper on the back of the pan, if water is trickling down it will get wet.
Other than that, the most likely failure areas are at the joins, you can have a listen on the pipe with a strike through screwdriver pressed up against your ear, if it's hissing there will be a leak. We used to use a stethoscope on a stick to pinpoint a leak under the floor.
5 / 10 years ago, when I worked for the water board, we used to go out to properties like this and would help find the problem, even though the I don't think we were obliged to, not sure if their policies have changed.
I would be inclined to call the water board and have a technician come out to confirm the leak, play a bit dumb otherwise they will just say it's your problem. Hopefully you will get a good one, make them a cup of tea and ask if they can help find it.
I used to deal with household insurance claims and would occasionally have customers in the same situation as yourself, where there was clearly a leak, but currently no visible damage.
Under your policy you are covered for damage cause by an Escape of Water with the Trace and Access cover acting as additional cover for accessing a leak. At present your insurer and yourself have no indication that there is any being damage caused by the Escape of Water and therefore the trigger for the Escape of Water section (physical loss or damage) and the related Trace and Access has not been met.
In this instance, I would act as if you are not insured and take reasonable steps to protect your property from damage. Get somebody out and have the leak traced in the first instance. If you are concerned about potential policy cover and the potential damage caused in find the leak, then a leak detection specialist might be the best bet. (Not a recommendation but, I have seen a few videos from a company called ADI in particular this gentleman and it is amazing how easily specialists can find leaks using various methods including tracer gases and a sniffer)
If there is minimal damage caused in finding the leak then great, it would have likely been below your policy excess anyway as a lot of policies have excesses for Escape of Water that are much higher than your normal excess.
The chances are that if you have 8 litres of water escaping somewhere in the house then it is causing some currently unseen damage. My expectation is based on experience, is that no mater how small the damage being caused by the leak is, that it should meet the trigger for an Escape of Water claim and the Trace and Access cover. If there is damage caused by the water leak and there is enough damage caused by the Trace and Access to make it worthwhile claiming, take any photos you can, have the leak specialist put in writing the cause etc and costs involved in tracing the leak. The before you have the reinstatement work done, get back in contact with your insurer. They will then guide your through the next steps. It might be they are happy for you to get quotes or they may want to appoint somebody.
In terms of things like tiled walls and or floors, you will need to see if your policy has something called 'matching of items' or 'matching of sets'. This will usually limit your insurers responsibility to the damaged tiled wall or floor only. In other words, if your whole bathroom is tiled, but only one wall is damaged to access the leak, then cover only extends to the damage wall only. The FOS position was (8 years ago at least) that insurers should pay 50% of undamaged matching walls or floor, but not all insurers were sticking to that unless pushed to a complaint.
Under your policy you are covered for damage cause by an Escape of Water with the Trace and Access cover acting as additional cover for accessing a leak. At present your insurer and yourself have no indication that there is any being damage caused by the Escape of Water and therefore the trigger for the Escape of Water section (physical loss or damage) and the related Trace and Access has not been met.
In this instance, I would act as if you are not insured and take reasonable steps to protect your property from damage. Get somebody out and have the leak traced in the first instance. If you are concerned about potential policy cover and the potential damage caused in find the leak, then a leak detection specialist might be the best bet. (Not a recommendation but, I have seen a few videos from a company called ADI in particular this gentleman and it is amazing how easily specialists can find leaks using various methods including tracer gases and a sniffer)
If there is minimal damage caused in finding the leak then great, it would have likely been below your policy excess anyway as a lot of policies have excesses for Escape of Water that are much higher than your normal excess.
The chances are that if you have 8 litres of water escaping somewhere in the house then it is causing some currently unseen damage. My expectation is based on experience, is that no mater how small the damage being caused by the leak is, that it should meet the trigger for an Escape of Water claim and the Trace and Access cover. If there is damage caused by the water leak and there is enough damage caused by the Trace and Access to make it worthwhile claiming, take any photos you can, have the leak specialist put in writing the cause etc and costs involved in tracing the leak. The before you have the reinstatement work done, get back in contact with your insurer. They will then guide your through the next steps. It might be they are happy for you to get quotes or they may want to appoint somebody.
