Why is car crime unpunished/ unpoliced?
Discussion
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Genuine question, no motive. How do we fix it?
Hugo, it’s a difficult question. With regards to my old force(service) they have just contacted 70 people that failed the interview recently and asked them if they were still interested in joining. I believe that they do not have to be re interviewed before joining. Whether that is a sign of the times or they need to employ enough Officers before they get penalised by the Home Office. I think it’s probably a bit of both to be honest.
In my opinion I don’t think this was a good idea, time will tell.
Snoozy said:
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Genuine question, no motive. How do we fix it?
Hugo, it’s a difficult question. With regards to my old force(service) they have just contacted 70 people that failed the interview recently and asked them if they were still interested in joining. I believe that they do not have to be re interviewed before joining. Whether that is a sign of the times or they need to employ enough Officers before they get penalised by the Home Office. I think it’s probably a bit of both to be honest.
In my opinion I don’t think this was a good idea, time will tell.
Hugo Stiglitz said:
I disagree with this.
Many cops in their early 20s who are very driven and proactive.
They are entirely different to those who joined 20-30yrs ago who spent the first 10yrs on foot patrol in their career. Nowadays less than a year in and one can be at multiple high risk incidents a shift due to being given keys or driven there.
This is a sink or swim pressure cooker. It builds experience very quickly.
Please don't think I'm belittling local policing - I loved my time on response (although it was a very different job to what it is now)Many cops in their early 20s who are very driven and proactive.
They are entirely different to those who joined 20-30yrs ago who spent the first 10yrs on foot patrol in their career. Nowadays less than a year in and one can be at multiple high risk incidents a shift due to being given keys or driven there.
This is a sink or swim pressure cooker. It builds experience very quickly.
My point is that the front line is predominantly made up of very young in service cops - they could be the most proactive poopmagnets on the planet but proactivity and drive cannot teach trade craft and definitely can't replace learnt experience and whilst I agree they are learning very quickly they are learning off other inexperienced cops or just finding their own way.
This is nothing wrong with this but sometimes they end up learning the wrong things or things which will ultimately make their lives a bit harder.
Policing is a dark art and sometimes having a old hand telling you to slow down, and instead of screaming to the burglary in progress drive the other way and hide up next to the home of the chap the intel suggests is responsible.
Or the shift grandad taking you to meet Sheila at the old people's home for a cup of tea - the residents love to see a young man in uniform you see - their big window also just happens to overlook the entrance road into a busy and problematic 'camp site' - you get a Nato standard brew in the warm and can build intelligence from a nice comfy safe chair.
Perhaps your force is different but in mine the above 'old fashioned' methods of policing have almost been eroded.
Attending mutiple high risk incidents in a shift isn't a good thing - it's a sign that society and Policing are failing. The cops can't effectively deal with what they are being asked to 'sort' let alone process it mentally when they are being turned out to the next stabbing when they haven't finished the report for the hanging they have just attended - that decompression and brew time is the most important time of the shift if you want an effective Police service.
P0PC0RN said:
Hugo Stiglitz said:
I disagree with this.
Many cops in their early 20s who are very driven and proactive.
They are entirely different to those who joined 20-30yrs ago who spent the first 10yrs on foot patrol in their career. Nowadays less than a year in and one can be at multiple high risk incidents a shift due to being given keys or driven there.
This is a sink or swim pressure cooker. It builds experience very quickly.
Please don't think I'm belittling local policing - I loved my time on response (although it was a very different job to what it is now)Many cops in their early 20s who are very driven and proactive.
They are entirely different to those who joined 20-30yrs ago who spent the first 10yrs on foot patrol in their career. Nowadays less than a year in and one can be at multiple high risk incidents a shift due to being given keys or driven there.
This is a sink or swim pressure cooker. It builds experience very quickly.
My point is that the front line is predominantly made up of very young in service cops - they could be the most proactive poopmagnets on the planet but proactivity and drive cannot teach trade craft and definitely can't replace learnt experience and whilst I agree they are learning very quickly they are learning off other inexperienced cops or just finding their own way.
This is nothing wrong with this but sometimes they end up learning the wrong things or things which will ultimately make their lives a bit harder.
Policing is a dark art and sometimes having a old hand telling you to slow down, and instead of screaming to the burglary in progress drive the other way and hide up next to the home of the chap the intel suggests is responsible.
Or the shift grandad taking you to meet Sheila at the old people's home for a cup of tea - the residents love to see a young man in uniform you see - their big window also just happens to overlook the entrance road into a busy and problematic 'camp site' - you get a Nato standard brew in the warm and can build intelligence from a nice comfy safe chair.
Perhaps your force is different but in mine the above 'old fashioned' methods of policing have almost been eroded.
