Why is car crime unpunished/ unpoliced?

[Yellowfez]

https://youtu.be/q5D7xCaUq94

A really interesting story, if you haven’t already heard it, about the stolen yellow Lambo

[P0PC0RN]

I work on a Police traffic unit - we get hammered for vehicle crime and vehicle enabled crime every shift.

My unit has been cut by over 80% since 2010 - Ksi crashes in our area are rising + pursuits, which used to be a rarity, are a daily occurance. The work we do barely scratches the surface of what's going on.

The proactive teams, intercept teams, priority/specialist crime teams have all been disbanded due to cuts - if we (RPU) weren't a national requirement we would have been for the chop as well because these teams are expensive to run and maintain. When we do lock people up its a nightmare trying to find someone to deal in custody, they usually are dealt with by a probationer and then either Nfa'd because they don't have the time/ experience to really push the evidence or the CPS for a positive decision and if by some miracle they get charged the courts let us/ everyone down with crap sentencing.

So in answer to the original question - the cops on the ground want to Police car crime - the management + Government don't want it policed effectively.

Car chases are dangerous (but the biggest buzz you can get)

Stopping the crims identifies further offences which have to be recorded thus increasing recorded crime in a area - politically this is bad

Car crime, whilst broad, typically involves the theft or damage of an insured thing/car so the victim gets compensated (in the eyes of the powers that be) and 'no one got hurt so it's not a issue' (apparently)

Policing as a whole is screwed - every night is a Saturday night - we can't covered the stabbings/serious sex offences/disorder. Usually no one is hurt by car criminals if they are left alone so when we have to choose between the threat to life jobs or the theft of another Golf R you can guess what wins....

And don't get me started on the picking up of the pieces for every other agency...

As everyone is now realising - Cuts have consequences

[jan8p]

P0PC0RN said:

I work on a Police traffic unit - we get hammered for vehicle crime and vehicle enabled crime every shift.

My unit has been cut by over 80% since 2010 - Ksi crashes in our area are rising + pursuits, which used to be a rarity, are a daily occurance. The work we do barely scratches the surface of what's going on.

The proactive teams, intercept teams, priority/specialist crime teams have all been disbanded due to cuts - if we (RPU) weren't a national requirement we would have been for the chop as well because these teams are expensive to run and maintain. When we do lock people up its a nightmare trying to find someone to deal in custody, they usually are dealt with by a probationer and then either Nfa'd because they don't have the time/ experience to really push the evidence or the CPS for a positive decision and if by some miracle they get charged the courts let us/ everyone down with crap sentencing.

So in answer to the original question - the cops on the ground want to Police car crime - the management + Government don't want it policed effectively.

Car chases are dangerous (but the biggest buzz you can get)

Stopping the crims identifies further offences which have to be recorded thus increasing recorded crime in a area - politically this is bad

Car crime, whilst broad, typically involves the theft or damage of an insured thing/car so the victim gets compensated (in the eyes of the powers that be) and 'no one got hurt so it's not a issue' (apparently)

Policing as a whole is screwed - every night is a Saturday night - we can't covered the stabbings/serious sex offences/disorder. Usually no one is hurt by car criminals if they are left alone so when we have to choose between the threat to life jobs or the theft of another Golf R you can guess what wins....

And don't get me started on the picking up of the pieces for every other agency...

As everyone is now realising - Cuts have consequences

Indeed. And the opinion that CCTV "is useless" because of masks etc, isn't true. The truth is resource. As we can all see on programmes like 24 hour in Police Custody etc, CCTV is extremely useful regardless and provides avenues of investigation. The issue is the prioritisation of the limited resource you have, so low priority crimes (car theft) aren't investigated, high priority (murder, etc) is, and CCTV can be used whether the suspects wore masks or not.

[Thats What She Said]

P0PC0RN said:

I work on a Police traffic unit - we get hammered for vehicle crime and vehicle enabled crime every shift.

My unit has been cut by over 80% since 2010 - Ksi crashes in our area are rising + pursuits, which used to be a rarity, are a daily occurance. The work we do barely scratches the surface of what's going on.

The proactive teams, intercept teams, priority/specialist crime teams have all been disbanded due to cuts - if we (RPU) weren't a national requirement we would have been for the chop as well because these teams are expensive to run and maintain. When we do lock people up its a nightmare trying to find someone to deal in custody, they usually are dealt with by a probationer and then either Nfa'd because they don't have the time/ experience to really push the evidence or the CPS for a positive decision and if by some miracle they get charged the courts let us/ everyone down with crap sentencing.

