Speeding offence fiasco, any advice welcome

[macky17]

On 11.9.22 my stepson was clocked at 69mph in a variable 60 zone on the M4. He was borrowing his mother's car at the time and so of course the notice arrived in her name. As we know, she had 28 days to respond and nominate the actual driver. She made the mistake of trusting him to complete the form and return it on her behalf. He did so, completing it correctly and sending it off after about 3 weeks. Unfortunately, he applied insufficient postage to the envelope... (would there have been a prepaid envelope? If so, he didn't use it).

Due to the postal strikes (I assume) the envelope came back to us undelivered almost 5 MONTHS later! (Naturally in the meantime a letter had arrived warning her/him that time was running out but he ignored it (disposed of it) because he had already sent the forms back.)

Once we received the undelivered forms, he phoned to try to explain what had happened and of course was informed that it was now far too late for him to take responsibility as the actual driver of the car. She has now received two notices of prosecution: one for the original driving offense and the second for failing to respond to the initial notice in a timely manner.

We have contacted two solicitors. One has advised her to plead guilty to the second offense of failure to respond, the other to plead innocent and plead her case. Of course, she cannot plead guilty to the driving offense itself as she was not driving the car! (and they know this since my stepson's phone call). Therefore, there will be a court case whichever option she chooses.

What a mess. Opinions welcome please or, alternatively, details of a good solicitor... Thanks.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

It's a mess & if it were me I'd find a legal expert.

I do believe the notice specifically says "do not pass this letter on to the driver if it wasn't you" or words to that effect.

It's an odd one, as the UK post has generally been pretty good?

[SmoothCriminal]

The form is for the registered keeper to complete.

A separate form will be sent to the nominated driver.

Suppose your wife could try and plead her case but she is bang to rights on failing to nominate.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

There must be 1,000s of precedence of this sort of thing happening. Any decent legal bod must know how to proceed.

Good luck

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

macky17 said:

in the meantime a letter had arrived warning her/him that time was running out but he ignored it (disposed of it) because he had already sent the forms back.)

I've read your original post again. Hindsight is a clever thing, but that was a massive warning that the thing had gotten lost. Surely filling it in again was the answer as them receiving two versions was a nil downside, but not receiving any is a real problem?

Ah, the exuberance of youth I guess! (I've been a bit of a risk manager in my jobs and suppose I always assume that something has gone wrong, rather than it will be alright on the night. That too is not without issues )

[macky17]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

macky17 said:

in the meantime a letter had arrived warning her/him that time was running out but he ignored it (disposed of it) because he had already sent the forms back.)

I've read your original post again. Hindsight is a clever thing, but that was a massive warning that the thing had gotten lost. Surely filling it in again was the answer as them receiving two versions was a nil downside, but not receiving any is a real problem?

Ah, the exuberance of youth I guess! (I've been a bit of a risk manager in my jobs and suppose I always assume that something has gone wrong, rather than it will be alright on the night. That too is not without issues )

As I recall, this letter arrived just a couple of days after he posted so he mistakenly assumed they'd crossed. Yes, your philosophy is the correct one I agree.

Thanks for the replies folks.

[Cliftonite]

Agtlaw, of this parish, will have the answer!

[martinbiz]

macky17 said:

On 11.9.22 my stepson was clocked at 69mph in a variable 60 zone on the M4. He was borrowing his mother's car at the time and so of course the notice arrived in her name. As we know, she had 28 days to respond and nominate the actual driver. She made the mistake of trusting him to complete the form and return it on her behalf. He did so, completing it correctly and sending it off after about 3 weeks. Unfortunately, he applied insufficient postage to the envelope... (would there have been a prepaid envelope? If so, he didn't use it).

Due to the postal strikes (I assume) the envelope came back to us undelivered almost 5 MONTHS later! (Naturally in the meantime a letter had arrived warning her/him that time was running out but he ignored it (disposed of it) because he had already sent the forms back.)

Once we received the undelivered forms, he phoned to try to explain what had happened and of course was informed that it was now far too late for him to take responsibility as the actual driver of the car. She has now received two notices of prosecution: one for the original driving offense and the second for failing to respond to the initial notice in a timely manner.

We have contacted two solicitors. One has advised her to plead guilty to the second offense of failure to respond, the other to plead innocent and plead her case. Of course, she cannot plead guilty to the driving offense itself as she was not driving the car! (and they know this since my stepson's phone call). Therefore, there will be a court case whichever option she chooses.

What a mess. Opinions welcome please or, alternatively, details of a good solicitor... Thanks.

In the normal course of events being charged with both offences is helpful, you would plead not guilty to both and at court offer to change your plea to guilty on the speeding on the proviso they drop the failing to furnish charge which normally comes up trumps, obviously this is not an option because the person charged with FTF is not the person speeding and has told them so. So the only option appears to be guilty for FTF and NG to the speeding. Maybe a pm to AGT would be a prudent thing to do

[agtlaw]

macky17 said:

On 11.9.22 my stepson was clocked at 69mph in a variable 60 zone on the M4. He was borrowing his mother's car at the time and so of course the notice arrived in her name. As we know, she had 28 days to respond and nominate the actual driver. She made the mistake of trusting him to complete the form and return it on her behalf. He did so, completing it correctly and sending it off after about 3 weeks. Unfortunately, he applied insufficient postage to the envelope... (would there have been a prepaid envelope? If so, he didn't use it).