Attending mutiple high risk incidents in a shift isn't a good thing - it's a sign that society and Policing are failing. The cops can't effectively deal with what they are being asked to 'sort' let alone process it mentally when they are being turned out to the next stabbing when they haven't finished the report for the hanging they have just attended - that decompression and brew time is the most important time of the shift if you want an effective Police service.
Nibbles_bits said:
Unfortunately Response is seen as the lowest of the low in policing, and people can't wait to leave.
Running out of Officers shouldn't be a thing, but it is.
My team has close to 25 Officers on the books. Annual Leave, sickness, training and study days reduces the "minimum number" to 18. The actual number of Officers on duty varies between 16 and 11.
Would we like to attend every call for service = yes
Can we = no
Every other team - RPU included - is there to provide specialist support to local policing. Unfortunately the current 'understanding' is the polar opposite - the belief being that local policing are there to support everybody else and pick up what's left over/ no cool enough for a sexy squad.
The 'people can't wait to leave' thing is massive - the frontline know it, the bosses get told about it, no one does anything about it.
If people hate their job and they can't see a way to improve it - gucci teams are dead man's shoes etc - they will leave.
P0PC0RN said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Unfortunately Response is seen as the lowest of the low in policing, and people can't wait to leave.
Running out of Officers shouldn't be a thing, but it is.
My team has close to 25 Officers on the books. Annual Leave, sickness, training and study days reduces the "minimum number" to 18. The actual number of Officers on duty varies between 16 and 11.
Would we like to attend every call for service = yes
Can we = no
up on a specialist unit they'll send you to response. up on response you aren't getting sent to a specialist unit.vonhosen said:
P0PC0RN said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Unfortunately Response is seen as the lowest of the low in policing, and people can't wait to leave.
Running out of Officers shouldn't be a thing, but it is.
My team has close to 25 Officers on the books. Annual Leave, sickness, training and study days reduces the "minimum number" to 18. The actual number of Officers on duty varies between 16 and 11.
Would we like to attend every call for service = yes
Can we = no
up on a specialist unit they'll send you to response. up on response you aren't getting sent to a specialist unit.I remember when the total quality management approach swept through my old force in the 90's. The question everybody needed to ask themselves was - what do I do in my day to day role to support the officer on the beat at 3am. Thats how important the role was seen back then. Sadly, no longer the case.
Dibble said:
It's possibly my really slow wind up wifi but I can't see any ages on that just colours and percentages unfortunately!I would be interested to know whether the very young frontline is a national 'experience' or just a local one!
I imagine the recent recruitment drives and the numbers leaving mid service will change the numbers considerably - the vast majority of our recruits are <25
vonhosen said:
spaximus said:
As for the cuts, well my new rates bill came in with a 6% increase for police and 6.4% for the fire service so how much do we need to get the level we want
Inflation is running at?That's effectively a further cut in expenditure, not an increase.
They've got to pay the pensioners out of that too & the pensioners are getting a 10% increase because their pay is linked to CPI, working officers pay isn't.
There is a problem with funding for everything and my rates have gone up substantially which I have never not expected, but when I hear cuts are responsible for all that is wrong, then what is the level as everyone says it is not enough,, to get us back to fighting crime.
And as I said is there any point if we have prisoners being released as prisons are full and a CPS who does not want to take cases to court.
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Genuine question, no motive. How do we fix it?
Unfortunately - by spending lots of moneyTo fix the Police/ wider criminal justice system (and the NHS) the Government are going to open that dusty old cheque book....
Resourcing and equipment is key to what we are trying (and currently failing) to achieve. Policing/CJS affects all of us so perhaps it's time to fund it accordingly.
I'm not talking about local cops rolling around in Jags or RPU cruising around in RS6's (as awesome as that would be). All public service expenditure should be justified as we are all paying for it, but if a force needs a road crime team, a shop lifting squad or a dedicated DV unit then it should be paid for without hesitation - because that's what the tax payer expects of us/the police.
Forces are critisied for failing to attend 999 calls in a predetermined time - however, I would argue that if a Force doesn't have the required resources available to cover all eventualities at any time then it's not fit for purpose and that's a Government issue that they needed to sort yesterday.
We don't have minimum staffing anymore as we could never meet it - it's desirable staffing now. They cannot afford to staff my unit and it's a national requirement - in fact we got told last week we are loosing a load of positions to save money - we are already ineffective
When a car breaks down it costs money to fix, if your lucky enough to have some spare parts and the knowledge you might be able to fix it on the cheap but after a while the spare parts are gone/ worn out and your knowledge is exhausted so it starts to cost some money. Once that money runs out the car usually gets scrapped. But what happens when that's your only means of transport and you have no money?
You keep using it, willing it to go on but it's in a dangerous condition, on its last legs and at some point it's going to completely fail and leave you stranded in a dangerous position.