So in answer to the original question - the cops on the ground want to Police car crime - the management + Government don't want it policed effectively.

Car chases are dangerous (but the biggest buzz you can get)

Stopping the crims identifies further offences which have to be recorded thus increasing recorded crime in a area - politically this is bad

Car crime, whilst broad, typically involves the theft or damage of an insured thing/car so the victim gets compensated (in the eyes of the powers that be) and 'no one got hurt so it's not a issue' (apparently)

Policing as a whole is screwed - every night is a Saturday night - we can't covered the stabbings/serious sex offences/disorder. Usually no one is hurt by car criminals if they are left alone so when we have to choose between the threat to life jobs or the theft of another Golf R you can guess what wins....

And don't get me started on the picking up of the pieces for every other agency...

As everyone is now realising - Cuts have consequences

Thanks for posting this. Even if it does make for depressing reading.

[P0PC0RN]

Thats What She Said said:

Thanks for posting this. Even if it does make for depressing reading.

No worries - sorry its all abit depressing

Unfortunately I think it's going to get worse before it gets better - alot of experience has walked out of the door through retirement and, recently, through throwing the towel in.

Good experienced street cops (Pc's + Sgt's) are hard to come by - they are that grizzled Sgt Major holding the team together under fire when all the rank have fled or tried something stupid and are now out in no mans land hanging on the wire.

What experience is left is usually gainfully employed on specialist units and rarely gets to bless the local cops with their presense/ knowledge.

There are sgts in your home force - maybe looking after a city - who are in their early 20s with perhaps 3 years of experience as a Cop. The response teams are made up of kids - the average age would scare you all - most of them are earning a free degree. Once they have that do we think they are going to stay on as cops on £1500 a month.... Nope - I'm considering looking for a new job (after 14+ years) and earn alot more than that....

Until the Government gives their heads a shake the current Policing 'model'/ clusterf**k will remain. To reverse the cuts will cost billions and the acceptance/ ownership of this disaster - we all know that's not going to happen.

[Bigends]

Its difficult to prevent car crime i.e. theft if/from or damage to.
A lot of work used to be carried out in order to trace offenders, sadly no longer the case due to resourcing.
9/10 vehicle crime scenes would be attended initially by officers and later by CSI staff.
This generated forensic hits from fingerprints / DNA obtained from scenes which would then be tasked out to volume crime units to deal with suspects.
In relation to stolen vehicles a lot of work was carried out in relation to hits on the ANPR systems throughout the country - dont know if this still occurs.
Theres plenty of work that can carried out on this class of crime with the will and more importantly the resources.

[CouncilFerrari]

P0PC0RN said:

I work on a Police traffic unit - we get hammered for vehicle crime and vehicle enabled crime every shift.

My unit has been cut by over 80% since 2010 - Ksi crashes in our area are rising + pursuits, which used to be a rarity, are a daily occurance. The work we do barely scratches the surface of what's going on.

The proactive teams, intercept teams, priority/specialist crime teams have all been disbanded due to cuts - if we (RPU) weren't a national requirement we would have been for the chop as well because these teams are expensive to run and maintain. When we do lock people up its a nightmare trying to find someone to deal in custody, they usually are dealt with by a probationer and then either Nfa'd because they don't have the time/ experience to really push the evidence or the CPS for a positive decision and if by some miracle they get charged the courts let us/ everyone down with crap sentencing.

So in answer to the original question - the cops on the ground want to Police car crime - the management + Government don't want it policed effectively.

Car chases are dangerous (but the biggest buzz you can get)

Stopping the crims identifies further offences which have to be recorded thus increasing recorded crime in a area - politically this is bad

Car crime, whilst broad, typically involves the theft or damage of an insured thing/car so the victim gets compensated (in the eyes of the powers that be) and 'no one got hurt so it's not a issue' (apparently)

Policing as a whole is screwed - every night is a Saturday night - we can't covered the stabbings/serious sex offences/disorder. Usually no one is hurt by car criminals if they are left alone so when we have to choose between the threat to life jobs or the theft of another Golf R you can guess what wins....

And don't get me started on the picking up of the pieces for every other agency...

As everyone is now realising - Cuts have consequences

That is mega depressing reading, but inevitable given the budget and manning constraints.

Slightly O/T but as a copper with some experience, may I ask (in your opinion) what are the best deterrents to car theft? Or is it a case of, if they want it they'll figure out how to take it.