In terms of things like tiled walls and or floors, you will need to see if your policy has something called 'matching of items' or 'matching of sets'. This will usually limit your insurers responsibility to the damaged tiled wall or floor only. In other words, if your whole bathroom is tiled, but only one wall is damaged to access the leak, then cover only extends to the damage wall only. The FOS position was (8 years ago at least) that insurers should pay 50% of undamaged matching walls or floor, but not all insurers were sticking to that unless pushed to a complaint.
Edited by Snails on Friday 27th January 09:06
When I had my leak in the 420 metres of mains pipe, Severn Trent sent a proper man out, 30 years experience and helpful. He offered to lend me kit to stick down the pipe from joint to joint , with a detector to tell where the pipe was going.
When we found the leak a year later, as described above, my friendly farmer was unsure where to get the pipe and what fittings, so I rang the expert and he said he was only 50 miles away, so would be with me within 2 hours. He actually fished a fitting and a length of pipe out of his pickup and fixed it or me. I thanked him with a token of my appreciation.
When we found the leak a year later, as described above, my friendly farmer was unsure where to get the pipe and what fittings, so I rang the expert and he said he was only 50 miles away, so would be with me within 2 hours. He actually fished a fitting and a length of pipe out of his pickup and fixed it or me. I thanked him with a token of my appreciation.
My sincere thanks for the comments - especially Snails.
I had my uncle a (a retired Gas Safe engineer) around this morning. I have a cupboard under the stairs which smelt a bit musty - Pulled back the carpert and a couple of floor boards :
Some pictures to help:
Kitchen with island - containing sink and dishwasher - cupboard under stairs in top right of picture
Cupboard with floor boards lifted :
Looking in the hole :
The rusty pipe in there is the old, disused gas main.
So the water appears to be pooling in the bottom right of the cupboard. No evidence of any leaking pipes in this area - my house is on a hill that slopes downhill from left to right on my pictures. So this just looks like water accumulating from under my slab.
Next stop would appear to be a Trace and Access company.
Dismantling that kitchen and floor is going to be painful / expensive - especially as the slab has a wet underfloor heating system installed
Central heating already confirmed as not leaking (pressure all good)
As per Snail's previous reply - I am assuming that this is still my responsibility at the moment.
I had my uncle a (a retired Gas Safe engineer) around this morning. I have a cupboard under the stairs which smelt a bit musty - Pulled back the carpert and a couple of floor boards :
Some pictures to help:
Kitchen with island - containing sink and dishwasher - cupboard under stairs in top right of picture
Cupboard with floor boards lifted :
Looking in the hole :
The rusty pipe in there is the old, disused gas main.
So the water appears to be pooling in the bottom right of the cupboard. No evidence of any leaking pipes in this area - my house is on a hill that slopes downhill from left to right on my pictures. So this just looks like water accumulating from under my slab.
Next stop would appear to be a Trace and Access company.
Dismantling that kitchen and floor is going to be painful / expensive - especially as the slab has a wet underfloor heating system installed
Central heating already confirmed as not leaking (pressure all good)As per Snail's previous reply - I am assuming that this is still my responsibility at the moment.
ADI Leak Detection now booked to come out on Monday for Track and Access. £600 for the Trace, £200 for excavation work once they locate it and £50 for the repair itself. So a pretty fixed(ish) cost of £850+VAT.
They'll provide a report for insurance, but agree that at the moment there looks to be no physical damage to claim for.
They'll provide a report for insurance, but agree that at the moment there looks to be no physical damage to claim for.
Rough101 said:
I’d get a cheap horoscope and keep looking.
I assume you’ve turned off the water in the house and checked the external meter to see if it stops, thus meaning the leak is in the pipe from meter to stopcock, and not after the stopcock itself ?
How would knowing all the Zodiac signs help I assume you’ve turned off the water in the house and checked the external meter to see if it stops, thus meaning the leak is in the pipe from meter to stopcock, and not after the stopcock itself ?
Yes I've turned of the incoming main and the meter stops, so its definitely on property. Also the incoming main is at the front of the house and my kitchen is at the back. But thank you for the suggestion.