Due to the postal strikes (I assume) the envelope came back to us undelivered almost 5 MONTHS later! (Naturally in the meantime a letter had arrived warning her/him that time was running out but he ignored it (disposed of it) because he had already sent the forms back.)

Once we received the undelivered forms, he phoned to try to explain what had happened and of course was informed that it was now far too late for him to take responsibility as the actual driver of the car. She has now received two notices of prosecution: one for the original driving offense and the second for failing to respond to the initial notice in a timely manner.

We have contacted two solicitors. One has advised her to plead guilty to the second offense of failure to respond, the other to plead innocent and plead her case. Of course, she cannot plead guilty to the driving offense itself as she was not driving the car! (and they know this since my stepson's phone call). Therefore, there will be a court case whichever option she chooses.

What a mess. Opinions welcome please or, alternatively, details of a good solicitor... Thanks.

I assume you have received a Single Justice Procedure Notice rather than "two notices of prosecution." If so then the correct strategy is as follows:

1) Defendant to complete and send s.172 form to the police. Cover letter to explain circumstances. Do it today. Use Signed For post.

2) Defendant to use makeaplea website to plead NGx2.

3) Send reps to the police prosecutor.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

macky17 said:

She made the mistake of trusting him to complete the form and return it on her behalf.

As others have said, I'm afraid she's guilty. It was her job to complete the form.

[macky17]

agtlaw said:

macky17 said:

On 11.9.22 my stepson was clocked at 69mph in a variable 60 zone on the M4. He was borrowing his mother's car at the time and so of course the notice arrived in her name. As we know, she had 28 days to respond and nominate the actual driver. She made the mistake of trusting him to complete the form and return it on her behalf. He did so, completing it correctly and sending it off after about 3 weeks. Unfortunately, he applied insufficient postage to the envelope... (would there have been a prepaid envelope? If so, he didn't use it).

Due to the postal strikes (I assume) the envelope came back to us undelivered almost 5 MONTHS later! (Naturally in the meantime a letter had arrived warning her/him that time was running out but he ignored it (disposed of it) because he had already sent the forms back.)

Once we received the undelivered forms, he phoned to try to explain what had happened and of course was informed that it was now far too late for him to take responsibility as the actual driver of the car. She has now received two notices of prosecution: one for the original driving offense and the second for failing to respond to the initial notice in a timely manner.

We have contacted two solicitors. One has advised her to plead guilty to the second offense of failure to respond, the other to plead innocent and plead her case. Of course, she cannot plead guilty to the driving offense itself as she was not driving the car! (and they know this since my stepson's phone call). Therefore, there will be a court case whichever option she chooses.

What a mess. Opinions welcome please or, alternatively, details of a good solicitor... Thanks.

I assume you have received a Single Justice Procedure Notice rather than "two notices of prosecution." If so then the correct strategy is as follows:

1) Defendant to complete and send s.172 form to the police. Cover letter to explain circumstances. Do it today. Use Signed For post.

2) Defendant to use makeaplea website to plead NGx2.

3) Send reps to the police prosecutor.

Thank you, sir.
Yes just a single notice. Could you just clarify number 3?

[macky17]

I still don't really see how she can plead not guilty to the failure to notify as it was our fault the envelope had insufficient postage attached. Guilty with mitigating circumstances perhaps. I'm thinking we should go through a solicitor. Can anyone recommend a good one as we are getting conflicting advice?

[Sebring440]

macky17 said:

we are getting conflicting advice?

What did you expect on an internet forum?

[paintman]

You do realise that agtlaw is a barrister specialising in motoring matters?
http://www.counsel.direct/
Follow his advice & no-one else's.

[CoolHands]

I shall be similarly unhelpful: How dare he drive at 70 on a motorway!

[macky17]

Sebring440 said:

macky17 said:

we are getting conflicting advice?

What did you expect on an internet forum?

Sorry, no I meant that the two solicitors we asked gave conflicting advice. I realise everyone here is trying to be helpful and I appreciate it.

[martinbiz]

macky17 said:

I still don't really see how she can plead not guilty to the failure to notify as it was our fault the envelope had insufficient postage attached. Guilty with mitigating circumstances perhaps. I'm thinking we should go through a solicitor. Can anyone recommend a good one as we are getting conflicting advice?

You have been advised by AGT I would follow that advice, it would seem there is a plan. I would contact him, it would seem to be worth a couple of hundred quid of anyone's money for an hour on the phone
http://www.counsel.direct/

[Panamax]

macky17 said:

Sorry, no I meant that the two solicitors we asked gave conflicting advice.

It's no use asking a couple of passing solicitors on the golf course, at the pub or whatever. You need proper, paid advice specifically from a solicitor experienced in motoring offences. Most solicitors will know diddly-squat about minor motoring offences.

[macky17]

Panamax said:

macky17 said:

Sorry, no I meant that the two solicitors we asked gave conflicting advice.

It's no use asking a couple of passing solicitors on the golf course, at the pub or whatever. You need proper, paid advice specifically from a solicitor experienced in motoring offences. Most solicitors will know diddly-squat about minor motoring offences.

These were telephone enquiries to two solicitors, both of whom claimed to specialise in motoring offenses...

[Sheepshanks]

macky17 said:

I still don't really see how she can plead not guilty to the failure to notify as it was our fault the envelope had insufficient postage attached.

The "insufficient postage" excuse it a bit odd - it's not it's an unusual size letter.