[havoc]

I'll echo the comments about P0pcorn's response making depressing but unsurprising reading. The government have worked out how to manipulate statistics and headlines, and (until catastrophic events such as the one that's just hit the Met) that's how we are now led...

CouncilFerrari said:

Or is it a case of, if they want it they'll figure out how to take it.

I don't want to prejudge P0pcorn's response, but I suspect it's this.

Against the casual thieves, if you make your car harder work than the car down the road, they'll go down the road.

Against those more determined (or if you've something rather special) if they can't get your car without the keys, they'll break in and demand the keys.

If it's rare/special/has emotional value and you definitely want it back, invest in a tracker or one of those systems that can cut the power remotely. Ghosts are apparently great until the really determined ones break (back) into your house demanding the code.


Of course, not buying a Range Rover / Ford / Golf-R appears to rather reduce your risk, too!

[Hugo Stiglitz]

P0PC0RN said:

No worries - sorry its all abit depressing

Unfortunately I think it's going to get worse before it gets better - alot of experience has walked out of the door through retirement and, recently, through throwing the towel in.

Good experienced street cops (Pc's + Sgt's) are hard to come by - they are that grizzled Sgt Major holding the team together under fire when all the rank have fled or tried something stupid and are now out in no mans land hanging on the wire.

What experience is left is usually gainfully employed on specialist units and rarely gets to bless the local cops with their presense/ knowledge.

There are sgts in your home force - maybe looking after a city - who are in their early 20s with perhaps 3 years of experience as a Cop. The response teams are made up of kids - the average age would scare you all - most of them are earning a free degree. Once they have that do we think they are going to stay on as cops on £1500 a month.... Nope - I'm considering looking for a new job (after 14+ years) and earn alot more than that....

Until the Government gives their heads a shake the current Policing 'model'/ clusterf**k will remain. To reverse the cuts will cost billions and the acceptance/ ownership of this disaster - we all know that's not going to happen.

I disagree with this.

Many cops in their early 20s who are very driven and proactive.

They are entirely different to those who joined 20-30yrs ago who spent the first 10yrs on foot patrol in their career. Nowadays less than a year in and one can be at multiple high risk incidents a shift due to being given keys or driven there.

This is a sink or swim pressure cooker. It builds experience very quickly.

[CouncilFerrari]

havoc said:

I'll echo the comments about P0pcorn's response making depressing but unsurprising reading. The government have worked out how to manipulate statistics and headlines, and (until catastrophic events such as the one that's just hit the Met) that's how we are now led...

CouncilFerrari said:

Or is it a case of, if they want it they'll figure out how to take it.

I don't want to prejudge P0pcorn's response, but I suspect it's this.

Against the casual thieves, if you make your car harder work than the car down the road, they'll go down the road.

Against those more determined (or if you've something rather special) if they can't get your car without the keys, they'll break in and demand the keys.

If it's rare/special/has emotional value and you definitely want it back, invest in a tracker or one of those systems that can cut the power remotely. Ghosts are apparently great until the really determined ones break (back) into your house demanding the code.


Of course, not buying a Range Rover / Ford / Golf-R appears to rather reduce your risk, too!

Sadly, I would guess that you're right. I was just wondering if there were any specific 'red flags' that car thieves look for - it's hope on my part more than anything.

My daily cars are fairly mundane (a Swift Sport and a VW van) but the project car that's nearly complete is relatively rare and valuable to me. I read on facebook the stories of people having their modern classics nicked and it saddens me, especially when you can see the work that someone has put into one. A tracker is a good shout.

Happily I don't have a Range Rover, Golf R or an Audi S/RS model nor do I live in a car crime hotspot. But, as mentioned above it seems that modern classics are being taken with increasing frequency.

[Roger Irrelevant]

bucksmanuk said:

Roger Irrelevant said:

Indeed, this is probably the most salient post of the thread and it pretty much disappeared without trace. For whatever reason, the people of the UK have voted for cuts to public services - including the police and courts - for over a decade. And they then moan when there's more left-behind desperate scumbags knocking about and insufficient resources to deal with car crime. But try pointing this out to them and you'll be told that it's not that people are getting what they voted for, it's the fault of all the black disabled lesbian outreach workers that the police are now employing, or 'The Left', or immigrants, or the police themselves for not being telepathic and able to predict exactly where a crime will occur. And so it will continue.

