First (secondhand) caterham.. too many questions!

First (secondhand) caterham.. too many questions!

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Discussion

Matt W

153 posts

237 months

Friday 17th February 2017
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The car linked to on Facebook above is now being advertised on here.

It belongs to my Dad and is a truly great car. Feel free to let me know if you have any questions.

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Wednesday 22nd February 2017
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I would say that deciding on big attributes like six or five speed and with/without LSD is key. They are quite costly upgrades to be done, whereas many others, like widetrack or aftermarket suspension are less by comparison, and tend to be new parts.

Personally, if you plan to track it, I'd give up the comfort factor of five speed for the two or three long journeys to LE Mans etc each year and go six. Likewise, I'd look for a car with an LSD. However, my first Caterham had neither of these and it was a hoot. That said, I looked into upgrading it to my ideal spec and ended up selling it and buying a different car as it was cheaper and easier. But at the end of the day, you're either having lots of fun, or lots and lots of fun. It's not like any Seven is an awful car to be in on track.

No connection, but the linked car does look very good. The Seven community is small, so it's often possible to reach out to owners or folks who know the car and can vouch for it.

Also the current "standard" chassis is known as the S3, whereas for some unknown reason, the bigger chassis is known as SV (V being a Roman numeral) not an S5. Maybe it's an Audi thing?

carphotographer

500 posts

194 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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I brought my first 7 knowing very little about the marque. All i knew and what my budget allowed was a k series. It was a great first car but the more I drove it, the more I got to know about the car and chatting to other owners it wasn't my ideal spec car and decided to sell as it was cheaper to get my ideal spec then spend money with the LSD and engine upgrade.

So my ideal spec car would have a LSD, 5 speed gearbox, wide track, 13" and 145-155bhp. which by coincidence is the ideal spec the Director of Motorsport at Caterham Cars said would be for his l 7 .


framerateuk

2,730 posts

183 months

Friday 24th February 2017
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bcr5784 said:
That does suggest that if you aren't that tall you would need to consider whether lowered floors were compatible with your choice of seats (race obviously lower) and windscreen.
Indeed, mine has the normal leather seats, but I would definitely be too low in tillets.

When the other half drives the car she sits on an extra piece of foam that I've cut to shape and covered.

upsidedownmark

Original Poster:

2,120 posts

134 months

Friday 24th February 2017
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Thanks (again) for all the comments - been travelling for a week and just catching up..

Budget is probably capped at 15k. I would like an LSD, although having been in a non LSD car with a regular driver I didn't feel the lack held it back.. then had a ride with someone who could really pedal and kinda saw the point, but I'm not sure I'll be able to push that hard - I don't see it as a dealbreaker. That was a 6 speed car, so hard to compare.. but the truth is I can't see me getting a 6 speed or an LSD at my budget.

I'm also looking for something a bit tidy rather than the ex-racer vibe. I'm more inclined towards something tidy that then needs changing/upgrading oily bits than something with all the right mechanicals that needs a repaint.. perhaps because I'd be happy enough swapping a box myself, but paint is beyond my scope (and expensive).

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Friday 24th February 2017
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upsidedownmark said:
Stuff
Fair enough. I went literally the opposite direction - all the mechanicals, but scruffy, so if I got gravel rash on track I'd not worry.

My point on replacing items wasn't necessarily the labour, but the part cost. A six speed box is very expensive. I'd have thought £15k would get you a very good k series car and I've definitely seen modified non-R cars with ~150bhp, lsd and various carbon bits pop up below that. There's a good facebook community too - three separate, but liked groups, Caterham Owners, Caterham Techtalk and Caterham Marketplace. Worth joining if you're a facebooker.



upsidedownmark

Original Poster:

2,120 posts

134 months

Sunday 26th February 2017
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Smitters said:
I'd have thought £15k would get you a very good k series car and I've definitely seen modified non-R cars with ~150bhp, lsd and various carbon bits pop up below that.
I am indeed now on the facebook group mentioned.. but I'm still seeing a lack of 6 speed and/or LSD cars. It's not so much that they're more expensive, I'm just not seeing cars available with those things (other than the orange one.. which I want to want but just isn't apealing to me!)

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Thursday 2nd March 2017
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upsidedownmark said:
I am indeed now on the facebook group mentioned.. but I'm still seeing a lack of 6 speed and/or LSD cars. It's not so much that they're more expensive, I'm just not seeing cars available with those things (other than the orange one.. which I want to want but just isn't apealing to me!)
There's a K series car just popped up on the facebook group. Pic - https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1020849863...

Might be worth checking in with the owner? Pretty new, so might be strong money, but you never know.

carphotographer

500 posts

194 months

Saturday 11th March 2017
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upsidedownmark

Original Poster:

2,120 posts

134 months

Monday 13th March 2017
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Follow up question..

