Wide single 2 lane carriageways - overtaking

[aturnick54]

Rather curious as to what the general etiquette and rules are around these roads where they're plenty wide enough for 3 cars side by side, such as the below example.



Should you expect traffic to keep left in both directions so that you can overtake in the middle? Just feels a bit strange overtaking and straddling the central line with oncoming cars.

Would be interesting to see what an insurer would think should there be a head-on collision while a vehicle is overtaking.

[Percy.]

aturnick54 said:

Rather curious as to what the general etiquette and rules are around these roads where they're plenty wide enough for 3 cars side by side, such as the below example.



Should you expect traffic to keep left in both directions so that you can overtake in the middle? Just feels a bit strange overtaking and straddling the central line with oncoming cars.

Would be interesting to see what an insurer would think should there be a head-on collision while a vehicle is overtaking.

Overtaking in a similar situation to the above has been prevalent on the A5 near Oswestry for many years.

ETA: photo taken from Google Street view.

Edited by Percy. on Thursday 23 March 14:26

[CheesecakeRunner]

I’ll happily overtake like the blue car in the photo, but I have no expectations of on-coming traffic to keep left. I make sure I do it in such a way that doesn’t require anyone else to alter their course or speed. If I can’t do that, then I don’t over take. I also make sure my indicator is on all the time, especially if I’m intending to pass multiple cars.

And like any overtake, I assume the person I’m overtaking has no idea I’m there.

[ScoobyChris]

I think if you're going to do it you need co-operation from overtakee(s) and oncoming traffic. Personally, I'd look to treat them as a sequence of individual overtakes where possible so, even if you stay sat in the middle of the road, there is always the option to pull into a gap if the situation changes, rather than just assuming you can blat down the middle and everyone will be accommodating. Also need to be aware of the possibility of someone coming towards deciding to pull the same manouevre too.

As for insurance, I'd imagine it's like every other overtake - if you drive head on into something, you're probably largely at fault

Chris

[Evil.soup]

Percy. said:

aturnick54 said:

Rather curious as to what the general etiquette and rules are around these roads where they're plenty wide enough for 3 cars side by side, such as the below example.



Should you expect traffic to keep left in both directions so that you can overtake in the middle? Just feels a bit strange overtaking and straddling the central line with oncoming cars.

Would be interesting to see what an insurer would think should there be a head-on collision while a vehicle is overtaking.

Overtaking in a similar situation to the above has been prevalent on the A5 near Oswestry for many years.

ETA: photo taken from Google Street view.

Edited by Percy. on Thursday 23 March 14:26

As soon as I saw the picture, I thought, A5.

I have overtaken in such a way on the A5, in fact, it is very much the given and many cars do so as it tends to be dead straight for miles, you have to be careful though. There is almost an unwritten rule of first come first served, if there is someone oncoming filtering in the same way, you just have to wait your turn.

Not sure what the highway code would make of it though, we are not exactly filtering on a motorbike...

[ARHarh]

Percy. said:

aturnick54 said:

Rather curious as to what the general etiquette and rules are around these roads where they're plenty wide enough for 3 cars side by side, such as the below example.



Should you expect traffic to keep left in both directions so that you can overtake in the middle? Just feels a bit strange overtaking and straddling the central line with oncoming cars.

Would be interesting to see what an insurer would think should there be a head-on collision while a vehicle is overtaking.

Overtaking in a similar situation to the above has been prevalent on the A5 near Oswestry for many years.

ETA: photo taken from Google Street view.

Edited by Percy. on Thursday 23 March 14:26

Saw this and straight away thought of our beloved A5 in Oswestry. You will find the overtaking is the reason they close the road road once a month to clear up the accidents.

Reminds me of the 60's and 70's when they had "suicide lanes" basically a 3 lane single carriageway where the centre lane was for use in either direction. They had a section on the A303 near Basingstoke if I remember correctly.

[Actual]

aturnick54 said:

Should you expect traffic to keep left in both directions so that you can overtake in the middle? Just feels a bit strange overtaking and straddling the central line with oncoming cars.

Adaptive cruise control with lane assist actively steers a car into the centre of the lane but at least there is collision avoidance cameras and radar.

[jan8p]

ScoobyChris said:

I think if you're going to do it you need co-operation from overtakee(s) and oncoming traffic. Personally, I'd look to treat them as a sequence of individual overtakes where possible so, even if you stay sat in the middle of the road, there is always the option to pull into a gap if the situation changes, rather than just assuming you can blat down the middle and everyone will be accommodating. Also need to be aware of the possibility of someone coming towards deciding to pull the same manouevre too.

As for insurance, I'd imagine it's like every other overtake - if you drive head on into something, you're probably largely at fault

Chris

This. You should never cause another road user to alter their position. Hold behind the vehicles until there's no oncoming traffic and do one by one, so you always have an escape route (back in behind the car, or the gap infront of the car) before you meet the oncoming vehicle.

Edited by jan8p on Thursday 23 March 15:06

[Evil.soup]

ARHarh said:

Percy. said:

aturnick54 said:

Rather curious as to what the general etiquette and rules are around these roads where they're plenty wide enough for 3 cars side by side, such as the below example.



Should you expect traffic to keep left in both directions so that you can overtake in the middle? Just feels a bit strange overtaking and straddling the central line with oncoming cars.

Would be interesting to see what an insurer would think should there be a head-on collision while a vehicle is overtaking.

Overtaking in a similar situation to the above has been prevalent on the A5 near Oswestry for many years.

ETA: photo taken from Google Street view.