I think most people would like to see more police and be happy to pay for them with increased taxes. However, life just isn’t that simple.
If the vast majority of the money is spent directly on increased police effort to catch criminals, then all would be well. BUT, if people see the money being misappropriated into other areas, and that’s a judgment call all on its own, then the willing supply of extra money will be reduced. People vote for other things…

For comparison purposes, what is the cost of policing in other countries?
Are we genuinely getting value for money, or are we paying well over the odds?

Does anyone know?

This sort of illustrates the problem though. You rightly ask the question as to whether we are getting value for money from the taxes that pay for policing, which suggests you don't know whether we do or not (I don't either), but then you've also pre-empted the question by implying that we don't get value for money and that any extra will be wasted. When do people really see 'money being misappropriated into other areas'? I suspect that sort of belief is largely based on a few stories that gain traction on social media, some of which might get picked up by the Daily Mail, but that really aren't significant in the grand scheme of things. As opposed to a forensic analysis of the allocation of police budgets.

You've got several serving officers on here with first-hand experience of the problem saying that funding has been cut to the bone and they're running threadbare units with inexperienced personnel. You've got reliable statistics saying that the number of serving officers is a fair bit lower than it was ten/fifteen years ago but the UK population is higher. But try suggesting that these two things might in some way be connected to an increase in car crime and you get told that the solution can't possibly be more money but is instead less wokery. Would that it were so simple.

[P0PC0RN]

CouncilFerrari said:

That is mega depressing reading, but inevitable given the budget and manning constraints.

Slightly O/T but as a copper with some experience, may I ask (in your opinion) what are the best deterrents to car theft? Or is it a case of, if they want it they'll figure out how to take it.

I think it depends on where you live, the areas surrounding where you live and what's on your driveway. If you answer those you will get a (generalised) understanding of who might be looking at your vehicle (if at all) and why

That said - If someone wants something enough they will get it

By parking something expensive/ desirable to criminals on your driveway your advertising that you have shiny expensive things or at the very least where the keys can be found. If I owned a Golf R I would park it round the corner from my home for instance.

Keyless theft is harder to prevent but quality Faraday pouches and having the keys kept as far from the vehicle as possible are only going to help. Some seem to be easier/more popular than others to target (Fords, JLR, BMW, Merc, Abarth).

Someone local too me likes his fast estates and recieved the usual 'attention' - when he had his driveway relaid he had metal rise and fall bollards installed. All the hedging cut back and enough security lights for his RS4 to be seen from Mars put in. He's had no issues since....

CCTV, security lighting*, big dog, signs about big dog on back gate, lock the back gate, no 'tools' left in garden for them to use to screw your house, don't own anything nice, allow the front of your property to be seen from the road so cut hedges back etc - the standard stuff really.

[Snoozy]

Leading on from Popcorn’s post, my other half is still in the job and went to a Domestic assault yesterday involving a 90 yrs old with dementia who had assaulted his 87 yrs old wife. She arrived there at 2pm and was relieved just after 7pm( supposed to finish at 5 but is a regular occurrence now) by late turn officers. They couldn’t arrest him because custody wouldn’t accept him due to his condition.

Called Social services at around 3pm to advise them of the situation. Social services asked whether she could persuade said male out of the house so he could be detained using Mental Health act. They were told that this was not going to happen.

SS called 111 to get the on call community mental health practitioner to come out but were told they couldn’t do that as they weren’t at the scene. Guess who had to make the call? 111 operator stated that the practitioner would get there sometime after 9pm

She’ll probably find out what happened when she goes back to work tonight when it’s her and one other officer covering three towns between 5pm and 2am.

Fun times indeed, glad I’m out of it.

[Nibbles_bits]

We've heard from RPU (Popcorn), now form a Response view

80% of calls to the Police aren't crime related.
Of that 20% that are crime related, close to half of those are Domestic incidents.

RPU aren't the only team to deal with vehicle crime and driving offences (RPU will at times attend none road related incidents).
Response nick a drink driver with a head/face injury, that's hours spent in A&E "just in case", and then the file build.

Unfortunately when you wake up in the morning and find your car having been stolen at "some point" in the night, your call is added to the already long list of calls that need attendance.
Even if I'm allocated your report, if an emergency call comes in, that's the priority.

When I worked in NPT, we'd attend EVERY burglary and car crime report, completing door to door and delivering crime prevention advice. NPT now don't do this, I have to, as well as attending emergency calls.

Unfortunately Response is seen as the lowest of the low in policing, and people can't wait to leave.