So I've looked at a few, and I guess I'm conditioned to buying 'normal' cars, where I'd always look for a solid history file. Now I guess I didn't expect a book with stamps, but at least a fairly solid pile of receipts. This doesn't seem to be the case.. is this normal?

In this case I'm pretty happy the cars are sound, it's more a resale concern.

Cheers smile

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Monday 13th March 2017
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It depends a bit - people who do their own work, or just tinker, may not note down everything that they do, so to an extent you have to take their word for the date of an oil change. And to be fair, a Caterham owner is perhaps (sweeping generalisation here) less likely to spin you a yarn than someone selling a £1000 Civic Type R which "deffo had a big service last month, but I can't find the bill" and "only has one month's MOT, but it'll sail through, no worries".

That aside, I would be a lot happier buying from someone who kept their receipts organised, even if it was the receipt for the oil, filter and gaskets from the oil change. I may be wrong to do so, but I do judge a seller by their paperwork as much as the apparent condition of the car. Mine came with two box-files...

Steve Campbell

2,110 posts

167 months

Monday 13th March 2017
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Agree with above. I personally keep a box file that I shove all my receipts, including the small stuff. I clear it out every now and again when it gets full of all the crap that no one would be interested in !!!

A decent chat with current owner would give you a flavour of the kind of owner they are. If they have had it serviced, they should have some receipts.

If no receipts, I'd ask them follow-on questions eg "when did the oil get changed" to "what oil does it take and where do you source it from".....might open up whether they know much.....if they get it serviced, who by and where are they ?

Also take a look at previous MOT's and mileage / year. Just gives an idea of occasional blatter or otherwise. There isn't a good or bad here, just better understanding of the history. A car that has only done 500/year might have more problems than a 10k per year track car.

In terms of re-sale value, it's more what you do than the previous owner, so if you are comfortable, the lack of receipts from current wouldn't be a deal breaker for the right car for me. It's more about the level of comfort you've got that the car has been well looked after....receipts are only part of the story (all be it a strong evidence base of care !)

Edited by Steve Campbell on Monday 13th March 13:25

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Monday 13th March 2017
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There are actually a few interesting Sevens in the PH classifieds right now. PT have some cars that are quite interesting, Millwood even have a 1.4 Supersport with a dry sump!

I know you said you'd prefer a tidy car, but I just have to pop this here. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c... Spartan interior and a ding or two on the rear wings, but a lot of bits for your pennies. This is one of the better value cars I've seen for a while, IMHO of course. No connection to seller etc etc.

upsidedownmark

Original Poster:

2,120 posts

134 months

Monday 13th March 2017
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That (orange) one already came up earlier smile I hear ya, but as it's primarily a toy I want it to be nice, and I think it's going to take longer for me to get frustrated with (say) an open diff than it is for me to look at a slightly battered car and feel dissatisfied.

Considered the 1.4, but that seems like a step too far down in power.. and yes, PT have some interesting cars.. mostly ex-racecar, hence history question wink

Problem is it's a fair chunk of cash to me and I'm partly justifying it on the idea that the resale value on caterhams seems to be pretty decent. I have other folks telling me not to look at anything south of 200hp, and to buy a westfield! Historically I seem to buy at the wrong time, just before cars become unpopular / values plumet (impreza turbo, 986 boxster). I'm also a little unsure if I'll gel with it, but I do like the light, involving and analogue ethos generally.. and I've tracked some quite quick bikes (but falling off them hurts), so not much is going to blow me away in terms of acceleration.. basically I'm getting analysis paralysis biggrin

Even considering looking at elises.. or just giving up on the idea entirely!

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Tuesday 14th March 2017
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upsidedownmark said:
Stuff
Sorry - this ended up being longer than I intended. TLDR - don't give up! Buy a Caterham

Fair enough. Each car and individual is a unique combo and I totally get where you're coming from on the cosmetic side. Mine does drive me nuts when I'm looking at it. I'd love to put some tidy carbon wings on, but I also know I'm a donkey sometimes and would hit a cone on my first trackday and remove said wing again! The bonus is I forget all about the chipped paint on the bonnet/wings/scuttle when I'm pressing on!

I would avoid a 1.4. Coming from bikes, as you say, straight line speed isn't going to wow you without going big power to weight, but a 1.4 really suffers at higher road speeds IMHO, popping in a 50-70mph acceleration to overtake on an a-road isn't as easy as you'd like, especially with a windscreen.

I believe that after the initial depreciation, which on the cars you're looking at is well past, a well maintained Caterham should only hit the owner the for running costs. I believe I could sell mine for close to, if not a bit more than I paid for it. It will always be limited by its ex-race history and scruffy body work. I have replaced the steering rack, de deon, suspension and bushes (may add value), serviced it well, treated and improved the chassis protection, added a removable wheel boss and generally tidied the thing up, but I wouldn't expect any of that to add significant value, just maintain it.

Regards the market, it's a tricksy thing. I think Caterhams are popular right now, and values seem strong, even for spring, but this may be because dealers are being optimistic on pricing, which tends to lead private pricing somewhat. Unless you're adding stratospheric miles, I can't see the price shifting more than 10% if you buy and then sell privately within 5 years. Elises are creeping up in value now, especially with the 60th anniversary adding some focus to the brand. If you really want one of those, now is the time. I don't think Westfields hold their value as well, but they are certainly in a better place than the more home-brew kit cars

I did a little dance between an Elise and a Caterham and to be truthful, I really wish I had an Elise sometimes. I would drive it to work a lot more and enjoy the car for small journeys made special by being in the Elise, whereas having to sit at 2000rpm for five minutes to warm the engine up gets quite old, quite quickly (this is a trait of my car - not all Caterhams I should add!). Would I drive it as hard on track though, knowing the cost of replacing a front clip, versus being able to replace my own GRP cycle wing? Probably not, because I have a small budget and a two year old I'd rather spend my money on.

What I've decided to do instead is make mine more friendly and comfortable on the road, and address some of the niggling little cosmetic issues that don't affect the drive, but do affect how I feel about the car.

Definitely don't give up. I would say far from having analysis paralysis, you're in a great position, because a wide range of cosmetically good cars fall into your category, as opposed to rigidly looking for one specification AND cosmetically good cars. How many cars have you seen that are sub £15k, have a dry sump, LSD, six speed box and tillet seats? I'll bet not many, if any. Which is why I took a loan out and ended up having two Caterhams for a while so I could sell my old one at my leisure and make sure I got the spec I really wanted. The car for you is out there. Its just a matter of finding it. A few calls to the like of Ian at PT and Jon Vicker at Millwood might also reveal some owners that are thinking of selling but don't have a car on the market yet.

upsidedownmark

Original Poster:

2,120 posts

134 months

Tuesday 14th March 2017
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Thanks - far from being too long, thoughts are very much appreciated. Elise dance for exactly the same reasons biggrin

I know I'll drive whatever hard on track; I'm congenitally incapable of not doing so, afraid an elise is gonna leave me wishing I had a caterham! Then again I loved my old mx5 more than anything I've owned!

Edited by upsidedownmark on Tuesday 14th March 11:43

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Tuesday 14th March 2017
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I am a long term Caterham owner (been driving them continuously for over 15 years). But as much as I love Sevens, I ended up buying an Elise to keep it company.

Reasons are that the Elise is just more useable. It also is at least as good a driver's car and there is a good club and plenty of opportunities to upgrade.

I went for an S1 Sport 160 which I have made quite a few modifications (faster steering rack, Nitron dampers, 2ubular exhaust etc).

Much as I love them both, the Lotus is the one I would keep as I can use it year round including take my 4 month old son out in it, take it to the supermarket and then take in a trackday.

And with a proper suspension set up, they are very playful and as benign on limit as the Caterham. Great cars!

Here's mine in the middle of Wales:


BertBert

18,953 posts

210 months

Tuesday 14th March 2017
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upsidedownmark said:
That (orange) one already came up earlier smile I hear ya, but as it's primarily a toy I want it to be nice, and I think it's going to take longer for me to get frustrated with (say) an open diff than it is for me to look at a slightly battered car and feel dissatisfied.
I'd urge you to think differently. I think that there is always a set of things, plus condition, plus how much we trust the seller, plus how much the colour grabs us, plus, plus, plus that will set the pulses racing when buying the car of our dreams.

I think you may be chasing the wrong criteria as a prospective Caterham owner. I'd care to bet that if you went to see the orange car and went for a test drive, you would be blown away by it and instantly in love, want it!

There is a chance that it is a pile of worn out race poo, but I'm guessing not. 155bhp k-series, 6-speed, LSD, widetrack, tillets, for 13k after haggling. Are you mad?

Worth checking on brakes, but I bet it's the normal big brakes.

Just get it bought before I get there!

Bert

bcr5784

7,102 posts

144 months

Wednesday 15th March 2017
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upsidedownmark said:
Thanks - far from being too long, thoughts are very much appreciated. Elise dance for exactly the same reasons biggrin

I know I'll drive whatever hard on track; I'm congenitally incapable of not doing so, afraid an elise is gonna leave me wishing I had a caterham! Then again I loved my old mx5 more than anything I've owned!

Edited by upsidedownmark on Tuesday 14th March 11:43
I have to agree that the Elise is far more useable than a Caterham, and just as capable - but having said that and used both an S1 and a Caterham as a daily covering 10k in a year, it's the Caterham that grabbed me more. It's obviously entirely subjective, but somehow, whatever the journey, the Caterham grabbed me by the balls and said "come on. Drive!".

Smitters

3,995 posts

156 months

Wednesday 15th March 2017
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SidewaysSi said:
This is not helpful to me or the OP. We're going to have to save for two cars now...

There's a black Elise in Scotland to die for. So, so much want.


Edited by Smitters on Wednesday 15th March 10:02