Noise limit for road cars

Author
Discussion

Bibs_LEF

Original Poster:

790 posts

206 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
It's very handy that the exhaust is at the back of the car, and the seats are in the middle. Means you don't hear all 113dB directly in your lughole.

If you want to sit behind my car for a while, you're more than welcome.

Sheriff JWPepper

3,851 posts

203 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
Bibs_LEF said:
It's very handy that the exhaust is at the back of the car, and the seats are in the middle. Means you don't hear all 113dB directly in your lughole.

If you want to sit behind my car for a while, you're more than welcome.
That about sums up the attitude of people with such exhausts.

GKP

15,099 posts

240 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
Sheriff JWPepper said:
During the War.....
That sure is a mighty big horse you're on there, Sheriff.

Sheriff JWPepper

3,851 posts

203 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
GKP said:
Sheriff JWPepper said:
That sure is a mighty big horse you're on there, Sheriff.
I know, I know I'm just extremely frustrated with a couple of local nerks who moved in and have fitted droning exhausts to scensoredt cars and then drive with no consideration for other residents. I've no real problem with decent sounding cars and am actually the sort of nerd who winds down my window to listen to a TVR, Porker or RS4 at the lights. I guess the MOT should be qualitative not quantative.

tvrgit

8,470 posts

251 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
herewego said:
DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?
Yep I think that's all that can be measured - as I said yesterday.
herewego said:
Vehicle noise standards are laid down in Directive 70/157/EEC and subsequent amendments [3], which regulates the technical approval of new vehicles and currently sets noise emission limits of 74dB(A) for passenger cars and 80dB(A) for trucks.
Ref:http://www.transportenvironment.org/module-htmlpages-display-pid-20.html

Cars have to go through a european approval procedure which includes noise of course. I believe a couple of sports car manufacturers have gained approval for slightly increased noise levels.

This suggests to me that if you modify your exhaust to exceed 74 dB(A) then you are breaking the law.
My understanding of the European Directive is that those limits are the equivalent of "European Type Approval" so that if member countries individually decide to introduce noise limits, they cannot be lower than that EC limit - in other words cars that comply with those limits cannot be banned in any member state.

It does however remain up to member countries to introduce any individual national limits, and Britain has not done so, therefore there are no noise limits on production cars in Britain.

Modifying your exhaust so that it is "louder than standard" is an offence, regardless of its measured sound level. So Kev'n'Sharon in their Corsa with an exhaust level of say 85, up from say 74 standard, would be nicked, while you psass in your standard TVR at 100 dB completely legally.

As I said yesterday, though, it's the thin edge of the wedge...

Edited by tvrgit on Monday 26th May 12:53

Brett928S2

1,504 posts

214 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
Bibs_LEF said:
Only takes 15 mins of that to give you permanent hearing damage...........

smile
Hi smile

Thats total tosh....where did you get that information ?

All the best Brett smile

Edited by Brett928S2 on Monday 26th May 13:18

stigmundfreud

22,454 posts

209 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
theres loud but acceptable (large cc at 100db) then there is taking the piss (tiny cc at 100dB) then there is please fk off and take that anoyance away (100dB+)

To those with ridiculously loud exhausts I seriously hope they do start to clamp down as they are about as nice to listen to as my mother in law having sex. The noise is also dependant on the engine, an IL4 motorbike screaming at 100dB is annoying but a big v8 is a nice sound but any louder and its offensive.

herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
GKP said:
herewego said:
This suggests to me that if you modify your exhaust to exceed 74 dB(A) then you are breaking the law.
I don't think car in question has had it's factory fitted exhaust modified. It's been replaced. Grey area?
I don't see any grey there. Replacement with something different is a modification.

herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
tvrgit said:
herewego said:
DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?
Yep I think that's all that can be measured - as I said yesterday.
herewego said:
Vehicle noise standards are laid down in Directive 70/157/EEC and subsequent amendments [3], which regulates the technical approval of new vehicles and currently sets noise emission limits of 74dB(A) for passenger cars and 80dB(A) for trucks.
Ref:http://www.transportenvironment.org/module-htmlpages-display-pid-20.html

Cars have to go through a european approval procedure which includes noise of course. I believe a couple of sports car manufacturers have gained approval for slightly increased noise levels.

This suggests to me that if you modify your exhaust to exceed 74 dB(A) then you are breaking the law.
My understanding of the European Directive is that those limits are the equivalent of "European Type Approval" so that if member countries individually decide to introduce noise limits, they cannot be lower than that EC limit - in other words cars that comply with those limits cannot be banned in any member state.

It does however remain up to member countries to introduce any individual national limits, and Britain has not done so, therefore there are no noise limits on production cars in Britain.

Modifying your exhaust so that it is "louder than standard" is an offence, regardless of its measured sound level. So Kev'n'Sharon in their Corsa with an exhaust level of say 85, up from say 74 standard, would be nicked, while you psass in your standard TVR at 100 dB completely legally.

As I said yesterday, though, it's the thin edge of the wedge...

Edited by tvrgit on Monday 26th May 12:53
As far as I can see Britain does have a noise limit, it has the limit of the noise limit as originally supplied, i.e. 74 dB(A). Modifying to increase the noise level is illegal therefore the limit is 74. I don't believe TVRs were allowed to be sold at 100, why should they? Did they have special SVA, i.e did they not have to comply with EU directives?

Bibs_LEF

Original Poster:

790 posts

206 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
If you can't increase the noise level of your exhuast from the level when it was new how come companies like Larini, Tubi, Quicksilver et al sell aftermarket systems without a 'track use only' caveat? To be fair, even that would be little use as they are too loud for most tracks anyway!

Back to topic, what would the offence be and what are the likely penalties?

Ps it's not a corsa/saxo, it's on a very good looking high performance supercar!

tvrgit

8,470 posts

251 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
herewego said:
tvrgit said:
herewego said:
DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?
Yep I think that's all that can be measured - as I said yesterday.
herewego said:
Vehicle noise standards are laid down in Directive 70/157/EEC and subsequent amendments [3], which regulates the technical approval of new vehicles and currently sets noise emission limits of 74dB(A) for passenger cars and 80dB(A) for trucks.
Ref:http://www.transportenvironment.org/module-htmlpages-display-pid-20.html

Cars have to go through a european approval procedure which includes noise of course. I believe a couple of sports car manufacturers have gained approval for slightly increased noise levels.

This suggests to me that if you modify your exhaust to exceed 74 dB(A) then you are breaking the law.
My understanding of the European Directive is that those limits are the equivalent of "European Type Approval" so that if member countries individually decide to introduce noise limits, they cannot be lower than that EC limit - in other words cars that comply with those limits cannot be banned in any member state.

It does however remain up to member countries to introduce any individual national limits, and Britain has not done so, therefore there are no noise limits on production cars in Britain.

Modifying your exhaust so that it is "louder than standard" is an offence, regardless of its measured sound level. So Kev'n'Sharon in their Corsa with an exhaust level of say 85, up from say 74 standard, would be nicked, while you psass in your standard TVR at 100 dB completely legally.

As I said yesterday, though, it's the thin edge of the wedge...

Edited by tvrgit on Monday 26th May 12:53
As far as I can see Britain does have a noise limit, it has the limit of the noise limit as originally supplied, i.e. 74 dB(A). Modifying to increase the noise level is illegal therefore the limit is 74. I don't believe TVRs were allowed to be sold at 100, why should they? Did they have special SVA, i.e did they not have to comply with EU directives?
There is no noise limit in Britain. As I said, it's up to individual EU members to decide if they want to introduce limits or not. Britain hasn't.

The EU directive only sets out the minimum that any national limit can be (if that country ewants to introduce one), not that all cars in every country have to comply with that limit.

Vipers

32,796 posts

227 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
Brett928S2 said:
Bibs_LEF said:
Only takes 15 mins of that to give you permanent hearing damage...........

smile
Hi smile

Thats total tosh....where did you get that information ?

All the best Brett smile

Edited by Brett928S2 on Monday 26th May 13:18
As my memory serves me, the recognised 8 hour working day exposure to noise is 93 dba, for each increase of 3 dba, you reduce it by 50%, so 96 = 4 hours, 99 = 2 hours, work the rest out yourself.

To be specific, perhaps change my wording in my first post to read "May cause permanent hearing damage", if you visit disco's, you may have noticed a reduction to ability to hear as usual in the morning, thats a temporary shift threshold in hearing caused by exsessive noise the night before.

smile

DucatiGary

7,765 posts

224 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
jj. said:
A TVR main dealer once failed my TVR for being (excessively noisy!). Only 3 months earlier the same garage performed the ‘sports exhaust mod’ to the car.
would have killed them tbh, possibly asked for a refund for the exhaust they fitted and courtesy car for hooning around in whilst they put the original exhaust back on.

herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
tvrgit said:
herewego said:
tvrgit said:
herewego said:
DVD’s reference reg 65 says:
(2) Exhaust systems and silencers shall be maintained in good and efficient working order and shall not after the date of manufacture be altered so as to increase the noise made by the escape of exhaust gases.

This means the exhaust must not be altered to a noise level above that when originally supplied. As I remember all vehicles when originally supplied meet European noise limits.

Are you not then breaking the law if your car is noisier than originally supplied?
Yep I think that's all that can be measured - as I said yesterday.
herewego said:
Vehicle noise standards are laid down in Directive 70/157/EEC and subsequent amendments [3], which regulates the technical approval of new vehicles and currently sets noise emission limits of 74dB(A) for passenger cars and 80dB(A) for trucks.
Ref:http://www.transportenvironment.org/module-htmlpages-display-pid-20.html

Cars have to go through a european approval procedure which includes noise of course. I believe a couple of sports car manufacturers have gained approval for slightly increased noise levels.

This suggests to me that if you modify your exhaust to exceed 74 dB(A) then you are breaking the law.
My understanding of the European Directive is that those limits are the equivalent of "European Type Approval" so that if member countries individually decide to introduce noise limits, they cannot be lower than that EC limit - in other words cars that comply with those limits cannot be banned in any member state.

It does however remain up to member countries to introduce any individual national limits, and Britain has not done so, therefore there are no noise limits on production cars in Britain.

Modifying your exhaust so that it is "louder than standard" is an offence, regardless of its measured sound level. So Kev'n'Sharon in their Corsa with an exhaust level of say 85, up from say 74 standard, would be nicked, while you psass in your standard TVR at 100 dB completely legally.

As I said yesterday, though, it's the thin edge of the wedge...

Edited by tvrgit on Monday 26th May 12:53
As far as I can see Britain does have a noise limit, it has the limit of the noise limit as originally supplied, i.e. 74 dB(A). Modifying to increase the noise level is illegal therefore the limit is 74. I don't believe TVRs were allowed to be sold at 100, why should they? Did they have special SVA, i.e did they not have to comply with EU directives?
There is no noise limit in Britain. As I said, it's up to individual EU members to decide if they want to introduce limits or not. Britain hasn't.

The EU directive only sets out the minimum that any national limit can be (if that country ewants to introduce one), not that all cars in every country have to comply with that limit.
I'm beginning to think that I'm a bit dense. Acc. to DFT we do have a limit:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/cvtf/d...

"2.14 Since 1973, new cars have been required to meet Europe-wide noise limits. Limits have progressively reduced from 82 decibels in 1976 to the current limit of 74 decibels. It would take seven new vehicles to make the same amount of noise as one produced in 1976."

tvrgit

8,470 posts

251 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
herewego said:
I'm beginning to think that I'm a bit dense. Acc. to DFT we do have a limit:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/environment/cvtf/d...

"2.14 Since 1973, new cars have been required to meet Europe-wide noise limits. Limits have progressively reduced from 82 decibels in 1976 to the current limit of 74 decibels. It would take seven new vehicles to make the same amount of noise as one produced in 1976."
To be fair, maybe it's me!

I've seen this argument loads of times before and that's the first evidence I've seen that there is a noise limit for all new cars. I suppose if that's what the DfT website says it must be right.

Brett928S2

1,504 posts

214 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
Hi smile

It says....for NEW cars....

Mine was built in 1986 and my 4.7 V8 would NEVER EVER have passed at 74 DB..

Nor would a LOT of other older cars....

All the best Brett smile

herewego

8,814 posts

212 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
It doesn't make sense to me that the UK would reject the EU limits. Also since DVDs regulation says the exhaust must not be modified louder then the limit remains as it was when registered or made or whatever. The gradual decrease since 76 explains the recent report of police with a book of noise levels.

ash1986

5 posts

190 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
first thing is, how do they determine standard? becuase as a car gets older, it gets noiser. Also what if they fit an exhaust from a aftermaket place like Ero Cap Parts? coz the aftermarkets are a little louder than facotry spec.

Also, what coppers these days have the devices to measure the sound correctly these days?

TallPaul

1,517 posts

257 months

Monday 26th May 2008
quotequote all
ash1986 said:
first thing is, how do they determine standard? becuase as a car gets older, it gets noiser. Also what if they fit an exhaust from a aftermaket place like Ero Cap Parts? coz the aftermarkets are a little louder than facotry spec.

Also, what coppers these days have the devices to measure the sound correctly these days?
No noise meter is needed. If in the opinion of the prosecuting officer, your car is louder than a standard car of similar type and age, an offence has been committed.
Technically, yes if you fitted a pattern exhaust from, say, Euro Car Parts, it may well be non-compliant. Any modification to the standard exhaust (including changing for a non genuine one) may render you liable to prosecution.
Personally, speaking as someone with a stainless system on my car, I think the risk of prosecution depends more on your driving style than anything else.

Edited by TallPaul because I carnt speel on Monday 26th May 20:51


Edited by TallPaul on Monday 26th May 20:52

streaky

19,311 posts

248 months

Tuesday 27th May 2008
quotequote all
Well, no older Tiv was ever standard (in anything).

I very much doubt any Tiv built since 1976 met the relevant EU noise standards ... I doubt that any Ferrari has (but the Italians pay little attention to EU regulations, unless they made money by them).

"Factory made" exhaust systems for cars older than 20 years must be as rare as hen's teeth, so most cars of that vintage and older (and many that are younger) will be fitted with a "non-standard" exhaust.

The law is given in Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 2329 - The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) (No. 5) Regulations 1996.

Streaky