Running out of Officers shouldn't be a thing, but it is.
My team has close to 25 Officers on the books. Annual Leave, sickness, training and study days reduces the "minimum number" to 18. The actual number of Officers on duty varies between 16 and 11.

Would we like to attend every call for service = yes
Can we = no

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Snoozy said:

tonight when it’s her and one other officer covering three towns between 5pm and 2am.

Fun times indeed, glad I’m out of it.

Genuine question, no motive. How do we fix it?

[Snoozy]

They couldn’t take the male anywhere due to his behaviour and the wife being of the ‘older’ generation didn’t want her children to know so wouldn’t give any details. I’ve probably missed a few things out but they tried everything to resolve the situation but were getting no where. I agree that a male with dementia should not go to custody. I wasn’t making a flippant remark about custody, it was just the start of the depressing story about how frustrating it is to be a Police Officer when your stuck a job for 5 hours with no end in sight.

[spaximus]

I have the utmost sympathy for officers on the streets, they take the brunt of the dark end of society and then get lambasted when something goes wrong.

My experience as a victim of crime is that the officers want action but the CPS are spineless and want slam dunks all the time not justice.

As for the cuts, well my new rates bill came in with a 6% increase for police and 6.4% for the fire service so how much do we need to get the level we want and actually if the CPS are so woeful will more cash for police work in getting criminals jailed and if so will the sentencing reflect the crime?

The comment from the guy whose wife was sent to a domestic is shocking. Social Services should have got there to sort out what was a crime but actually was a mental health issue, but they will claim they are under the same pressure.
My daughter is a Dr and she regularly cannot get SS to come to take people out of hospital for various reasons but it seems if there is someone there their urgency wanes.

Is it any wonder people get disillusioned in the job when they are unable to do what we the public demand. Not sure what the answer is

[CouncilFerrari]

P0PC0RN said:

CouncilFerrari said:

That is mega depressing reading, but inevitable given the budget and manning constraints.

Slightly O/T but as a copper with some experience, may I ask (in your opinion) what are the best deterrents to car theft? Or is it a case of, if they want it they'll figure out how to take it.

I think it depends on where you live, the areas surrounding where you live and what's on your driveway. If you answer those you will get a (generalised) understanding of who might be looking at your vehicle (if at all) and why

That said - If someone wants something enough they will get it

By parking something expensive/ desirable to criminals on your driveway your advertising that you have shiny expensive things or at the very least where the keys can be found. If I owned a Golf R I would park it round the corner from my home for instance.

Keyless theft is harder to prevent but quality Faraday pouches and having the keys kept as far from the vehicle as possible are only going to help. Some seem to be easier/more popular than others to target (Fords, JLR, BMW, Merc, Abarth).

Someone local too me likes his fast estates and recieved the usual 'attention' - when he had his driveway relaid he had metal rise and fall bollards installed. All the hedging cut back and enough security lights for his RS4 to be seen from Mars put in. He's had no issues since....

CCTV, security lighting*, big dog, signs about big dog on back gate, lock the back gate, no 'tools' left in garden for them to use to screw your house, don't own anything nice, allow the front of your property to be seen from the road so cut hedges back etc - the standard stuff really.

Thanks for the reply, most of it is common sense I suppose but I hadn't considered the impact of hedging and allowing thieves cover to work in.

I don't have anything desirable outside, but I've just bought some security lighting for the drive - CCTV and potentially gates will be the next additions.

[havoc]

spaximus said:

Social Services should have got there to sort out what was a crime but actually was a mental health issue, but they will claim they are under the same pressure.
My daughter is a Dr and she regularly cannot get SS to come to take people out of hospital for various reasons but it seems if there is someone there their urgency wanes.

And yet yesterday there was a Sky News article (if you find them any more believable than the Daily Mail) claiming councils are now spending 3/4 of their budgets on social care.

Would love to see the stats that make up that 3/4, as when the MiL needed help social services near-enough washed their hands of her claiming lack of budget. Wonder if some of it isn't yet more outsourcing to private sector care homes who gouge the state purse?

[vonhosen]

spaximus said:

As for the cuts, well my new rates bill came in with a 6% increase for police and 6.4% for the fire service so how much do we need to get the level we want

Inflation is running at?

That's effectively a further cut in expenditure, not an increase.
They've got to pay the pensioners out of that too & the pensioners are getting a 10% increase because their pay is linked to CPI, working officers pay isn't.