Edited by Percy. on Thursday 23 March 14:26

Saw this and straight away thought of our beloved A5 in Oswestry. You will find the overtaking is the reason they close the road road once a month to clear up the accidents.

Reminds me of the 60's and 70's when they had "suicide lanes" basically a 3 lane single carriageway where the centre lane was for use in either direction. They had a section on the A303 near Basingstoke if I remember correctly.

The A465, Heads of the Valleys road in South Wales has only in recent years undergone changes from a 3 lane road with right of way to both directions, it was lethal as the right of way continued into and through blind bends. It has only been the last couple of years this has stopped since they are working on the whole length to make it a dual. I always found it way to dangerous to attempt to pass on the A465 given the blind bends and the fact that both drivers had the right to use the middle lane, like playing chicken at 60mph because both felt they were in the right, saw it a few times!

The A5 I have found people are far more tentative when overtaking, although, there is always the clown that guns it all the way start to finish up the middle off each roundabout.

[Dashnine]

Is not building roads this wide inviting people to drive up the middle of the road?

It almost seems to be defeating the object (of designing roads to be as safe as possible).

[Turbobanana]

I've used that section of A5 for over 30 years and always look for opportunities to overtake, but - as said above - with great caution and always ensuring a back up plan in the form of a gap to go into. Also, there is the constant fear of the BiB hiding behind a bush with a hairdryer these days.

[TTmonkey]

Dashnine said:

Is not building roads this wide inviting people to drive up the middle of the road?

It almost seems to be defeating the object (of designing roads to be as safe as possible).

There are many roads like this and I find them safe to use in this way. I don’t know if they are statistically more dangerous, or is it more dangerous to make overtaking harder by not have this space when it’s available?


A465 as pointed out above had three marked lanes until recently with areas with no control over who was in the right to use it, through many fast sweeping bends, and it was indeed fekin bananas.

[Mave]

ARHarh said:

Saw this and straight away thought of our beloved A5 in Oswestry. You will find the overtaking is the reason they close the road road once a month to clear up the accidents.

Reminds me of the 60's and 70's when they had "suicide lanes" basically a 3 lane single carriageway where the centre lane was for use in either direction. They had a section on the A303 near Basingstoke if I remember correctly.

"suicide Lane" is the phrase I remember!

[Dashnine]

Mave said:

ARHarh said:

Saw this and straight away thought of our beloved A5 in Oswestry. You will find the overtaking is the reason they close the road road once a month to clear up the accidents.

Reminds me of the 60's and 70's when they had "suicide lanes" basically a 3 lane single carriageway where the centre lane was for use in either direction. They had a section on the A303 near Basingstoke if I remember correctly.

"suicide Lane" is the phrase I remember!

To me the wide two lanes are worse than the three lane as there’s no clear middle lane, nor do people being overtaken always keep to the left of their lane. I’d prefer alternate two lane / one lane using double white line lines to two wide lanes or the three lane free for all.

[Canon_Fodder]

Another regular on the A5 here...

It used to have a suicide lane in may places.

The overtake as shown by the OP should only be used for overtaking farm vehicles

Most wagons on the A5 are barreling their way up to Holyhead and are doing 60 or near as dammit

As others have mentioned - occasional but randomly placed camera vans add to the risk if pushing on

[siremoon]

Each to their own but I wouldn't do what that overtaking car is doing in the OP's picture. I have a simple rule: if an overtake requires an oncoming vehicle to be fully aware of my presence to prevent a head-on then I don't do it. Too many drivers who don't pay attention. Others can, and will, do what they like.

The Ilminster bypass on the A303 was originally like this and there were so many serious accidents that they had to rework it to standard width lanes with centre overtaking lanes alternating for each direction.

[E-bmw]

Dashnine said:

Is not building roads this wide inviting people to drive up the middle of the road?

It almost seems to be defeating the object (of designing roads to be as safe as possible).

I don't see the width of the road as being an invite to do so, and many drivers on such roads quite simply do not consider even a safe overtake as an option.

I also don't see that a wide road is any less safe, the opposite in fact, consider this in narrow/wide road format.

Overtaking car misjudges it and is overtaking when traffic is in both directions:

Wide road - everyone passes safely but maybe needs to move over a bit.

Narrow road - heavy emergency brake is the best outcome, head on is the worst.

Which is safer now?

[sherbertdip]

If it had 3 lanes that either direction can use for overtaking the middle lane is called the suicide lane, I believe making these wide roads into 2 lanes was to reduce the "I'm in the overtaking lane and I'm overtaking no matter what" mentality.

[vikingaero]

On many of lanes like this in the Cabbage Counties (Norfolk, Cambs, Lincs) I'll drive next to the white line to allow people to overtake. If there is a shoulder, as there often is, I'll move over and help the person overtake. Most HGV drivers and drivers of slow vehicles such as cranes and tractors also do this.

[Riley Blue]

siremoon said:

Each to their own but I wouldn't do what that overtaking car is doing in the OP's picture. I have a simple rule: if an overtake requires an oncoming vehicle to be fully aware of my presence to prevent a head-on then I don't do it. Too many drivers who don't pay attention. Others can, and will, do what they like.

The Ilminster bypass on the A303 was originally like this and there were so many serious accidents that they had to rework it to standard width lanes with centre overtaking lanes alternating for each direction.

I lived in the area when the Ilminster bypass was built, a folly in road design if ever there was one with reports of serious accidents a regular occurrence. It was, I believe, originally intended to be a dual carriageway but cost cutting resulted in it having a suicide lane instead.