Fingers crossed that ADI find and fix the problem.
Alan H said:
I've been through this after having a smart water meter fitted.....
Anglia Water as well.
Me too. Away for a weekend and we get an email warning of excessive usage. Turns out I hadn't turned off the outside tap fully after washing the car. It was a quick drip only.Anglia Water as well.
Fast forward a year, another weekend away - opened the front door to water in the hall. Uses around 35 cubic metres of water in two days. And no email from Anglia. The toilet cistern had broken. Cheap plastic thing. Luckily most of the 35 had gone down the pan.
Laminate bathroom floor swelled up to huge proportions but has since gone back to normal. The hall ceiling is watermarked and needs a coat of paint. The smoke detector in the hall had to be replaced. The oak flooring in the hall seems to have dried with little damage - one or two small cracks. No other damage so got off lightly, apart from the water bill - and the drainage bill!
Neighbour had called us to say the alarm was going off at 5 am, but house looked OK. We assumed errant spiders, but it was the smoke detector getting filled with water!
We had this last year - warning letter through after they read the dumb meter.
The water meter sits outside of my property boundary so once the tap was off, I had to pay for a company to leak detect with gas - cost about £150ish IIRC. They located it on the property boundary on the meter side, so I went back to the water lot, who then sent some guys out. they dug up some heath robinson collection of pipework joints where the original builders had completely messed things around and located the leak there, but outside of my boundary - which meant I didn't have the big bill or the cost of the repair, AND they refunded my leak detection bill too.
Thank goodness too because it was a good couple of grand on the bill!
The water meter sits outside of my property boundary so once the tap was off, I had to pay for a company to leak detect with gas - cost about £150ish IIRC. They located it on the property boundary on the meter side, so I went back to the water lot, who then sent some guys out. they dug up some heath robinson collection of pipework joints where the original builders had completely messed things around and located the leak there, but outside of my boundary - which meant I didn't have the big bill or the cost of the repair, AND they refunded my leak detection bill too.
Thank goodness too because it was a good couple of grand on the bill!
AlwynMike said:
Fast forward a year, another weekend away - opened the front door to water in the hall. Uses around 35 cubic metres of water in two days. And no email from Anglia. The toilet cistern had broken. Cheap plastic thing. Luckily most of the 35 had gone down the pan.
Surely, with a correct design, the fill rate should never exceed the draining/overflow rate?Cyberprog said:
We had this last year - warning letter through after they read the dumb meter.
The water meter sits outside of my property boundary so once the tap was off, I had to pay for a company to leak detect with gas - cost about £150ish IIRC. They located it on the property boundary on the meter side, so I went back to the water lot, who then sent some guys out. they dug up some heath robinson collection of pipework joints where the original builders had completely messed things around and located the leak there, but outside of my boundary - which meant I didn't have the big bill or the cost of the repair, AND they refunded my leak detection bill too.
Thank goodness too because it was a good couple of grand on the bill!
Very interested to know if it was between the meter and your house (but outside your fence/hedge) or between the reservoir and the meter?The water meter sits outside of my property boundary so once the tap was off, I had to pay for a company to leak detect with gas - cost about £150ish IIRC. They located it on the property boundary on the meter side, so I went back to the water lot, who then sent some guys out. they dug up some heath robinson collection of pipework joints where the original builders had completely messed things around and located the leak there, but outside of my boundary - which meant I didn't have the big bill or the cost of the repair, AND they refunded my leak detection bill too.
Thank goodness too because it was a good couple of grand on the bill!
I had a period of a year of anxious wife syndrome, while we tried to work out where the leak was. It was definitely outside our property, because turning off a stop cock 40 metres outside our boundary stopped our water, but the meter 420 metres away kept turning.
Our situation is unusual - our house is a converted windmill, which was done about 40 years ago. The farmer owned the derelict windmill and when he asked Severn Trent for a cost to connect to the mains, which ended 420 metres away, he declined to remortgage and got his JCB out instead, which is why our mains supply runs through a wood and across three fields, with the meter 420 metres from the house.
If it happens again I will be in negotiation with 7 Trent, as you don't get a rebate second time.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff