No seatbelt in Tesco car park - enforcable?

[10 Pence Short]

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

[Dwight VanDriver]

Muse mode on......

As far as I am aware a Supermarket Car Park does not necessarily come within the definition of a 'road' under Road Traffic Act 1988 - See Clarke v Cato [1998] and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance co Ltd[1996]. It will be for a bench to decide.

It does fall within the definition of a 'Public place' which has been brought into certain offences under the Road Traffic Act - due care, Insurance etc. i.e. did drive a motor vehicle on a road OR public place etc etc.

'Road' and 'Public Places' are separate.

As far as seat belts go the requirements are under:

The Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993

Requirement for adults to wear adult belts

5.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every person—
(a) driving a motor vehicle (other than a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar);

(b) riding in a front seat of a motor vehicle (other than a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar); or

(c) riding in a rear seat of a motor car or a passenger car which is not a motor car;

shall wear an adult belt.

Note that it applies to persons driving/riding with no reference to where. Road or Public place not mentioned so anywhere?

But Section 14 RTA 1988, the authority for the Regs states

Seat belts: adults.— (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring, subject to such exceptions as may be prescribed, persons who are driving or riding in motor vehicles ON A ROAD to wear seat belts of such description as may be prescribed.

Note Public Place is not included so in a pure Public Place belts not required to be worn.

If it can be shown that Supermarket Car Park is not a road i.e. signage and restriction on those attending etc then Plod was wrong?

dvd

[10 Pence Short]

Dwight VanDriver said:

Muse mode on......

As far as I am aware a Supermarket Car Park does not necessarily come within the definition of a 'road' under Road Traffic Act 1988 - See Clarke v Cato [1998] and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance co Ltd[1996]. It will be for a bench to decide.

It does fall within the definition of a 'Public place' which has been brought into certain offences under the Road Traffic Act - due care, Insurance etc. i.e. did drive a motor vehicle on a road OR public place etc etc.

'Road' and 'Public Places' are separate.

As far as seat belts go the requirements are under:

The Motor Vehicles (Wearing of Seat Belts) Regulations 1993

Requirement for adults to wear adult belts

5.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every person—
(a) driving a motor vehicle (other than a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar);

(b) riding in a front seat of a motor vehicle (other than a two-wheeled motor cycle with or without a sidecar); or

(c) riding in a rear seat of a motor car or a passenger car which is not a motor car;

shall wear an adult belt.

Note that it applies to persons driving/riding with no reference to where. Road or Public place not mentioned so anywhere?

But Section 14 RTA 1988, the authority for the Regs states

Seat belts: adults.— (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring, subject to such exceptions as may be prescribed, persons who are driving or riding in motor vehicles ON A ROAD to wear seat belts of such description as may be prescribed.

Note Public Place is not included so in a pure Public Place belts not required to be worn.

If it can be shown that Supermarket Car Park is not a road i.e. signage and restriction on those attending etc then Plod was wrong?

dvd

It would be interesting to see the Mags deal with it, but I'd be very surprised if the result came back any different.

Have they got the minerals to try?

[OnTheOverrun]

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

[10 Pence Short]

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

You're going to have to trust me on this...

Your driveway is not a road or a public place.

Edited by 10 Pence Short on Tuesday 28th July 15:44

[Invisible man]

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

Are you happy to allow people to park there?

[OnTheOverrun]

Invisible man said:

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

Are you happy to allow people to park there?

No I'm not, but under the Road Traffic Act, to be defined as a public place, it is not necessary to have vehicular access to it, merely access by the public:

"Public Place under the Road Traffic Act

In order for it to be proevn that somewhere is a "Public Place" for the purposes of road traffic offences it must be shown by the prosicution that:

Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (eg people belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic tha is not shared by the public at large, and;

Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question.

(DPP v Vivier [1991]RTR 205)

Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:

1. A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)

2. A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)

3. The "Inward Freight Immigration Lanes" at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)

4. A field used in connection with an agricultural show (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)

5. A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)"

[esselte]

Invisible man said:

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

Are you happy to allow people to park there?

But that test fails because you're not allowed to park on lots of roads and they are public places..?

[10 Pence Short]

OnTheOverrun said:

Invisible man said:

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

Are you happy to allow people to park there?

No I'm not, but under the Road Traffic Act, to be defined as a public place, it is not necessary to have vehicular access to it, merely access by the public:

"Public Place under the Road Traffic Act

In order for it to be proevn that somewhere is a "Public Place" for the purposes of road traffic offences it must be shown by the prosicution that:

Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (eg people belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic tha is not shared by the public at large, and;

Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question.

(DPP v Vivier [1991]RTR 205)

Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:

1. A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)

2. A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)

3. The "Inward Freight Immigration Lanes" at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)

4. A field used in connection with an agricultural show (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)

5. A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)"

Notice 'Driveway' or 'Home' does not appear on that list.

Notice also that the places on the list are used by the public.

[OnTheOverrun]

10 Pence Short said:

OnTheOverrun said:

Invisible man said:

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

Are you happy to allow people to park there?

No I'm not, but under the Road Traffic Act, to be defined as a public place, it is not necessary to have vehicular access to it, merely access by the public:

"Public Place under the Road Traffic Act

In order for it to be proevn that somewhere is a "Public Place" for the purposes of road traffic offences it must be shown by the prosicution that:

Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (eg people belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic tha is not shared by the public at large, and;

Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question.

(DPP v Vivier [1991]RTR 205)

Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:

1. A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)

2. A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)

3. The "Inward Freight Immigration Lanes" at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)

4. A field used in connection with an agricultural show (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)

5. A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)"

Notice 'Driveway' or 'Home' does not appear on that list.

Notice also that the places on the list are used by the public.

OK. So you would feel confident in sitting in your car on your drive with the keys in the ignition and the engine running, having drunk a bottle of scotch safe in the knowledge that it could not be defined as a public place legally and thus not subject to a drink drive charge which only applies to public places or places to which the public have access?

[10 Pence Short]

Yes, as long as there wasn't evidence that I was intending to drive on the road.

[AndyRw]

Dwight VanDriver said:

As far as I am aware a Supermarket Car Park does not necessarily come within the definition of a 'road' under Road Traffic Act 1988 - See Clarke v Cato (1998) and Cutter v Eagle Star Insurance co Ltd(1996). It will be for a bench to decide.

While it wouldn't routinely be classed a road, I understand from a conversation I've had with a prosecuting barrister before that there are cases where they have been held to be roads in circumstances where there is a 'through route' (i.e. on entering the access 'road' there are more destinations than just the car park) and evidence is introduced that it is used as such.

OnTheOverrun said:

OK. So you would feel confident in sitting in your car on your drive with the keys in the ignition and the engine running, having drunk a bottle of scotch safe in the knowledge that it could not be defined as a public place legally and thus not subject to a drink drive charge which only applies to public places or places to which the public have access?

Yes. Evidence must be presented by the prosecution which demonstrates that not only is that place one which is open to the public, but that the public actually use it. Such evidence may be given by witnesses, taken from photographic or video evidence or even from personal knowledge of the Magistrates as to the location (but caution on that has to be exercised). Unless there is something more - like running a business from your home which attracts passers-by - your driveway would not be held to be a public place.

We recently had a drink-drive case with a Not Guilty verdict after the Magistrates were not satisfied that a garage compound behind a parade of shops, not restricted with barriers or any other physical obstruction, was a public place as there was insufficient evidence demonstrating that it was actually used by the wider public and not just the residents who parked there. No Police witnesses were called for trial - if they had been they could have given evidence that it is indeed used routinely by visitors to the shops and parents parking to collect their kids from the school around the corner.

[OnTheOverrun]

Fair enough, but the govt disagree with you and do specifically include driveways on private land as a public road:

"The following list can be found abbreviated throughout the Code. It is not intended to be a comprehensive guide, but a guide to some of the important points of law. For the precise wording of the law, please refer to the various Acts and Regulations (as amended) indicated in the Code. Abbreviations are listed below.

Most of the provisions apply on all roads throughout Great Britain, although there are some exceptions. The definition of a road in England and Wales is ‘any highway and any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes’ (RTA 1988 sect 192(1)). In Scotland, there is a similar definition which is extended to include any way over which the public have a right of passage (R(S)A 1984 sect 151(1)).

It is important to note that references to ‘road’ therefore generally include footpaths, bridleways and cycle tracks, and many roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks). In most cases, the law will apply to them and there may be additional rules for particular paths or ways. Some serious driving offences, including drink-driving offences, also apply to all public places, for example public car parks."

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Hig...

And this legal site takes a different view on the whole drunk on the driveway thing:

"What if I was in my car on my driveway having a cigarette trying to keep warm and I had no intention of driving?
There is no need for the prosecution to prove that a person was likely to drive whilst unfit or over the limit. It is for the Defendant to prove that there is no prospect of using the vehicle."

http://www.drinkdrivinglaw.co.uk/offences/in_charg...

I'm certainly no lawyer, but I certainly wouldn't want to test the defintion of this part of the law the hard way!

Edited by OnTheOverrun on Tuesday 28th July 17:56

[streaky]

Mr_annie_vxr said:

Odie said:

Am i breaking the law then if i start my car up with my seatbelt off and my door open?

No.

Why not? What if the vehicle has no door - a MiniMoke, or Willeys Jeep (for those old enough to remember them) for example? - Streaky

[dugt]

Invisible man said:

OnTheOverrun said:

10 Pence Short said:

dugt said:

10 Pence Short said:

The Road Traffic Act applies in the car park, as it's publicly accessable 'road'. Yes the FPN can and will stand, unless they choose to take the matter to the Magistrates. Bear in mind they admitted they took their belts off whilst driving.

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

doug

A supermarket is a public place, accessible to the public. The Road Traffic Act applies.

Your driveway is a private drive which is not open to the public, the Road Traffic Act does not apply.

You can argue all you want, you will still be wrong.

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

Are you happy to allow people to park there?

if they paid enough they could, and surely tescos is a private place, there just letting you in, they could quite easily close the gates now and never let anyone else in again

doug

[AndyRw]

OnTheOverrun said:

...roadways and driveways on private land (including many car parks)...

A roadway or driveway on private land CAN be a public place - I didn't say they couldn't. But by and large they aren't going to be - as I said it depends on the reality. IF you give cause for the general public to access your drive, as opposed to a select group - guests, postman, workmen, etc... - then it could well be a public place.

Have a read of this extract of the Police National Legal Database (PNLD).

OnTheOverrun said:

And this legal site takes a different view on the whole drunk on the driveway thing:

"What if I was in my car on my driveway having a cigarette trying to keep warm and I had no intention of driving?
There is no need for the prosecution to prove that a person was likely to drive whilst unfit or over the limit. It is for the Defendant to prove that there is no prospect of using the vehicle."

I think they're more trying to cover the 'I wasn't intending to drive defence' than the 'is my driveway relevant for drink-drive' question. The prosecution have to prove it was a public place or a road, for those offences where it is specifically stated.

dugt said:

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

They can say that. But there is an implied consent for the general public to enter and use the car park, and that is what happens. Denying one or two people would not prevent it being a public place. Turn it into a members only store and it might be different.

dugt said:

i have a carridge driveway, you can drive in one, and out the other, if i let anyone drive round it, would the road traffic act apply? would i have to wear a seatbelt to drive on my drive?

If you let anyone drive round it - and they do so - it could well become a public place and the relevant bits of the RTA would apply. It'd be one for a Court to decide if a case was brought.

OnTheOverrun said:

My driveway is open to the public and legally has implied right of access so that the postman, the paperboy and people who want to ring my bell can walk up it. I believe I would have to put up a sign to stop it being publicly accessible wouldn't I?

See DPP v Greenwood 1997, and the summary in the link before. The fact people walk up to your door doesn't make it public by default. A sign is generally insufficent to prevent it being a public place for these purposes.

[OnTheOverrun]

AndyRw said:

A roadway or driveway on private land CAN be a public place - I didn't say they couldn't. But by and large they aren't going to be - as I said it depends on the reality. IF you give cause for the general public to access your drive, as opposed to a select group - guests, postman, workmen, etc... - then it could well be a public place.

Have a read of this extract of the Police National Legal Database (PNLD).

See DPP v Greenwood 1997, and the summary in the link before. The fact people walk up to your door doesn't make it public by default. A sign is generally insufficent to prevent it being a public place for these purposes.

Yes, I wasn't suggesting that every private driveway was automatically a public place, just that should the prosecution decide to make it such to obtain a conviction, they would have little trouble.

To quote from your link an example of a public place:

"Copell v DPP 1990. An "off the road parking bay" adjacent to a highway with no physical impediment between the road and the bay was held to be a public place."

That is a perfect description of my private driveway, so I suggest it would be easy to make it appear so as in addition to particular groups (posties etc) I have kids asking for balls back, people chasing loose dogs, cold-callers, jehovahs witnesses and friends asking if I'm coming to the pub amongst many others.

Like I say, I'm not arguing, merely exploring the extent to which this is open to interpretation and that I would not like to test the prosecutions ability to convince a court my drive is a public place with relative ease.

[fluffnik]

Soovy said:

Yes.

Done.


They'll have to suck it up.

...then work to destroy their oppressors.

Together we can defeat the police state.

[fluffnik]

shirt said:

its only £30 anyway, not worth defending imo. even if you have a genuine reason they still do you for it.

Even at 30 quid it's a stinky unjust thief of a law that needs harassed into oblivion.

[dugt]

AndyRw said:

dugt said:

how can it be the road traffic act apply, its part of tescos site, and they could turn you down and say they dont want you to come in, there is nothing to stop them

They can say that. But there is an implied consent for the general public to enter and use the car park, and that is what happens. Denying one or two people would not prevent it being a public place. Turn it into a members only store and it might be different.

most tescos have a sign saying that you have to shop in tescos to use the car park, surely then by entering the car park, you are entering into a "contract" (ok its not signed etc) that you are going to be a perspective customer, and tescos have let the space to you, in their car park, for free, to enable you to buy goods with minimal inconvenience

doug