This is currently your Police service
spaximus said:
vonhosen said:
spaximus said:
As for the cuts, well my new rates bill came in with a 6% increase for police and 6.4% for the fire service so how much do we need to get the level we want
Inflation is running at?That's effectively a further cut in expenditure, not an increase.
They've got to pay the pensioners out of that too & the pensioners are getting a 10% increase because their pay is linked to CPI, working officers pay isn't.
There is a problem with funding for everything and my rates have gone up substantially which I have never not expected, but when I hear cuts are responsible for all that is wrong, then what is the level as everyone says it is not enough,, to get us back to fighting crime.
And as I said is there any point if we have prisoners being released as prisons are full and a CPS who does not want to take cases to court.
73% of expenditure is wages. If you make cuts then staff have to go to fund the cuts. They've been selling property to try cover the short fall in funding (in order to just retain not increase numbers), but they've got nothing left. If they want to go back to neighbourhood Policing they can't, because they've sold all the bases. Huge areas are being covered with everybody covering from a single large building instead of local policing.
Greendubber said:
I was training with an external force last week, their PO carriers were 09 plate and had holes in them, literally rusted through.
Terrible state of affairs really, they were totally f#cked.
At least there's no traffic police about to stop and stick a prohibition on them Terrible state of affairs really, they were totally f#cked.
Snoozy said:
Hugo, it’s a difficult question. With regards to my old force(service) they have just contacted 70 people that failed the interview recently and asked them if they were still interested in joining.
I believe that they do not have to be re interviewed before joining. Whether that is a sign of the times or they need to employ enough Officers before they get penalised by the Home Office. I think it’s probably a bit of both to be honest.
In my opinion I don’t think this was a good idea, time will tell.
What?! Please tell me this isn't the NWestI believe that they do not have to be re interviewed before joining. Whether that is a sign of the times or they need to employ enough Officers before they get penalised by the Home Office. I think it’s probably a bit of both to be honest.
In my opinion I don’t think this was a good idea, time will tell.
Bigends said:
Its difficult to prevent car crime i.e. theft if/from or damage to.
A lot of work used to be carried out in order to trace offenders, sadly no longer the case due to resourcing.
9/10 vehicle crime scenes would be attended initially by officers and later by CSI staff.
This generated forensic hits from fingerprints / DNA obtained from scenes which would then be tasked out to volume crime units to deal with suspects.
In relation to stolen vehicles a lot of work was carried out in relation to hits on the ANPR systems throughout the country - dont know if this still occurs.
Theres plenty of work that can carried out on this class of crime with the will and more importantly the resources.
I can't remember how many calls we got for a stolen car when the owner had left it in the driveway with the engine running to get it warm, and some scrote simple helped himself, of how many broken car windows where the female owner had left her handbag clearly visible on the passengers seat.A lot of work used to be carried out in order to trace offenders, sadly no longer the case due to resourcing.
9/10 vehicle crime scenes would be attended initially by officers and later by CSI staff.
This generated forensic hits from fingerprints / DNA obtained from scenes which would then be tasked out to volume crime units to deal with suspects.
In relation to stolen vehicles a lot of work was carried out in relation to hits on the ANPR systems throughout the country - dont know if this still occurs.
Theres plenty of work that can carried out on this class of crime with the will and more importantly the resources.
You can't fix stupid.
P0PC0RN said:
Hugo Stiglitz said:
Genuine question, no motive. How do we fix it?
Unfortunately - by spending lots of moneyTo fix the Police/ wider criminal justice system (and the NHS) the Government are going to open that dusty old cheque book....
Resourcing and equipment is key to what we are trying (and currently failing) to achieve. Policing/CJS affects all of us so perhaps it's time to fund it accordingly.
I'm not talking about local cops rolling around in Jags or RPU cruising around in RS6's (as awesome as that would be). All public service expenditure should be justified as we are all paying for it, but if a force needs a road crime team, a shop lifting squad or a dedicated DV unit then it should be paid for without hesitation - because that's what the tax payer expects of us/the police.
Forces are critisied for failing to attend 999 calls in a predetermined time - however, I would argue that if a Force doesn't have the required resources available to cover all eventualities at any time then it's not fit for purpose and that's a Government issue that they needed to sort yesterday.
We don't have minimum staffing anymore as we could never meet it - it's desirable staffing now. They cannot afford to staff my unit and it's a national requirement - in fact we got told last week we are loosing a load of positions to save money - we are already ineffective
When a car breaks down it costs money to fix, if your lucky enough to have some spare parts and the knowledge you might be able to fix it on the cheap but after a while the spare parts are gone/ worn out and your knowledge is exhausted so it starts to cost some money. Once that money runs out the car usually gets scrapped. But what happens when that's your only means of transport and you have no money?
You keep using it, willing it to go on but it's in a dangerous condition, on its last legs and at some point it's going to completely fail and leave you stranded in a dangerous position.
This is currently your Police service
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